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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/5/2005 3:17:13 PM   
MaitresseEden


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Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
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quote:

homosexuality or simply closeted. "You're either gay, straight or lying," as some gay men have put it.

In the new study, a team of psychologists directly measured genital arousal patterns in response to images of men and women. The psychologists found that men who identified themselves as bisexual were in fact exclusively aroused by either one sex or the other, usually by other men.

The study is the largest of several small reports suggesti


ok.. As psychological researcher myself, I went to the article in question and already see major problems with it's methodology. The sample was extremely small.. (101) and all were recruited from within the Gay Reading Material Area . The subjects were shown print media of naked males and woman, and the recruitment for subjects was in a magazine geared toward printed nudity of males. Unfortunately bias exists in all areas. and the fact that the researcher claims this is the "largest" study" done.. is also false, there are numerous others that have been done. The key to understanding research in a healthy way is to always ask yourself the following questions:

1. How large was the sample and was it a cross sectional sample? In this case that would be need to be at least 1000 plus subjects sample of people worldwide, and not just gay men in one town.
2. Does the sample include people of all genders. ( males, females, transgendered, and intersexed).
3. What is the goal of the research, and is the method for testing support the hypothesis. In this case they equate sexual arousal in the form of erectness with sexual preference, based solely on graphic images, if they blindfolded the subjects and had them feel a naked man and a naked woman would the responses have been the same?
4. Who is funding this research? (MAJOR big question to always ask)..
5. Who benefits from the findings?

Lastly, it is interesting to note that this study was done by :Northwestern University and the Center for Addiction and Mental Health , an organization geared toward addiction and mental health is more likely to have preconcieved notions about sexuality. Another interesting point is that the original article inthe Times Neglects to name the authors and title of the subject.. he simply says.. some people have seen it and some people say this about it.. What Agenda does the Times have with printing this article..

Ms. Eden



























4

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/5/2005 8:31:34 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
It would also be ridiculous to discount evidence from a clinical study because it doesn't match expectations or is upsetting.


The clinical study was not what was upsetting. The biased tone of the beginning of the article posted is. Though read in its entirety it is less slanted then one would first surmise upon reading your posting.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I found this fascinating, but I would really like to see if there are similar findings for women.



From the article:

"About 1.5 percent of American women identify themselves bisexual. And bisexuality appears easier to demonstrate in the female sex. A study published last November by the same team of Canadian and American researchers, for example, found that most women who said they were bisexual showed arousal to men and to women."

"Although only a small number of women identify themselves as bisexual, Dr. Bailey said, bisexual arousal may for them in fact be the norm."

Listed below are some other direct quotes from the article.


"Bisexual desires are sometimes transient and they are still poorly understood. Men and women also appear to differ in the frequency of bisexual attractions. "The last thing you want," said Dr. Randall Sell, an assistant professor of clinical socio-medical sciencThe entire article did mention the findings for women as I posted below.
es at Columbia University, "is for some therapists to see this study and start telling bisexual people that they're wrong, that they're really on their way to homosexuality."

"He added, "We don't know nearly enough about sexual orientation and identity" to jump to these conclusions."

or this


"There's a whole lot of movement and flexibility," Dr. Diamond added. "The fact is, we have very little research in this area, and a lot to learn."

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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/6/2005 4:41:24 AM   
pleasureforHim


Posts: 171
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline 		[[color=#FF33FFfont="Verdana"]This sheltered woman needs help understanding the sexuality of BDSM people.

This thread actually made my brain hurt. Before i found BDSM, i knew about straight, gay and lesbian orientations..and real people who lived them.

Now, as i read this posts here, i am hearing about:

bisexual women who prefer men (at least that's how it sounded)

bisexual women who prefer women (same caveat for all these catagories)

het flexible (which i did not understand)

bi curious (how long can one remain curious before one is moved to the "bisexual" catagories?)

Ftm Transsexuals (sorry; do not understand what a trasnsexual is; much less a "Ftm" one; why is this different than cross-dressing?)

Please, please do not be offended -- but it appears people change their sexual orientations in their 30's and possiblly later. Apart from gay and lesbian people who have been closted, i was taught sexuality was a part of the personality formed as the teenager becomes a young adult..and certainly by age 25, unless some pathology was at work. i have trouble understanding why this developmental dynamic does not hold true for BDSM people.

i can follow Lady Angelika's posts on the subject; how interaction with other people impacted her. It did not change who she was sexually, but it changed how she interacted with others. i think if we are honest, we are all different in our interactions because of our histories.

What confuses me is the apparent fluidity of some people between the different "sexual orientations". Sometimes i think people refer to themselves as bisexual in part to avoid be labeled or expected to conform. That's terrific..as long as the sexual gratification and relationship building also occurs.

This is not a chew toy post..i really am finally asking questions i have had since i arrived on CM. i hope someone as thoughtful and bright as Lady Angelika responds. Once again..do not see any hositily in this post..it just is not there.

pleasureforHim


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< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/6/2005 4:21:24 PM >

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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/6/2005 5:07:49 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim
This sheltered woman needs help understanding the sexuality of BDSM people.

Alright, I’m willing to help you out here, but first things first. This is not the sexuality of the BDSM people. All that I will discuss in this post applies to society at large, whether they practice elements of BDSM or not.

If we were to discuss the sexuality of people that incorporate BDSM in their lives, we would be talking about power/authority dynamics, not gender/sexual orientation. That said, there is much gender/sexual orientation diversity within BDSM.

quote:

This thread actually made my brain hurt. Before i found BDSM, i knew about straight, gay and lesbian orientations..and real people who lived them.

All this exists in and out of BDSM type relationships. This exists in the vanilla world.

quote:

Now, as i read this posts here, i am hearing about:

bisexual women who prefer men (at least that's how it sounded)

bisexual women who prefer women (same caveat for all these catagories)

het flexible (which i did not understand)

bi curious (how long can one remain curious before one is moved to the "bisexual" catagories?)

Ftm Transsexuals (sorry; do not understand what a trasnsexual is; much less a "Ftm" one; why is this different than cross-dressing?)


Bisexual is bisexual. Some like women a little more, some like men a little more, some are 50/50, it’s all a question of personal taste/choice.
I think that EmeraldSlave2 gave an excellent distinction between het flexible and bicurious.
As for Transexuality, well that is a topic all on its own. I’m not the expert on transexuality though I do know a bit about it. Some experts will say that transexuality is one of the manifestations of transgender. CalliopePurple started an excellent thread on gender. There are more then likely a few collarme experts on transgender and transsexual issues. I’m sure they will speak up. Oh and Ftm means Female to Male and Mtf means Male to Female.

quote:

Please, please do not be offended -- but it appears people change their sexual orientations in their 30's and possiblly later. Apart from gay and lesbian people who have been closted, i was taught sexuality was a part of the personality formed as the teenager becomes a young adult..and certainly by age 25, unless some pathology was at work. i have trouble understanding why this developmental dynamic does not hold true for BDSM people.

Not everything you were taught was right! ;) I say that with respect. Studies on the cause/origin of sexual orientation have been conclusive. The debated between nature and nurture is still going on. For every study such as this one that says that one is either gay or straight, there are other studies being done to prove that everyone is bisexual. Kinsey was one of the pioneers of such research and he came up with a scale for sexuality that rated people from hetero to homo with everything in between.

quote:

i can follow Lady Angelika's posts on the subject; how interaction with other peoople impacted her. It did not chage who she was sexually, but it changed how she interacted with others. i think if we are honest, we are all different in our interaactions because of our histories.


Oh my! Oh no, my sexual orientation has been a battle and a half darling!! I went though about 7 years of my life with the wrong sexual identity. I sometimes joke about being a "recovering lesbian". I am identify as bisexual—for lack of a better word— today. I am attracted to women but they aren’t the object of my desire. Also, I have come to realise that though I did love a woman once, I more then likely cannot love a woman the same way I know I can love a man. I went to see a highly recommended therapist when I came out as a lesbian at 20. That didn't change a thing because I was convinced this was me. The therapist actually helped me embrace my assumed sexual identity and told me that often, when lesbians still have sexual desire for men, that is because they were socialised to want this. Now that might be true, but in my case, it wasn't. So in fact, going to see a therapist reinforced my sexual identity choice.

So now you can see perhaps why experts giving their opinion on my sexuality is such a sore spot for me! What I did to figure it all out was a minor in sexuality. I did my own research ;)

quote:

What confuses me is tha apparent fluidity of some people between the different "sexual orientations". Sometimes i think people refer to themselves as bisexual in part to avoid be labeled or expected to conform. That's terrific..as long as the sexual gratification and relationship building also occurs.


I think that people would not identify regularly, out and openly as bisexual if it wasn’t true. Believe me. It doesn’t make you more popular, it just creates a lot of drama. My parents went through hell explaining to people… “well yes she dated a girl for two years, but now she is dating a guy…” and my parents are extremely conservative and private people. I wish I could have spared them some of this.

Hope this helped some ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to pleasureforHim)
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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/6/2005 5:38:48 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		LA made a great post on this, but I'm gonna give my own slant since it's a bit different.
quote:

ORIGINAL: pleasureforHim
This sheltered woman needs help understanding the sexuality of BDSM people.

Ditto what LA said, sexuality has no bounds, this affects all lifestyles and cultures.

quote:

bisexual women who prefer men (at least that's how it sounded)

bisexual women who prefer women (same caveat for all these catagories)

het flexible (which i did not understand)

bi curious (how long can one remain curious before one is moved to the "bisexual" catagories?)

The same way someone is still "curious" about submission when they first stumble onto a few websites. How long one remains depends on the person, what they choose to experience and when they feel confident in their assessment.

For me bisexuality is not just one Kinsey line, 1-10 with a 5 being bisexual. Bisexuality is actually TWO lines, one for attraction to males, one for attraction to females. I am a 10 for attraction to males, but only about a 6 for attraction to females. A bisexual person can be anywhere along those two lines, but the difference is simply that they HAVE two lines- they ARE somewhat sexually attracted to both males and females.

Yes it can get confusing, but remember like submissives, some are control oriented, some are service oriented, some are pleasure oriented. You have to get to know what that particular person means by and operates in the overall term of "submissive." The same holds true for "bisexual."

quote:


Please, please do not be offended -- but it appears people change their sexual orientations in their 30's and possiblly later. Apart from gay and lesbian people who have been closted, i was taught sexuality was a part of the personality formed as the teenager becomes a young adult..and certainly by age 25, unless some pathology was at work. i have trouble understanding why this developmental dynamic does not hold true for BDSM people.

Actually I'd agree that for most people, orientations are pretty solid by the time we are adults. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we feel free to explore and EXPRESS those orientations. Why do you think the majority age of people entering and in the scene now is well over 30? In a culture where "deviant orientations" are very repressed, it is only now that everyday people have access to such environments and where communities are common enough that full grown adults feel free enough to start to begin to explore and experiment with their full selves.

I think this will change as society becomes more accepting of deviance, and as access grows to younger people, they will begin to express their deviance in all forms at a much higher rate at a younger age.

quote:


What confuses me is tha apparent fluidity of some people between the different "sexual orientations". Sometimes i think people refer to themselves as bisexual in part to avoid be labeled or expected to conform. That's terrific..as long as the sexual gratification and relationship building also occurs.

Some people are very fluid. One of my best friends identifies as a lesbian at heart, and yet she loves her male master and loves having sex with him. You have pansexual, omnisexual, asexual, and other variations as well. Sexual orientation is anything but written in stone.

(in reply to pleasureforHim)
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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/6/2005 7:50:41 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

For me bisexuality is not just one Kinsey line, 1-10 with a 5 being bisexual. Bisexuality is actually TWO lines, one for attraction to males, one for attraction to females. I am a 10 for attraction to males, but only about a 6 for attraction to females. A bisexual person can be anywhere along those two lines, but the difference is simply that they HAVE two lines- they ARE somewhat sexually attracted to both males and females.



I think that is a useful piece of modelling. It reminds me of the Marshalk Interactive Method model for love and disciplne - not a single continuum, but rather two seperate continua.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/6/2005 4:36:17 PM   
pleasureforHim


Posts: 171
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you to all who wrote. i won't say i fully understand but i do feel a sense of *eyes wide open*.

pleasureforHim




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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/6/2005 7:30:23 PM   
MistressFire70


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

What is the difference between het flexible and bicurious?

- LA


My opinion is that bi-curious implies someone wanting to explore. Het flexible is someone who knows. Don't know if that makes sense, but you asked. LOL Of course, it's all semantics.

Fire


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you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/7/2005 4:04:38 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFire70

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

What is the difference between het flexible and bicurious?

- LA


My opinion is that bi-curious implies someone wanting to explore. Het flexible is someone who knows. Don't know if that makes sense, but you asked. LOL Of course, it's all semantics.

Fire


Yup. That's pretty much in line with what Em said.

Again, makes sense!

Thanks :)


- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/7/2005 6:12:56 AM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps this will help pleasureforHim

I am quoting from Chapter 7 page 213-216 of Psychology (second edition) 1994 by Peter Gray (Worth Publishers, New York)

Brain Mechanisms and Early Develoment Effects of Hormones

I am only going to quote parts of this or it would be way too long but I urge you to read the book yourself. The full chapter contains the specific authors and studies supporting the various points made. Most of the testing/experimenting was done on rats but applies to humans.

"...separate neural systems are involved in the control of male and female sex drives...the male sex drive lies in the medial preoptic area of the hypothalamus....female sex drive is the ventromedial area of the hypothalamus...."

"...male-female brain differences responsible for the different adult sexual behaviors are determined by the presence or absence of the hormone testosterone during a critical period of development that begins before birth..."

"A specific gene on the Y chromosome causes the growth of testes (the male gonads) from structures that would otherwise grow into ovaries (the female gonads)...Before birth the testes begin to produce testosterone. This hormone has a masculinizing effect on the brain and other body structures....Within the brain, testosterone produced before birth acts on the hypothalamus to promote the development of neural systems involved in the male sex drive and to inhibit the development of those involved in the female sex drive."

"...the hormone must act within a critical period...The critical period for testosterone's effect on the brain is later then that for its effect on the genitals. Thus, manipulation of hormones at the appropriate time can produce animals that have the genitals of one sex but the brain structures and behaviour of the other..."

"...experiments...showed that stressful events experienced by pregnant rats can influence the future sexual behaviour of their male offspring, apparently by reducing the level of prenatal testoterone."

Prenatal Brain Develpment and Sexual Orientation in Humans (page 214)

"...About 4 percent of men and 2 percent of women are almost exclusively homosexual, and a larger percentage (harder to pin down) are strongly and consistently bisexual, attracted to both sexes (Bell & others, 1981; Kinsey & others, 1948,1953).....The largest and most sophisticated study of sexual orientation to date, involving interviews with hundreds of homosexual and heterosexual men and women about their childhood and adolescent experiences, found no significant support for theories about social causes (Bell & others, 1981)....The study did show, however, that whatever its cause or causes, sexual orientation is a deeply engrained and early-emerging part of one's being."

(page 215)
"Recntly, neurobiologist Simon LeVay (1991) found evidence of an anatomical brain difference between homosexual and heterosexual men..{My words....he used three groups...homosexual men who died from AIDS, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women}....He focused on a nucleus in the hypothalamus that is believed to be homologous (evolutionarily related) to the sexually diamorphic nucleus found in rats and other nonhuman mammals. Other researchers had already shown that this nulceus is larger in heterosexual men then in heterosexual women, and LeVay confirned that finding. In addition, however, LeVay found that this nucleus was on average less then half as large in the homosexuals' brains he studied as in the male heterosexuals' brains he studied. The difference was not due to AIDS; the nucleus was no smaller in the heterosexual men dead of AIDS then in the other heterosexual men and was significantly smaller in the homosexual men even when the compariosn was restricted just to victims of AIDS."

"Keep in mind that LeVay's study is correlational, not experiemtnal. It cannot tell us for sure what is cause and effect. However, assuming that his finding is repeatable, it does suggest that sexual orientation in men results at least partly from something that happens prenatally. And...that something probably has to do with prenatal testosterone levels or with chemicals that interfere with testosterone's effects."

Other studies supporting these finding are Ellis & Ames, 1987; Ellis & others, 1988; Bailey & Pillard, 1991.

Okay...you problably did not really want to know all of that and if I could have found a link I would have used it. Any spelling mistakes are My own from typing this in long-hand.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to pleasureforHim)
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RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/7/2005 8:07:23 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you GL - absolutely fascinatingstuff - and I apreciate you paring it down to a consumable size.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Straight, Gay or Lying - 7/7/2005 3:09:01 PM   
pleasureforHim


Posts: 171
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline 		Gentle Lady; i thank you for the research and the difficulty of having to retype it in a post. It confirms what my gay and lesbian friends have told me as we have discussed sexual orientation, and which seemed to me to be instinctively true. Sexual orientation is as much a part of one's "self" as the color of one's eyes, and cannot be changed. It can be kept a secret from one's family and employer; it can be ignored while one remains celibate, inasmuch as sexual activity is not necessary for survival, but it cannot be changed.

This simple fact drives my sensitivity to hate words and such. If, while we marched for Civil Rights, bigots had suggested that blacks just began having white babies, we would have thought them even less reality-connected than we already did. .i've been in chat rooms, watching hetero "Doms" chasing lesbians, usually young women, and called it disrespectful, only to be told it was "all in fun". i fail to see the fun in it.

i appreciate the article for allowing me to understand the catagory of "bisexual" even better than the earlier posts did. i guess one reason it is hard for me is because, at my age, i never met anyone who identified himself/herself as bi. But then i never met a Dom or Domme, eiher, and i have no reason to doubt they exist, so i am trying hard to expand my vision and certainly my respectfulness of all people. For me, you are what you say, period.

pleasureforHim






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