RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Full Version)

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Dominatist -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/11/2007 9:08:08 AM)
deleted

NorthernGent -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/11/2007 12:41:53 PM)
I'll concede that numerous death camps is a step further. Whether or not the Nazis were attempting to annihilate the Jews is open for debate, and indeed still is being debated. I doubt they themselves knew as they were clueless and just stumbled along in the dark pretty much making it up as they went along. My point is/was, though, not centred around American attrocities in Iraqi camps. I'm talking about the principle that underpins this invasion: the Americans know better, so they'll force the Iraqis to be "free"....ok many Iraqis will die, but they'll thank the Americans for it later. In my book, it's complete bollocks, and I'll tip my hat to those putting pressure on their government to stop this, but for those who aren't: this "remember the dead" is hollow.

DesertRat -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/11/2007 3:26:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Level Do those that remember the dead of Pearl Harbor, not also feel empathy for the civilians of Japan? My sentiments exactly. Thank you, Level. Sinergy I agree. Further, I think such sentiments are in tune with the very simple intent of the OP when starting this thread. The "fuck 'em" responses are inappropriate and rude. Kinda like someone crashing a funeral. They're interesting, however, as they reveal something about the posters. Still, I wish they weren't here. It's pretty disappointing. Bob

Rumtiger -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/12/2007 8:01:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertRat quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Level Do those that remember the dead of Pearl Harbor, not also feel empathy for the civilians of Japan? My sentiments exactly. Thank you, Level. Sinergy I agree. Further, I think such sentiments are in tune with the very simple intent of the OP when starting this thread. The "fuck 'em" responses are inappropriate and rude. Kinda like someone crashing a funeral. They're interesting, however, as they reveal something about the posters. Still, I wish they weren't here. It's pretty disappointing. Bob Theres was only one fuck em response and it was from me, you want me then go directly for me. When the Japanese start teaching the real history to thier own people anywhere near the same scale as we have with our own history, rather than trying to victimize themselves throughout the entire conflict, then they will be deserving of my empathy. Until then, my opinon and my ideals remain steadfast.

ManInTheBox -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/12/2007 8:27:37 PM)
The only reason we really dropped it was to stop Russia from coming in to fight because we didn't wanna haveta share any more land with them. We knew the Cold War was coming and the destruction the A bombs would cause. Not that I'm against us dropping it, it benefitted us strategically and did prevent Russia from getting more powerful

MrRodgers -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/13/2007 4:06:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zanarkand quote: ORIGINAL: EvilCrimeLord I think a demonstration to the Japanese of the nuclear testing could have ended the war without such loss of life but for some strange reason this was never considered. It wasnt considered because we only had two bombs. The president could not risk wasting a bomb on a demonstration. He knew he had to break the spirit of the Emperor. And that meant dropping them on cities. We told the Japanese about the bomb...they didn't believe us. We offered a demonstration on a Pacific island...they said no. We emphasized its destructive power...they didn't believe us. So... We DEMONSTRATED it for them on Hiroshima...THEY STILL DIDN'T SURRENDER. I ask...just what the hell were we supposed to do then ? Well...DEMONSTRATE it again...that's what...and that one worked. There were many Japanese military officers who still...after two bombs did not want to surrender and some even committed suicide rather than do so. Imperial Japan and ALL of the Japanese people, under the emporer by the 1930's...WERE INSANE. They even told the Germans...'we'll give you the privelage of being last' they were so smug and confident in overall victory.

meatcleaver -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 2:07:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Zanarkand quote: ORIGINAL: EvilCrimeLord I think a demonstration to the Japanese of the nuclear testing could have ended the war without such loss of life but for some strange reason this was never considered. It wasnt considered because we only had two bombs. The president could not risk wasting a bomb on a demonstration. He knew he had to break the spirit of the Emperor. And that meant dropping them on cities. We told the Japanese about the bomb...they didn't believe us. We offered a demonstration on a Pacific island...they said no. We emphasized its destructive power...they didn't believe us. So... We DEMONSTRATED it for them on Hiroshima...THEY STILL DIDN'T SURRENDER. I ask...just what the hell were we supposed to do then ? Well...DEMONSTRATE it again...that's what...and that one worked. There were many Japanese military officers who still...after two bombs did not want to surrender and some even committed suicide rather than do so. Imperial Japan and ALL of the Japanese people, under the emporer by the 1930's...WERE INSANE. They even told the Germans...'we'll give you the privelage of being last' they were so smug and confident in overall victory. Japan was suing for peace before Hiroshima. Their only condition was to keep their emperor. The US rejected that condition but let them keep their emperor anyway. You are just rationalizing a war crime in the way leading NAZIs rationalize the holocaust.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 8:29:21 AM)
The fucking jews didn't attack Germany, the fucking jews hadn't raped entire cities and nations. The fucking Japanese got what they deserved, you start wars of aggression, bad shit happens. At least the Germans realized what they did was evil, the Japanese still act like WWII happened TO them!

meatcleaver -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 8:31:34 AM)
Deleted because some things are better said after a little thought.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 8:33:40 AM)
NorthernRacist, quote: Whether or not the Nazis were attempting to annihilate the Jews is open for debate, and indeed still is being debated. Only by small minded pencil dicked fuckwads who's family trees don't have many branches. Let's not forget, creationism is still "debated" as is the "fact" that the earth is only 5,000 years old. There are fucking morons willing to believe all sorts of really really stupid fucking crap. Seems you are eager to join that list of backward fucks.

Enlightenment -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 8:42:35 AM)
this thread would die pretty quickly if people had to cite the sources where they're getting their facts from

Alumbrado -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 9:14:01 AM)
quote: When the Japanese start teaching the real history to thier own people anywhere near the same scale as we have with our own history, rather than trying to victimize themselves throughout the entire conflict, then they will be deserving of my empathy. Was it those responsible for keeping the Japanese people in the dark who died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 9:18:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: When the Japanese start teaching the real history to thier own people anywhere near the same scale as we have with our own history, rather than trying to victimize themselves throughout the entire conflict, then they will be deserving of my empathy. Was it those responsible for keeping the Japanese people in the dark who died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It is not up to us to determind what is right and wrong with another countries triditions and cultures.. Their Society rocks sugest we leave it alone

Alumbrado -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 9:20:33 AM)
Every country has the same 'traditions and culture' of corrupt leaders making venal decisions that cause problems for those outside the policy making ranks.

NorthernGent -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 11:19:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael NorthernRacist, quote: Whether or not the Nazis were attempting to annihilate the Jews is open for debate, and indeed still is being debated. Only by small minded pencil dicked fuckwads who's family trees don't have many branches. Let's not forget, creationism is still "debated" as is the "fact" that the earth is only 5,000 years old. There are fucking morons willing to believe all sorts of really really stupid fucking crap. Seems you are eager to join that list of backward fucks. I'll educate you. The number of Jews slaughtered by the Nazis was anywhere between 2 and 5 million. Census records suggest closer to 2 million: probably around 2.7 million. Not that the numbers should warrant a great deal of argument: slaughter is slaughter, genocide is genocide. Whether or not the Nazis were actually trying to wipe all of the Jews off the planet is being debated within serious universities by serious historians; based on your post (and others from you), your education seems limited, so you wouldn't know this. The "Final Solution" document of 1942 is inconclusive and open to interpretation. Was it the final solution as in "kill them all", or was it the final solution in terms of "subjugation"? Many leading Nazis weren't even aware of the existence of this document, and it is questionable whether or not the top man sanctioned the document. There are many unanswered questions, and new documents have come to light. Now, I'd say there's plenty of material for you to read, assuming this particular topic is of interest to you; by all means have a read, but, really, do yourself a favour and re-read your post: you're making yourself look foolish. Edited to add: popular history is popular for a reason.

caitlyn -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 12:01:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Japan was suing for peace before Hiroshima. Their only condition was to keep their emperor. The US rejected that condition but let them keep their emperor anyway. This is probably flatly untrue, although I'm sure you can find dozens of websites to support this claim. Most valid historians without an axe to grind, would emphasis that Japan wanted four things: To keep their Emperor, Amnesty for all the key players in the conflict, A very limited American occupation, No limits on naval strength after the war. Unconditional surrender was the phrase of the day. That just is, what it is. You might not agree with that as a stance, but cannot discount it. There was no trust in place ... it was a World War. That said, dropping the bomb was not our finest hour. I believe we did it as a domenstration to the Soviets ... sending the only kind of message that a man like Stalin could understand. I have to agree that in the end, it probably did save lives. It's pretty clear that Japan was going to play this out to the bitter end. Attempting to deny them resources, would have meant food, and it's my belief that the Japanese government was more than prepared to watch as millions starved to death. the population was fed constant nonsense about the brutal occupation of the enemy. This sort of nonsense was done by all the players in this conflict. In closing, I find it highly problematic that people would somehow look down on those in this thread, that are only discussing historical events. This "reveal something about the poster" nonsense, is just that in my view. Most were not even born at the time, and even if they were, were not in a postion to make greater-scale political and military decisions. This discussion says nothing about anyone, other than they are willing and able to discuss a historical event. It is possible to have empathy, while still discussing historical reality. Those that differ with that, might want to look within.

DesertRat -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 4:22:58 PM)
Okay, caitlyn, I looked within. It's the lack of empathy, the coldness, that disturbs me. And, yeah, it does say something about the posters. Mixed in with the rational discussion of the facts and significance of the events are expressions of jingoism. Read the entire thread, including the OPs request to keep it simple and compassionate. Bob

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 4:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael NorthernRacist, quote: Whether or not the Nazis were attempting to annihilate the Jews is open for debate, and indeed still is being debated. Only by small minded pencil dicked fuckwads who's family trees don't have many branches. Let's not forget, creationism is still "debated" as is the "fact" that the earth is only 5,000 years old. There are fucking morons willing to believe all sorts of really really stupid fucking crap. Seems you are eager to join that list of backward fucks. I'll educate you. The number of Jews slaughtered by the Nazis was anywhere between 2 and 5 million. Census records suggest closer to 2 million: probably around 2.7 million. Not that the numbers should warrant a great deal of argument: slaughter is slaughter, genocide is genocide. Whether or not the Nazis were actually trying to wipe all of the Jews off the planet is being debated within serious universities by serious historians; based on your post (and others from you), your education seems limited, so you wouldn't know this. The "Final Solution" document of 1942 is inconclusive and open to interpretation. Was it the final solution as in "kill them all", or was it the final solution in terms of "subjugation"? Many leading Nazis weren't even aware of the existence of this document, and it is questionable whether or not the top man sanctioned the document. There are many unanswered questions, and new documents have come to light. Now, I'd say there's plenty of material for you to read, assuming this particular topic is of interest to you; by all means have a read, but, really, do yourself a favour and re-read your post: you're making yourself look foolish. Edited to add: popular history is popular for a reason. Yep NG i totally agree some people no matter how black n white it is just do not get it i think we need the acme anvil right about now

SimplyMichael -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 4:49:17 PM)
Latex, are you one of the fucking dipshits that believe the holocaust is a myth?

Firebirdseeking -> RE: Remembrance: Hiroshima and Nagasaki (8/14/2007 6:12:34 PM)
Have you ever heard of anti-Semitism? if not, look it up or go to Wikipedia if you can spell it. You have some fucking nerve saying that the annhiliation of the Jews is open for debate. Spend some bucks and go visit Dacau or Aushwitz and maybe the smell there will change your small mind. Firebirdseeking (Jewish, for the record).

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