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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:54:57 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
There is a reason why real wants you to calculate 110 floors of pancaking, instead of the 70 that actually happened, on dozens of films.  It pancaked starting at the impact point.

It does not matter at what floor any hypothetical pancaking started if the data supplied by RealOne were correct. If the potential energy of a tower was 110 000 kWh (it is a weird number) and if it takes 135 000 kWh to pulverize 90 000 tons of floor, then there is a 25 000 kWh problem.



yes! However:

we havent talked about the energy required to create teh pyroclastic cloud.
we havent talked about the energy required to drop the exoskeleton.
we havent talked about the energy required to drop the core.
we havent talked about the energy required to make and keep molten flowing iron for 7 weeks even with the fire dept pouring millions of gallons of water on it during that period.
we havent talked about the energy required to "vaporize" some of the steel to sub micron levels.

Anyone know what temperature steel vaporizes at?

In short you will need well over 200,000+ kwh to accomplish this which  not just a "little" more but more than twice the energy than what was availiable.

We arent talking a little 1 kw anomoly here we are tyalking a phenomenal difference between the required and what is availiable, and we have not factored in any of the above.

adding up the energy is a zero sum game.







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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:55:41 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

There was a tower block in London called Ronan Point, which collapsed as you describe. The point im making is that although there was a pancake collapse of one side of the building, the inner core remained intact.

Im guessing the impact of the plane may have damaged the inner core in some way. Yet i think i saw a link where somone who had designed the building said any impact from an aircraft would only affect the outer walls.


I mentioned the shear connectors already. As one floor collapses onto another the vertical force is transferred into the concrete core via the shear connectors in a way the core would never have been designed to cope with. Dynamic loading is considerably worse that static force.

You shouldn’t be taking advice from architects on what keeps a modern building standing. They can tell you about how they’d like the building to look for planning purposes, what the internal space allowances should be, what the M+E requirements are and acoustics. They know little of structures as this has become a specialist discipline. It’s scary how little some architects know about structural stability in fact.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 12:59:43 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		explain the vaporization of the 35W bridge when there was absolutely no evidence of a thermo nuclear device, then some of the issues regarding the towers are solved.

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:00:36 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Ronan Point is not a good example as from memory I recall it being a precast structure with poor workmanship in the first place. There was no key element design in that structure meaning a disproportionate collapse occurred. Also in such precast structures the ends are grouted in place. This would not have been able to transfer the vertical dynamic forces, from a collapse, into the cores thats probably why they remained intact.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/25/2007 1:04:34 PM >

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:05:52 PM   
GhitaAmati


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle


You shouldn’t be taking advice from architects on what keeps a modern building standing. ~snip~ It’s scary how little some architects know about structural stability in fact.


Absolutly agree here....architechs draw pretty pictures, engineers tell you how to make it work and still be structurally sound. Two different perspectives....sometimes they dont agree....when in doubt, ask the engineer.

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RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:07:16 PM   
GhitaAmati


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

explain the vaporization of the 35W bridge when there was absolutely no evidence of a thermo nuclear device


Space Aliens


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:11:20 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietDom
As much as I don't want to get involved in this discussion, it is curious that the conspiracy theorist's math depends on the force required to pulverize concrete into an aerosol.  One would think that smashing it to rubble would be quite sufficient to enable the pancaking, and not need so much energy.  In addition, the figure for the gravitiational potential energy of the tower reflects the structure alone.  The actual masses involved are those of the tower structure, PLUS one large airplane, its cargo and its passengers, PLUS 110 floors worth of furniture, partitions and so forth.  If you consider those masses to be negligible, go pick up a concrete block.  Heavy isn't it?  Now pick up a standard 3-drawer filing cabinet full of files -- not so negligible, is it, even relative to concrete?


No thats not how it works.

No matter how much "stuff" you pile up, you can make it 10 mile high scraper and the most energy you can get out of it will still result in a zero sum game.


quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietDom
All that aside, the best explanation I've heard for conspiracy theories says that they are comforting.


To the contrary they are very discomforting.


quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietDom
To the conspiracy theorist (says this account) the world feels much safer if you believe that all major or significant events are controlled by people -- some shadowy and all-powerful cabal somewhere.  Thinking that the people in charge are secretive and malevolent is still not as scary as the truth that nobody is truly in charge.


Well then you will have to add kennedy, nixon, and i forget who the other president was, I think ike who all seems to disagree with that.








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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:12:05 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

explain the vaporization of the 35W bridge when there was absolutely no evidence of a thermo nuclear device


Space Aliens


What about under-humans?  They have really advanced mining technology, living under the Earth's crush for all these millions of years.  They could've sent mining nanobots up through the base of the building, which subsquently mined the building's support into rubble!

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:13:20 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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Status: offline 		Reptilian wizards from space were responsible for the World Trade Center bombings.  They did it to mask a massive satanic ritual at their secret base in Antartica.  Their power generators are the real reason behind the hole in the ozone layer down there.   

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:13:56 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

explain the vaporization of the 35W bridge when there was absolutely no evidence of a thermo nuclear device, then some of the issues regarding the towers are solved.



Egads!

was it tested for tritium?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:14:32 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Why do you want to believe in all of these conspiracy theories?

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:17:56 PM   
GhitaAmati


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Status: offline 		It gives us something to do.....we dont all lead interesting lives like you.......

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:21:18 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Would the shear connectors not become the weakest link, rather than the core they are welded too ?  I would imagine they carry the transverse load rather than the vertical load.



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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:25:04 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		I still think people would rather their government was controlling things than accept outside influences had an effect once in a while.

Conspiracy theories are better for some as it’s a case of better the devil you know. Although if you think your government would go to those lengths you don’t know them at all.

The biggest thing that works against conspiracy theories is that fact that there is always a simpler explanation. Previously I have read here how Tomahawk Missiles flew into the pentagon instead of a plane. What you have to ask yourself is, and I know I’m repeating myself, why use missiles? If you want it to look like a plane use a plane it’s not like Boeing haven’t demonstrated a remote controlled one is it?

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/25/2007 1:26:04 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:26:47 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

explain the vaporization of the 35W bridge when there was absolutely no evidence of a thermo nuclear device, then some of the issues regarding the towers are solved.



Egads!

was it tested for tritium?



More to the point was it tested for bird shit ?   = acid = corrosion

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:29:19 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Why do you want to believe in all of these conspiracy theories?


its not what i "want" cl, its what I am stuck with.   WHat I want is for the american people to wake up and realize that we "can" change things.  When you have presidents and senators complaining about shadow governments i would think that would be the only warning people would need to take action but we have pacifiers that are very effective.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:32:55 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Would the shear connectors not become the weakest link, rather than the core they are welded too ?  I would imagine they carry the transverse load rather than the vertical load.





If the purpose of the cores was solely for lateral stability as you suggested you’d think so. If however the connectors are over designed due to rules of thumb being used and unrealistic safety margins added it’s anyone’s guess. I think you also have to consider if bending moments were induced in the core walls due to the towers not falling exactly in the vertical direction. People forget these towers were very slender and very high. There is a lot of potential energy stored up there.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:37:10 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I still think people would rather their government was controlling things than accept outside influences had an effect once in a while.

Conspiracy theories are better for some as it’s a case of better the devil you know. Although if you think your government would go to those lengths you don’t know them at all.



So you are also willing to discount that the very first conspiracy theory regarding 911 was the one the government sold you, but independents organizations and people are not allowed the same consideration?

The government provided nothing more than a theory and if you want to get your hands on OBLS medical records you cannot get them even through the FOIA channels.  It has been tried and failed.  

What possible reasons would our honest government have to hide that information from us of all things?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:41:09 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

It gives us something to do.....we dont all lead interesting lives like you.......


You type, as two men are taking turns paddling your bottom.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Conspiracy theories - 8/25/2007 1:45:02 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Why do you want to believe in all of these conspiracy theories?


its not what i "want" cl, its what I am stuck with.   WHat I want is for the american people to wake up and realize that we "can" change things.  When you have presidents and senators complaining about shadow governments i would think that would be the only warning people would need to take action but we have pacifiers that are very effective.


You want it to be the government's fault, because the government is something you can change?  Toss out this corrupt government, and then the world is suddenly perfect?

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Profile   Post #: 60
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