Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Carpal tunnel


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Health and Safety >> Carpal tunnel Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Carpal tunnel - 8/13/2007 1:43:54 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I think I have discovered something. Remember regular people discover things too (as if I am regular LOL).

As a semi computer geek spending time using a keyuboard and mouse, there have been developing intemittent shooting pains in my wrists. I have been told by people who had the operation for this condition NOT TO DO IT. Well you'll get no argument from me.

A few days ago I had such a shooting pain in my left wrist, as I was exerting considerable force turning a screwdriver. I quickly dismiss pain, but it occurred to me at the time that I have not been experiencing this symptom for quite some time, about the same amount of time as I have owned this piano.

No, I am not hijacking myself, I have a theory. This piano, though electronic, has the weighted keys. It really feels like a real piano, you have to HIT the keys. My wrists used to be very strong, in fact I used to be quite strong overall, but I stopped working out for the last few years, but that is neither here nor there. Many many people suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome and there is mounting evidence that alot of computer use might cause or aggravate the condition.

Now let's examine some facts. I suspect that some people have gotten this condition using an electric typewriter as well, and I have a theory. I will support this with plain facts.

When you use a PC keyboard or mouse, your muscles are generally holding your hand up, hovering over these devices. When you type or click, you are not doing much more than simply letting the weight fall on the button or key. Most modern electric pianos have weak springs as well.

So you are almost always pulling up. In the old days of mechanical typewriters you had to use force to type, on real pianos you had to use force, DOWNWARD force to operate the device.

Imagine holding your arm straight out for long periods of time, doing it every day for years, I think with the relative health of people today, this would cause shoulder problems. I think this is a similar situation.

Before the piano, I sometimes experienced pain simply driving, and yes the car has power steering. I would have to "crack" my wrists from time to time, but no more. I mean that one little shooting pain last week reminded me.

My wrist problems have abated quite a bit after buying that piano. I can't discount other factors though, like the fact that I have given up coffee. But I gave up sugar and most carbs years ago, yet I had this condition.

I really believe if people were nourished properly CTS would not exist, but that doesn't mean we don't have a possible treatment. Should CTS sufferers be beating their hands on a table somewhere ? I think it is possibly true.

I have other theories as well. That mineral deficiencies cause alot of the ailments we suffer. Everybody talks about blood pressure management for example. But what about warriors of old, fighting with swords and shields. What do you suppose their blood pressure went up to, or the case of those extreme fighters, or athletes ? People have problems with blood pressure because their system cannot handle the pressure, but I think it should.

So my premise is that if nourished properly, you should be able to hold your hands up from a desk with no ill effects, but it is not so because, in general, we are sick.

But that doesn't negate the facts. If you have CTS, perhaps you need to balance out this activity with using some real DOWNWARD force, such as using an old manual typewriter, or a real piano (or one with weighted keys).

Just a thought, based on my own observations. Any opinions on this ?

T
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/13/2007 2:24:08 PM   
Phin


Posts: 1802
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		I will not speak on the downward force actually helping, because I dont know.

As for the surgery? if you need it, get it. My mother and a guitarist friend has had Carpal Tunnel. Both have had the surgery and both are satified with the results. My father had Torsal Tunnel witch is the equivilant to Carpal in the feet, and is satified with the surgery for that too. If he had not done the surgery, he would have had to quit his job almost 10 years ago.

_____________________________

"Isn't wonderful when our bruises show what we hide in the back of our heads?"Fayetteville band, Nephilym

"He is my angel, my devil, my naughty boy, but above anything else my Master"My girl sin

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/13/2007 2:44:57 PM   
Dom87110


Posts: 102
Joined: 8/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
If you have CTS, perhaps you need to balance out this activity with using some real DOWNWARD force.


Intriguing notion! Even though I spend almost 10 hours on the computer at work every day, I still do not see any symptoms of CTS.

Could it be that I have benefited from years of regular, repeat, high-frequency application of real downward force on my genitalia that has saved me from this gruesome ailment?

Just joshing you - but I could not resist! 

Gus

_____________________________

Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

Oscar Wilde


That's not what I meant by "where the sun don't shine". But it looks good there, too.

Me

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/13/2007 4:40:22 PM   
Vampyrefledgling


Posts: 91
Joined: 7/10/2007
Status: offline 		There are ergonomically designed keyboards which help negate the effects of CTS (don't you love how there are acronyms for everything). I won't pretend to know enough about it to comment on your theory one way or the other. All I will say is that the mind is a powerful thing and if your theory helps you feel better, then with that! I firmly believe that the human brain has healing capacities, you've heard the phrase mind over matter, no?  If you don't want the surgery, don't get it. I haven't read any articles about someone dying from CTS (although I suppose anything is possible). If you feel strongly that you'd rather go a more homeopathic route, than do so. There are many who would cheer you on.

~Fledgling

(in reply to Dom87110)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/13/2007 8:18:44 PM   
temptressofsouls


Posts: 208
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Toledo, OH
Status: offline 		I would say the downward force theory is bunk-I got carpal tunnel from playing percussion, and you dont usually hit UP, you hit down-its any sort of repeated motion thats going to to do it, and different types of repeated movement will do it-say you play percussion, are on the computer a lot, and knit-all three will add to your discomfort.

I got denied the surgery as i was 16 at the time and they said I was too young, but I have braces that hold heat that i wear when im in pain, or sometimes routinely at night-these are prescription, not ace bandages, and they help a lot. Other then that, I get regular massages and try to stay away from repetitive motion as best I can

(in reply to Vampyrefledgling)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/14/2007 12:09:55 AM   
OneEvilBastard


Posts: 15
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		The carpal tunnel is a pretty tiny gap in your wrist that the tendons and nerves to most (if I recall correctly, certain tendons run outside of it and it varies per person) of your fingers.

Carpal tunnel syndrome is caused by an inflamation of the carpal tunnel. Think of ropes being dragged forward and backwards through a smallish hole: as soon as there's any kind of an angle, they'll rub against the edges. A little of this is well within what your body can handle. An extreme amount, all day, every day, will cause it to get inflamed. Once it's inflamed, even a small amount is all that's necessary to keep it inflamed.

Various medical interventions exist to relieve it. As it's basically an inflamation, anti inflamatories (from ibuprofen to NSAIDs) can help a little but they just mask the symptoms. If you keep doing what you were doing to cause it, they'll just buy you a little temporary relief. The more drastic option is to cut the tendon that's rubbing. The pain goes away but at the cost of permanently limiting movement to your hand.

The interesting thing to note is that, for most of the people who won the early large lawsuits over data entry and then really did stop using computers, the issue went away within a couple of years. It isn't permanent - it's just that most people won't stop doing what inflames it so they're convinced it is - and thus surgery that permanently limits mobility in your hands is kind of a foolish idea.

Ergonomic keyboards, etc. help to a degree. The problem with most of them is that once you have bad posture habits, you're unlikely to really cure them, no matter what the keyboard's doing.

As the bluntest demonstration... Hang your arms by your side. Now raise your forearms at the elbow. Notice how your palms are vertical, thumbs up? ANY deviation from that position has the potential to cause issues. Now think about how you use a keyboard. First, rotate your palms so they're flat (or even the 30 degrees of an "ergonomic" keyboard) - "pronation" is the first aspect that ruins your wrists.  Now move them inward, together, and twist them back so your fingers are pointing away from you again - that's "deviation". Finally raise your fingers as if you were resting the base of your palms - that's "extension". Any one of those three have the potential to cause issues. Combine two or three of them - and most people do all three - and you're screwed if you do it all day, every day.

An ergonomic keyboard generally lessens "deviation" and "pronation" a little. Most people freak out if a keyboard is tilted down *away* from them and put the legs up on the far side, making "extension" even worse. Even if you do use the keyboard as intended (and most of us still do bad things like resting our palms), they only reduce the degree of pronation, deviation and extension - they don't negate it entirely.

About the one exception is the SafeType keyboard. I actually met the owner of the company when reviewing ergonomic devices for a science journal. I have one and it does make a difference - but it costs $300 (more than most people are willing to pay), doesn't address mouse issues, and puts the cursor keys in the wrong place for people who rely on them (coders, etc.) It also forces you to completely rethink how you type - which most people hate at first but is actually very easy to do.

None of the keyboard stuff matters if you sit with your hand on a mouse all day. There are some truly ergonomic mice that you rest your hand in vertically. The problems with them though is that they're cumbersome to use, much less accurate, and very easy to misuse - gripping them wrongly and repeating the same problems.

In your case, you talked about piano playing as something that helped. This makes a lot of sense. Piano playing teaches you to keep your palms raised (or does if you're well taught). If you carried that over, you were at least cutting down the "extension" component of carpal tunnel synrome.

You also talked about diet. Diet can help with getting your body to recover from insults faster and thus may help with the inflamatory part. It may even cut down on any fat pushing on the area, contracting it even more (though you'll notice no one can actually store fat on their wrists). Either way, these are more about relieving the symptoms, not the cause.

So: There are a bunch of medical procedures - but they either simply mask symptoms or permanently maim you. There are a bunch of allegedly ergonomic solutions that only improve a few areas and only part of the way. There are a few ergonomic solutions that actually do fix the issue - but they are expensive, cumbersome and prone to being misused. There is a healthier lifestyle - never a bad thing but unlikely to make a dramatic difference. And then there's the answer no one likes: either stop doing what hurts you or learn to modify it so it doesn't. This is the only real cure that won't screw you for life - but it's a hell of a lot of work, gets annoying fast and is easy to slip out of. If piano playing works as an easy way to get in to those habits, lucky you.

(in reply to temptressofsouls)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/14/2007 1:56:50 PM   
Vampyrefledgling


Posts: 91
Joined: 7/10/2007
Status: offline 		What about something like acupuncture to help relieve pain? I tried it for migraine pain, granted it didn't work for me, but others swear by it. What works for one person doesn't always work for another, I have an open mind. When it comes to pain, I'm willing to try pretty much anything! I don't have carpal tunnel, but for those who do, might acupuncture offer some relief?

~Fledgling

(in reply to OneEvilBastard)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/14/2007 2:01:39 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		It might, but you might have better luck with shiatsu, since that will actully be manipulating the trigger points, and exercise to increase flexibility, as well as rest, and adjusting whatever is causing the problem

(in reply to Vampyrefledgling)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/14/2007 4:57:55 PM   
KMsAngel


Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		had the problem. took vit b6 for 18 months before i could get the surgery. surgery hasn't limited my use, range of motion, etc. keyboard was my downfall. also, diabetes can aggravate CTS, so get your blood checked as a precaution

_____________________________

20 fluffy points!

flightless cherub


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/14/2007 5:22:13 PM   
DommeChains


Posts: 415
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		Another cause of wrist pain can be an undiagnosed thyroid problem.  I have taken several patients through the years to the neuro for an evaluation of recurrent upper extremity pain or wrist pain and every one of those neurologists tested thyroid functions before prescribing any medications or therapies.  I asked what the relationship was between an underactive thyroid and wrist pain and none of them had an answer other than that there is a clinical significant percentage of sufferers with both conditions.  Just another possible avenue to explore.

Also, on occasion the pain, numbness, tingling etc. felt in the wrist can have its origins in the cervical area if there is any type of nerve compression in that part of the spine.  Pain does not always manifest at the site of the malfunction.  That is why a thorough examination by a doctor is a good idea in my opinion.

(in reply to KMsAngel)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/14/2007 5:38:54 PM   
Durus


Posts: 184
Joined: 7/9/2007
Status: offline 		There is a great little product called a dyna-flex ball that has helped with my cts.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/14/2007 7:02:54 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting responses.

Trying to keep it chronological.

Phin;

Others have different judgment than me. I do not go in unless I have less than a 50/50 chance of surviving. That is not true of everyone. Also surely there are some for whom there is no other option than surgery, which has no doubt been improved over the years.

Dom8...;

As far as the downward force on the genitals, I think that makes you go deaf instead of blind. Huh ? What was that ?

Fledge..;

I would surely go homeopathic or nutrition/therapy based cures. There is a possibility that all I had was like a precursor, as my joints are fairly healthy.

tempt...;

As for playing percussion, I can see how that contradicts the theory. But then there are valid points for as well as against any given theory. The only way to debunk your debunktion boils down to the difference of the dynamic of the motion. When you use a drumstick it is pretty much a hammer, and indeed you do have to hold it up between strokes, in fact at times you need to pull up quite quickly. Mass plus motion, changing motion adds up to more mass effectively. With a piano all you lift are your fingers, and I admit sometimes that has to happen quickly. So I see evidence on either side. There is another factor, statically, how many percussion instrument players get CTS, as compared to computer geeks or workers, etc.

OneEvil;

There are alot of reasons for pain. Whenever a nerve works itself into trouble, the pain can be severe. I know someone who had to have back surgery, simply to move some nerves back into position, but what failure allowed them to move into the wrong position in the first place ? About the position of the hands as opposed to what could be termed a resting position, I don't think it should be an issue. Somehow the construction of the person's body in inadequate. The reason ? As usual I would say probably malnutrition, but I realize there are other factors. But for people who are susceptable to the syndrome, perhaps they need a keyboard that folds in half with the keys outwards, which sits in their lap, something like that.

Fledge...;

I don't believe accupncture really relieves inflammation all that well, it seems to be a neural thing. I could be wrong, if it is pain that causes the inflammation, acupuncture could be beneficial.

Alum...;

Isn't the shiatsu a form of mechanical massager ? Or is that product name "borrowed" from something else ?

KMs...;

Interesting point about other conditions aggravating it, but of course there is the possibility that the same root cause could be causing the CTS as well as the other condition. What makes it more interesting is my Mother's cure for CTS, a quadruple bypass. She told me that the only thing she can figure is that it was poor circulation or blood oxygenantion or something. And she had it pretty bad, she had a brace, but it was OTC. She doesn't use it at all anymore.

Domme...;

I hear you about the pain not always being at the site of the problem. When it comes to nerves almost anything is possible. I will offer this supporting evidence, but I have no site to cite, this is a friend of mine. He's a regular guy now, but about 25-30 years ago he aquired some lead in his body, in the form of bullets. Multiple gunshot wounds. A nerve got damaged or something and his one arm was always burning and reddened. Drugs didn't work. I mean they had him on some really strong shit too, morpine etc., nothing worked. What did finally work was a procedure known as a sympathectomy. This is the selective severing of nerves. His movement was limited for a time, but his body seems to have worked around it somehow. His arm is still a bit gimpy, and does not tan in the sun (that was a surprise to me, but it is true). He has regained most of the use of his arm and is able to work, and does.

Durus;

The crux of the matter, at least to me would be if that is an analgesic or an anti-infammatory. I believe that painkillers are to be a last resort. I believe that in the normal course of healing, the pain is what tells the brain to allocate more resources to the afflicted area. Of course there are exceptions, as mentioned earlier in the case of nerve damage, or trauma.

Be back when I can, my PC is down. I get closer to loading Linux every day. I got about four versions of it.

T

(in reply to Durus)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/15/2007 6:43:31 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

Isn't the shiatsu a form of mechanical massager ? Or is that product name "borrowed" from something else ?



Correct about the name being borrowed.  Therpeutic Shiatsu is a massage system that uses the same references as acupuncture, but replaces needles with deep fingertip pressure. Whether one buys into energy theories or not, the hard pressing does release some trigger points as well.

And I heartily second the mention of the dyna-flex ball, I'm sorry I didn't bring it up... It is not a grip trainer, it was developed for tennis elbow, IIRC, and works very well to strengthen and loosen wrist and hands as well as forearm.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/15/2007 9:38:19 AM   
fungasm


Posts: 321
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline 		OneEvilBastard- A Brilliant Reply!  That is one of the most complete overviews of the topic I have seen.

Bravo!

Alison

_____________________________

"Science is a lot like sex. Sometimes something useful comes of it, but that's not the reason we're doing it." (Richard Feynman)

Blog: http://antidomme.sensualwriter.com

(in reply to OneEvilBastard)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/15/2007 10:49:04 AM   
temptressofsouls


Posts: 208
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Toledo, OH
Status: offline 		*nods* After I had typed it out, I realized you do indeed have to pull up, but I had been running on 3  hours of sleep for a few hours over 24...Lack of sleep impairs judgement,right? *winks*

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/15/2007 2:57:29 PM   
Vampyrefledgling


Posts: 91
Joined: 7/10/2007
Status: offline 		The thing with acupuncture is it somehow triggers the body to release tension in the muscles which could release pressure put on the nerves, causing pain. I'm not saying for sure that it would work, I'm just wondering whether it would, coupled with physical therapy perhaps to rebuild strength. When you're dealing with the Nervous System, things are tricky. Acupuncture can work in all the areas simultaneously, cervical spine, hands, wrists, etc, effectively releasing all that pain at once into the...into the...universe, I guess? *laugh* Okay, so I'm being a little dramatic, I was just wondering whether or not it would work. I know acupuncture works for some people with migraines (it didn't work for me, but it does for others).

It was just a thought...

~Fledgling

(in reply to temptressofsouls)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Carpal tunnel - 8/15/2007 3:10:17 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Best current guess that I'm aware of, is that acupuncture works in a limited fashion for pain relief through possibly stimulating changes in microvoltage dc current in the fascia, and maybe some endorphin release..placebo effect shouldn't be discounted entirely either.

Anecdotally, the success of acupuncture as a long tem 'cure' for CTS is iffy, perhaps due to the recipients not fixing the underlying factors as outlined above.

Again, if you have access to someone doing acupuncture, there should be shiatsu availabe, which will work those trigger points pretty directly.

(in reply to Vampyrefledgling)
Profile   Post #: 17
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Health and Safety >> Carpal tunnel Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078