Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (Full Version)

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iwillserveu -> Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/18/2004 2:12:56 PM)

This is apropos of nothing. I’ve read in the past several people claiming Dom males were like Chivalric knights.

Um, wrong! They were submissive males. (Guys, I’m starting a discussion, not a fight. OK? Replies with counter arguments are not flames, nor are replies poking holes in any argument. If anyone seriously has their identity invested in Arthurian Legend I would suggest a psychologist.[:)])

I know the reality was far different than the fantasy, but I am concerned with the fantasy. If you want to point out that knights rarely honored ladies and a big debate in the dark ages was how long the stick you beat your wife with may be, that is nice, but I don’t care. (BTW, the stick should be longer than your thumb according to the rule of thumb.[:)])

I can’t make that assertion without evidence. Let’s look at some big names. (for reference I use everything from Mallory, through bad movies, through The Once and Future King, through Monty Python.)

King Arthur: We’ll leave the whole Lady in the Lake bit aside for now. He was a cuckold. He knew Lancelot and Gwenivere “had a thing going on”. He jeopardized even Camelot for their happiness. A case can be made he was submitting to Lancelot not Gwenivere, but he is still submitting.

Lancelot: When he makes bad guys yield he sends them to camelot to beg forgiveness from Gwenivere, His Lady.

Tristham: Many of his adventures are to say Isolde from certain inconvenience. (Beheading is inconvenient, right?[:)])



perverseangelic -> RE: Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/18/2004 3:26:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
(BTW, the stick should be longer than your thumb according to the rule of thumb.[:)])



incedentally, it's not "the stick should be longer than your thumb" it's "the stick should be no -thicker- than your thumb."



Sinergy -> RE: Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/18/2004 10:53:18 PM)

Well, thank you for indicating I need therapy.

However, while I have read your negative deconstruction of the Arthurian legends of Celtic Britain, I have to respond that I dont see Lancelot or Arthur as submissive at all.

If they were submissive, they were submissive to an IDEAL in their minds which transcended their physical state.

I agree with that ideal, there are things in life which have more importance than my physical survival. Personally, I cannot imagine living with the idea that the most important thing in the universe is my own sense of self importance.

Sinergy



iwillserveu -> RE: Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/19/2004 6:08:37 AM)

Sinergy,

(Please remember this is polite but harsh. [Figure that one out Moderators![:D]])

I agree the ideal they are submitting to involves a LADY. Hello, who submits to a LADY. Any Doms care to tell me how often they submit to their subs?[:)]

(OK, Doms I'll give you Sir Gawain in some icarnations.[:)])



basiasubrosa -> RE: Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/24/2004 6:25:30 AM)

according to TH White, even Merlin the wizard was a sub [;)]

alas for poor sub ladies (like the thwarted Elaine?) o woe...



Sundew02 -> RE: Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/24/2004 10:12:08 AM)

Interesting thought process there iwillserve, but I think you have mixed a few apples in with your oranges. First, since we cannot view from first hand experience what occurred in medieval times, historians were human with the same tendancy to put their opinion into an event as the next person. And as the language of the time was not modern English, translation errors will abound. As might made right in that era, without some code of conduct for the males there would have been total chaos. As to who was submissive and who was dominant. All knights had to submit to the King, and their individual Lords. That did not make them submissives. We all must compromise and submit to remain employed. Now, after all that, laughing, my rebuttal. taken individually, the term Chivalric knight as a decription for a Dom, Chivalry- Qualities of honor, bravery, and gallantry towards women. Knight- a noble defender, or champion. It might be a medieval term, but it does have modern usage. Like most words that now have a slightly different meaning than their original it is still applicable. I have known many Doms that I would say have the qualities extoled by the definition, but they do not come riding in on a horse in full armour. Way past my 2 cents worth, but then I never said I was a quiet flower. More like my name, which by the way, is a deadly plant that entices the unsuspecting into its trap. I am not a plant, but the ideal is appropriate, as a decription of ME, the Dominant. Take care, be safe, Tess



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/24/2004 11:18:48 AM)

Hey iwill,

I think you are confusing doing something nice (or noble or gallant or heroic) for a lady with submission. Gwenivere didn't walk up to Lancelot and say "Lance, be a good subbie and fetch me a string of knights to beg my forgiveness." What happened was that Lancelot saw this fine queen and decided he would do a bit of preening in front of her...by defeting a group of knights and sending them back to show his prowress. And we all know that Doms never preen in front of subs and show off their skills...don't we? *smile*

When I am with a slave, I feel a sense of pride of ownership that compells much of my actions. I hold doors, I protect, I provide, I make sure she is safe. I do this because she is mine, not because I am submitting to her. Were she to demand any of these actions, she would find herself quite dumped. But when I take possession, they are part of the package.

What you are suggesting sounds a lot like the "Don't Dom me!!!" idea. Simply politeness isn't submission. Proving your worth as a man, a Master, or a knight isn't submission. It is the game that humans (and almost all male/female) species play. It is an evolutionary adaptation that leads to a stronger species.

The actions of a male sub submitting by opening a door might be the very same action as a male dom opening the door for his slave, but the intent and meaning behind it is very different. If you can't see how, then you are missing much of the complexity of the human mind.

Yours,
Taggard



sarbonn -> RE: Chivarly? Dom males or sub males? (6/25/2004 11:12:06 AM)

I've always considered the type of slavery/submission I have lived to be chivalrous in nature. I don't deny that a dom can be chivalrous, but I just know that it is practically the core of my being.

This is what has actually gotten me in trouble over the years when I've not been in a relationship because I am chivalrous towards all women (all men, for that matter, as chivalry is a mindset, not a sexual response system). This often means that I am taking on more work than I should, and that I am constantly looking for ways to enhance the happiness of women around me (unless they have shown a dislike for such attention or prove themselves to be unworthy of chivalrous attention).

Anyway, just a thought from someone who takes it quite seriously. I hear a lot of people talking about chivalry as their "thing" but they really don't mean it. They want to be seen as chivalrous without actually going through the work and sacrifices inherent in such dispositions.



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