"Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/2/2007 11:27:40 PM)

What does the phrase "Pushing someone's (BDSM) limits" mean for you? (whether you are a Dominant , or a submissive.)

After reading a few threads today, it occurred to me this is one of those phrases (for me anyway) that I see and hear so often, that I think I am positive I really know what it means - when actually, it's not very clear to me what it really means.

The phrase "Safe, Sane and Consensual" is kind of like that for me, too - I know what "consensual" means, but I think what constitutes "safe" or "sane" could be up for grabs...(but that's a whole other, separate discussion I guess.) 

Anyway -I was talking with someone about a month ago about this, and they told me:

"Well, it should be obvious what it means"
Actually, it's not. 

And I hear this phrase tossed around blithely a lot, as if someone saying it is some "auto-guarantee" that should make someone else feel "instantly safe", in someone else's hands (and for some people, I think it also means that they think you should be willing to take that statement at face-value, without asking any "follow-up" questions.)  

They can say, for instance: "I'll test your limits - but not "cross" them"  OR "I'll push your boundaries, but not violate you" - And so on.
Hmmm. And? - What's that mean, exactly?

Boundaries are, well - boundaries. There is something static (as opposed to movable) implied in the word "boundary" (to me). Not that I mind (occasionally) pushing them (or having them pushed).

**Do you tell someone else when you think you have a right to "push" them, and just when you're going to do that? Or just consider "pushing" them to be an automatic "part of the BDSM and D/s deal"?

I am not arguing "Pro" or  "Con" here, just wondering about it. Something about the phrase just strikes me as slightly strange. Not the idea, necessarily, but the way the idea is worded strikes me as a little weird. Who do I write to about this? hehe....just kidding.

For me, it means someone might end up getting a few extra swats with a strap (than they thought they were going to maybe get) during a "scene" - but certainly not violating any agreed-upon "Hard Limits." 

Although apparently for some folks, from what I've read, some think it's okay for someone to "push" even their "Hard Limits" (or maybe, were I in "submissive" mode, I'd receive more swats than I thought I was getting (I am a Switch). Different strokes for different folks, and all of that - but I am wondering what people think.

**I am just not too clear on what the word "Push" means - does it mean violate? Increase someone's capacity to tolerate pain or discomfort? Or what? Maybe I am "hair-splitting" - but this whole topic area really has me thinking, for some reason.

What does "Pushing someone's limits" mean for you?
 
Do you think someone needs to tell you if they are going to do it before-hand, or do you consider it to be their/Your "right" to practice this anytime?

Just wondering. Thanks for any replies. 

P.S.* I have to get to sleep  in a few minutes, as I have a very busy day tommorrow, but this topic was on my mind, and I thought it was a thought-provoking enough question that I didn't want to forget about it posting it - but I will check in tommorrow and read replies. And thanks to anyone who posts a reply.

-Susan



angelslave77 -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/2/2007 11:35:31 PM)

To me it would consitute pushing my soft limits (hard limits are just that and to even attempt to push them would mean the end of scene possibly even end of relationship). But to even go so far as to push  soft limits would depend on the mood, the scene and the Dom, there would have to be a hell of a lot of trust for me to allow someone to push those limits.

The other way it could be used I guess would be pain limits. Pushing you beyond what the mind percieves to your pain limit.

Thats my thoughts on it anyway



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/2/2007 11:38:01 PM)

I happen to agree with you (but am wondering what others think, too, and don't really care what others do - I am just curious what they think about this). Thanks for answering, I appreciate the reply.

- Susan



KiandPhoenix -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/2/2007 11:59:35 PM)

Pushing limits for Phoenix comes in several forms. During a scene I might get her to a point where she is just about to safe word out. I know her body well enough though that I wont be doing any damage if I choose to do this. So I can agree with the few extra swats.
 
Another way I have pushed her limits is in social situations. When not at work, she is a shy social person who has trouble speaking to strangers. At a local meeting once I simply told her to go make a friend. Another time I sent her off with my walking staff to show someone who was admiring it. In the end it helps her grow socially.
 
The last example I will give is that she has a dislike for feet. She finds them disgusting. As a punishment for a serious offence she might have to give me a pedicure, and to her it is a horrible thing. When we first got together though, knowing her dislike, I told her the one way she could always show her submission was to kiss my feet. She does it occasionally. I never order her to do it, but when she feels like truly showing me that she is mine, she will often choose to show me in that way.
 
So after typing it all out, I guess to me it is a matter of doing something that makes your submissive uncomfortable slightly, typically for the benefit of their growth.
 ~Ki



LadyHeart -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:00:38 AM)

Gets on hobby horse....

I really dislike the blurry way limits have now come to be defined. It may be OK in established relationships, but it's fraught with peril where new play partners are concerned. To me, a limit is something I do not have consent to do. Period. Anything else is a strong dislike. So there's no question of "pushing a limit"  Most of those who think otherwise seem to be in long term relationships, but for those who play casually with others, it's a mine field. All I can say is - make sure you're both reading from the same page of the book before making any assumptions.

Gets off hobby horse and walks into the sunset tapping riding crop against leg...

:))
LH



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:07:33 AM)

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. - Susan



mstrjx -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:11:59 AM)

Limits can be an activity, or they can be on something more oblique.  Like a pain scale, for instance.

Let's say that I'm bringing pain to a person, and I achieve a 45 on a scale of 100.  I sense that that person cannot take any more, so I stop.  The next time we play (tomorrow, the next day, the next week), we engage in more painplay, and somehow the pain is driven to a 55 before I sense that the recipient is about to 'break' (or use a safe word, or somesuch).  In essence, I have pushed a limit (or a limit at a particular point in time).

Years and years ago, I was in a relationship with a submissive who did not wish to engage in any anal activity at all (other than painplay on the ass itself).  No way, no how, not going there.  No rimming, no toys, no sex, nothing, nada, zip.  I didn't particularly think this was 'valid' (for reasons of my own), and expressed interest that at some point I would be able to convince her otherwise.  It was a process to be certain, but once it was done, anal insertion, whether it be toys, plugs, or 'me', was one of her favorite activities.  In the end (ha, he said 'end') it was all consensual, but it was definitely pushing what at the time was a 'hard' limit.

Jeff



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:14:39 AM)

Thanks mstrjx. - Susan



MissIsis -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:16:58 AM)

Limits are just that.  Someone who is mine, I may push them on occasion, but it would be something that was clearly talked about a lot & renegotiated. Very often, I find out someone telling me about a limit they have.  In discussing the limit, I often find out that it may not be the actual thing they have a limit for, but maybe just a small part of a certain activity.   There have been times, the submissive has asked for a renegotiation of their limit, as they have learned to trust me & have let go of some things.  Limits are something that very often change for people, & need to be renegotiated from time to time. 

Someone who is just someone I am playing with, I have no interest in pushing it.  They don't know me & I will not break their trust they gave me when they put themselves in my hands for that time.  



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:20:29 AM)

Thank you, MissIsis. - Susan



KiandPhoenix -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:22:46 AM)

The reason for pushing a limit was not asked. Therefore I did not address thae question "Why would you push someones limits".

I push my some limits of my lady because she has asked for me help in growing in those areas. I would never presume to push a limit of a play partner. If I know you well enough to play, then I know your limits, and know where you need me to stop. I don't just pick up a whip, grab the nearest sub, and give them what I have decided they want, and what limits to ignore. I have never pushed a hard limit, nor will I without the specific request from the person who told me it was there hard limit.

~Ki



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:27:21 AM)

KiandPhoenix -I'm interested in why people push someone's limits, too - maybe it should have been part of the question (and thanks for the reply).

And thank you to LadyHeart (I think I find the general definition of "limits" becoming a bit blurry, too. Good advice. Thanks).

- Susan



popeye1250 -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:44:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

KiandPhoenix -I'm interested in why people push someone's limits, too - maybe it should have been part of the question (and thanks for the reply).

And thank you to LadyHeart (I think I find the general definition of "limits" becoming a bit blurry, too. Good advice. Thanks).

- Susan


Susan, Dominants do it,...."because we can!"



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:48:13 AM)

Thanks for clarifying your position, Popeye.[:D][:)]

I am not "downing" Dominants. I am asking if people tell their subs when they're going to push one of their "Limits" and-or if they "Just Do It" (and maybe under what circumstances).

I guess you just do it, eh? That's fine (if that's what you meant). It is just a question. I appreciate the reply.

- Susan



popeye1250 -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:52:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Thanks for clarifying your position, Popeye.[:D][:)]

I am not "downing" Dominants. I am asking if people tell their subs when  they're going to push one of their "Limits" and-or if they "Just Do It" (and maybe under what circumstances).

I guess you just do it, eh? That's fine. It is just a question. I appreciate the reply.

- Susan


If that's what you meant I just do it.
Hard to say "no" when you're gagged and tied down spread eagled, isn't it?
"What? You don't want me to use this Wartzburg wheel on you?"
"Awwwwwwww!"



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 12:55:58 AM)

Yowza! Okay, Popeye.[:D]

- Susan



ExSteelAgain -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 2:16:04 AM)

Taking any activity beyond what the submissive can usually tolerate. She will later find excitement in the fact she was taken beyond what she would usually be able to take. The simplest example is tying her up and whipping her harder than she can usually take. She would not ordinarily be able to tolerate the play, but she is pushed beyond her comfort zone and may desire such play again because of the out of her control aspect of the activity. 



HCWT1 -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 2:17:45 AM)

Limits are only the values of,what we percieve we are capable of achieving.If we don't push them how do we grow, (UM's push limits all the time)Adults in the vanilla world push llimits in sport,tec and relatoinships all the time,so whats so damn different about BDSM?.



SusanofO -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 2:53:23 AM)

ExSteel: Thanks for the very clear and explanatory reply.

HCWT1: I appreciate the reply, and I understand what you mean. In the BDSM world, I was referring to, perhaps, how to navigate a potential misunderstanding between two people that could possibly result in some fairly intense physical and-or emotional damage (if it isn't discussed between partners who, say, don't know eachother well) as well as possibly resulting in "growth". 

I realize the concept of "Pushing limits" can and does happen in the sports world, and in "Vanilla" relationships, even at some people's place of work, maybe too.  

I realize people "make it work for themsleves" in the BDSM world (all the time). And sometimes not. If there's a question about it - I wasn't particularly "whining" about a Dominant "pushing a submissive's limits" -  I do think it is a pretty broad topic area, that might lead to interesting discussion.

***The concept of "growth" resulting from "limits being pushed" is an interesting one, I think - it could probably be another topic thread there is so much to say about it.

-Who, for instance, decides what is considered "growth" for a submissive? Both partners, or just one?
-Does growth ever happen without "limits being pushed" or only when they are?
-How is it determined something is a "limit" in the first place? Etc.  

I think there are some "blurry" definitions out there re: "Pushing limits" (as LadyHeart mentioned) and I think it's up to two people to be clear with each other what the "terms" of their relationship re: "Pushing limits" are.

But I also very much want to know what others think.

- Susan



chathamvahere -> RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You? (8/3/2007 3:37:04 AM)

Of course limits can be both pushed and stretched, :) it defines your slave’s or subs abilities and his or her trust in you, a good Dom can always take him or her right to the breaking point each time, and generally farther then the slave or sub ever thought they could go. It separates a good session from a great session :)



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