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RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:56:21 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire
Aha, we're getting down to it.  It's too nice?  Hallmark naivety?  Immature and a blanket statement.

I'm afraid I don't know what this means?  Are you responding to yourself?


I kind of read it that she took a amalgamation of peoples thoughts who responded and words and put them altogether.
 
Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________


RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:56:51 AM   
CreativeDominant


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The idea of "submission as a gift" was most recently discussed on the "Just a Vent" thread.  There were some damn good replies in there.  I posted twice and will just post this from my last post as I think it addresses a lot of what you are saying...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

I know the whole "gift" thing drives people (and Me) crazy at times. So much so that I get subs to read several articles about whether it is or is not a gift and then encourage them to come to their own position. I think some of the problem lies in people's definition of the word gift. Most seem to take it in terms of a "present" ... something they receive for a special occasion ... and that seems to bring about a very negative response, such as seen in this thread. It does that with Me too if I look at it that way. However, a look in a dictionary or 3 is interesting:

Pronunciation: 'gift
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse, something given, talent; akin to Old English giefan to give
1 : a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2 : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3 : the act, right, or power of giving

I see all 3 meanings of "gift" here as relevant ...
1. a particular capacity or talent (can someone have the "gift" then of being submissive?);
2. something that is freely given (perhaps as opposed to something which is taken? As I subscribe to the belief that a Dominant can't "take, command or demand" someone's submission (and I rather feel that was what the OP was venting about) ... I believe that at best, they can only inspire it to be "given" or transferred to them); and
3. the act or power of giving (isn't that what power exchange is about? The submissive exercising their power of giving when they yield control of various things to the Dominant?)

I find it fascinating that the dictionary I used (Merriam Webster) doesn't put the "present" aspect of the word gift in its top 3 meanings. Yourdictionary has the same 3 meanings but in a different order. The Cambridge was the first one to put the "present" aspect (as in birthday or wedding gift) at the top.

Comments anyone?
Maam Jay aka violet[A]



Though I do not feel as "Merriam-Webster bitch-slapped" as Whip, I will concede that the above makes sense....except for Number 2.  I think this is the area where most of us have wound up seeing it as a "present" when the phrase "submission is a gift" is uttered.

And what is so bad about a present...or gift?  Welllllllllllllll, when given as stated:  voluntarily transferred to another WITHOUT compensation...then there is nothing wrong.  One problem is that, many times, that present comes with all sorts of strings, not all of them on the surface so that they are seen and accepted as being there.  Another problem is that many people think that the present they give is much shinier and much prettier and worth much more than it is and that the "gift" you give them in return no way measures up to the "sacrifice" sustained by them in giving theirs...even though they are supposed to "give theirs voluntarily (because they want to) without (thought of) compensation".

I think I'd almost rather have them think of their submission in the Number 1 sense:  They feel that they have the gift of submission and they know that, while it is useful and significant, there are plenty out there who also have been "gifted" with the art of submission.  Therefore, what they are choosing to do is not just present their submission to a dominant but understand that they are getting something in return and what is taking place is a mutually wanted exchange of power.

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 7:57:03 AM   
DawnFire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

So the phrase has picked up some meaning along the way, the negative attributes that are now attached to the phrase aren't ones I'd like to have attached to my profile.  I suppose it's time to revamp it again.

 
Ok -
I haven't read your profile, but now I am assuming that you have that submission is a gift within it?
Why are you changing your view, just because some people feel that submission isn;t a gift, in case it is viewed as wrong?  In my mind, you are then isolating yourself from those who do believe that submission is a gift - which seems to be something you adhere to - so you are basically not trusting yourself or your own thoughts, but going with the whole negativity thought?
 
If you have it in your profile, you have it there for a reason that you believe it is a gift?  If you now deny that just because you are afraid it will place negative overtones in your profile, you are not only denying yourself, but in effect, making a false statement to those who may now be attracted to your profile because you do not have it there.
 
Just a thought,
Peace
the.dark.

 
 
Lol, a change of oppinions is not being untrue to myself.  I understand where everyone is coming from and I feel many of the same things.  And I can express the same veiw without using "submission is a gift."  My veiw that a submissive and her or his needs, wants, and opinions should always be respected.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:00:29 AM   
RCdc


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Thats cool.  If your opinion has changed that's different to changing a profile because you don't want to come across as negative in other peoples view (which is how I read the original statement).
 
Peace
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:02:53 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

My veiw that a submissive and her or his needs, wants, and opinions should always be respected.


You might want to be careful when using absolute statements, like "always".  I can think of many people's needs, wants and opinions that I do not (and will not) respect.  I assume that examples aren't necessary.
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:03:35 AM   
Synocense


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Two cents worth:

To submit is a gift. If this is true, then to dominate is a gift. Correct? But you don't hear THAT too often, do you? When I enter a relationship it must be mutually satisfying, ying and yang and back and forth and all that jazz. Gift my rosey butt : )  It is arrogant and unrealistic to believe that what YOU have to give is a gift, therefore it is ultimately special. It is an agreement, on the tongues of those involved, that you will both provide what is needed to make the relationship work - no matter the dynamics. "Service is a two-way street"

Sincerely,
Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?


(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:05:36 AM   
DawnFire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

My veiw that a submissive and her or his needs, wants, and opinions should always be respected.


You might want to be careful when using absolute statements, like "always".  I can think of many people's needs, wants and opinions that I do not (and will not) respect.  I assume that examples aren't necessary.
 
John



Lol, point taken.  Although respect and agree with are two different things.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:08:31 AM   
cumulus


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Submission is actually a Hickory Farms Beef and Cheese gift. Or maybe just a summer sausage. Yeah. It's a summer sausage.
 
Why the hell does it matter? Why can't it just be whatever the people in a relationship say it is?
 
Submissive - "unresistingly or humbly obedient". Looks pretty straightforward to me. Is the "sub in question" calling her obedience a gift? Yes? No? Ok. Nothing to see here. Move along.

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Regards,
Cumulus

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:10:47 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

Although respect and agree with are two different things.


Though they often go hand in hand.  For example, I neither agree with, nor respect, the opinion that there is a "one true way" of BDSM.  It's not deserving of my respect. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:13:05 AM   
chiaThePet


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camille65 said;

It does seem to be one of those things that sparks instant ridicule  .
All I know is that he insists that 'I' am the gift to him. Not my submission but the whole package of me. Thank all the little green gods there is a No Return Policy!

Bingo! submission isn't the gift, the submissives themselves are. And as the
Dominant is also a gift to the submissive, it is a beautiful exchange of gifts.
Given of one another for all those reasons we do such. How wonderful
it is to be presented with a bright and shinning surprise, glorious on the
outside, full of mystery and discovery within. Oh how it makes us feel!

Of course, sometimes the gift is the wrong shape, size or fit, and will be
exchanged, along with the obvious re-gifting that quietly takes place.
But there's already a mulitude of topics addressing such here at the
glorious collarme hive.

"Brown paper packages wrapped up with strings,
(maybe it's bondage) one of my favorite things."

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:15:24 AM   
Missokyst


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I tend more to see dominance as the gift.  The need to cater, spoil, submit is often overwhelming to me.  Dominance reigns that need in and focuses it into an acceptable direction.  For me, dominance is the gift of peace.
But in general, my attitude is that neither is a gift, submission or dominance.  It is just a remarkable blessing for us both.
Kyst


_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:16:33 AM   
DawnFire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

Although respect and agree with are two different things.


Though they often go hand in hand.  For example, I neither agree with, nor respect, the opinion that there is a "one true way" of BDSM.  It's not deserving of my respect. 
 
John



So true.

I love all these opinions.  Thanks everyone.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:36:53 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Let's just say that there is an extremely high correlation between those who seriously view their submission as a gift, and those who end up in short term (less than a year) relationships which end in bad heartbreak.


One sees the "submission is a gift" crap in chatrooms and from chatrooms spring many of the other BS things we get to deal with like "dominants are perfect" and the like.  LA is right on the money, it irritates those of us who have seen 10,000 women come into the scene saying "submission is a gift" and find their "perfect dominant" and have their heart broken a few weeks or months later.    It is the equivalent of the sort of sex info junior high kids have like "pull out before you cum and she can't get pregnant" or "anal sex isn't sex" or other silliness.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:39:58 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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if submission is a gift...can it be bought at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Sears, or other similar stores? Maybe Halmark sells it...after all, they care to give the very best...LOL

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Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:44:06 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am not interested in "today I will give my gift to Michael but tomorrow I might give it to Fred". 


Unfortunately, that's the nature of consensual relationships of any kind.  I think you're confusing possibility with probability.  While it's always possible that your submissive (or mine, or anyone else's) may decide to submit to Fred tomorrow, it's not very probable (Fred being a loser and all).  Still, that slim possibility always exists because of that pesky issue of consent.
 
John


John, I am not confusing anything, you just weren't able to grasp my point.  I was not speaking of relationships, I was speaking of feelings of submissiveness.  I don't believe people can turn it on and off.  Someone either evokes feelings of submiseness in you or they don't.  You are right in they can choose whether or not to act on those feelings but they just cannot choose whether or not to HAVE those feelings.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:45:28 AM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

i've often thought of my submission as a curse. if it were a gift, you'd think someone out there would except it.

maybe i'm wrong about this, but i am curious if anyone else feels the same way..that submission can often times be a curse



you're not alone in this. i thought of my submissiveness as a curse all my life, until i met my Master. hopefully when you find that One they'll show you that it doesn't have to be a curse.

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:48:56 AM   
daddysprop247


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there are many reasons why i dislike the "submission is a gift" idealogy, most of which have already been listed. but one of my main issues with it is that it makes the implication that submission is conscious choice (after all, you "choose" to give someone a gift), and to say that submission is a choice implies that it's not a constant state, and is something that can be switched on and off. i tend to view submissiveness as a personality trait, it's there or it isn't. my other issue with the gift idea is that it always comes across somewhat manipulative...like i'm giving you this gift, and if you don't toe the line, i can take it right back!

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:49:43 AM   
leatherette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DawnFire

Aha, we're getting down to it.  It's too nice?  Hallmark naivety?  Immature and a blanket statement.


I think so. I get what is being expressed here and it's different, funny and actually close to point description of the mood of those who use the phrase.
My apologies to any but : "It is a G-i-Ft-ft-FT"  is often said with a petulant whine.

Hallmark cards = trite, cliche'd, vague, naive, cutesy, bland, generic sentiments on stock card with generally poor, unimaginative graphics.

( I make my own cards to go along with greetings and material presents given to those I care for)

Pardon my ennui and thanks to everyone who explained this "phenonenon" today.

Good luck and love to you Dawn Fire
leatherette

(in reply to DawnFire)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 8:51:24 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

i've often thought of my submission as a curse. if it were a gift, you'd think someone out there would except it.

maybe i'm wrong about this, but i am curious if anyone else feels the same way..that submission can often times be a curse



you're not alone in this. i thought of my submissiveness as a curse all my life, until i met my Master. hopefully when you find that One they'll show you that it doesn't have to be a curse.


you mean "if"?


_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: "Submission is a Gift" - 8/1/2007 9:18:54 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

You are right in they can choose whether or not to act on those feelings but they just cannot choose whether or not to HAVE those feelings.


You're absolutely right, in my opinion (for what it's worth).  But in accepting that, you have to accept that they also have no control over the fact that those feelings can (and do) come and go.  That is not a choice either. 
 
"Feeling" submissive is not always a forever thing, just as being in love does not always last a lifetime.  That does not mean that in either case someone was "lying" about who they are, and what they feel.  Just because someone evokes feelings of submission from an individual today does not mean that they will do so always, for many reasons. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 60
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