Two questions psychiatry related but..... (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/25/2007 6:26:42 AM)

Of course I am a bondage nut.

I would love to have a Segufix system, or Humane Restraint, but something has occurred to me.

Other than possibly for transport which would be closely watched by an attendent or officers, why do they need to be locking ?

I mean do they leave a patient tied to a bed while the others mill around ? Or are some of the staff too softhearted and would release a patient prematurely ?

I've read a bit and it seems most civilized countries have some pretty strict rules about restraint, especiall on patients, not so much prisoners. Don't you think it a bit unwise to leave someone restrained but not isolated, or only in the room with others who are restrained ? )other than staff)

Now I can understand about transport, especially for the criminally insane or those incarcerated, they could have friends on the outside ready to try and spring them, but in a locked room alone, why ?

Now of course there are the ambulatory restraints, many times the wearer can easily reach the other limbs, so they have to be locking. But if you look at bed restraint systems, there is just about no way one can free themselves. Or are some people such great escape artists ?

Or do they do it for the psychological effect ? As much as some would very much appreciate locking hospital restraints (wink wink), why do they exist, other than as ambulatory restraints ?

The aside is this : I had a few buddies who abused a prescription drug called preludent. Taking the name along with exactly what it was, takes on an ominous light in my mind. The pill was a very powerful amphetamine with a thick coating of a powerful barbiturate. Now these pills were of course stolen, as is any really pure PCP anyone gets their hands on. Actually PCP is a horse tranquilizer, since horses don't sleep in the usual sense, they pretty much have to operate on million dollar race horses standing up sometimes.That drug has such a numbing effect you could cut your own arm off and not even blink. But the preludents were intended for humans.

I believe that preludents existed because mental wards needed to make more money. Give a patient one of these the day before a sanity hearing and the gravy train does not stop. They slept, but now are speeding in the morning.

A long time ago I sometimes abused drugs, not all the time, but occasionally. I don't anymore. But I did do a washed preludent a long time ago. By washed I mean the speed heads would wash the coating off and just take the amphetamine. Some would cook it down and run it, but I never ran anything. The point is, I took I think two washed ones orally and I was up for three days. Literally drank and couldn't get drunk, didn''t need to eat or sleep at all. And let me tell you, I had tried other ampetamines and none of them even worked on me. I could do a bunch of black beauties and go to sleep. Some people are like that, it is not a matter of tolerance, it is a matter of body chemistry or something.

For this small amount to work like that, I can guess what the effect would be of preludents on a person who reacts normally to such drugs. Perhaps, perhaps if I were to be given this treatment, in a mental ward, given this pill, the way I am I might be able to remain coherent on the stand. Over the years many ex-drugabusers have learned how to act straight when the cops are around, or clear their head to handle an emergency. Not the optimum situation, but better than having someone around to rescue you who can't overcome their buzz and figure out what to do.

Is it possible that the things we see in the movies sometimes really happen ? A Woman at the desk of the head of an institution giving him a pile of money saying "And keep him here".Another example is Terminator 2, one of my favorite movies. Sarah Conner was in a mental institution, yet evidence existed that she was not nuts, and telling the truth. But for year she languished in a mental ward while they explored the future technology. She was there because they wanted her silenced, and wanted the technology for themselves.

Now there is alot of stuff in movies that happens very rarely, but how rarely. This is mass media and they are openly saying that this can happen. When the movie is not some whacked out sci-fi, it has every possibility of happening, and it would be a safe assumption that it does, because the same fictional motives and greed involved are extant in real life. (really ?)

So we know it happens, we just don't know how much. Things like this make me start to really wonder just how many innocents are in prison and how many sane people are in mental institutions.

Insurance companies pay big bucks to keep someone in a mental ward, likewise, in this country the federal government imburses money to the states for incarceration, on a per head basis.

Let's put it this way, any of you got big money, invented something or such ? Getting to where millionaires can be called trash ? About to unviel a new product, and got a greedy nasty spouse who is pissed at you ?

Let's say when Bill Gates was younger, getting rich but say 25 years ago. Some people at Apple have some connections. Put something in his drink. Get him in a mental ward. They got plenty of money. IF they would have conspired to get rid of Bill Gates in this way, with no legal culpability, they would probably be alot more prosperous.

T




MisPandora -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/25/2007 6:54:02 AM)

What's your question and what does any of this have to do with the kink community?




Aswad -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/25/2007 11:51:49 PM)

Quick answers:

Restraints can be required to prevent a patient from tearing themselves up, killing people, gouging out their own eyes, or banging their head against something hard until it "just don't hurt no more". While most of us nutcases are sane enough to do without, there are some of us who aren't. I'd take a Humane Restraints rig over sedatives any day (and not just because one type kills me and another turns me homicidal ... no, make that genocidal), despite a faint claustrophobia. It's just better, period.

That said, I think you may be thinking about Preluden (phendimetrazine), a regular CNS stimulant that has the effects you'd generally expect of a compound in that class. It does not contain amphetamine, although it works in a similar fashion. It is not covered with a barbiturate coating, at least not if it was the real deal. And it does not have any kind of resemblance to the dissociative anaesthetic PCP (phencyclidine; "angel dust") in any way, shape or form, whether chemically, clinically or recreationally. Neither is PCP used in veterinary anaesthesia anymore. Quoting the DEA, "PCP is no longer produced or used for legitimate purposes."

Your reaction to phendimetrazine is probably due to being a rapid metabolizer, so you ended up converting more of it to regular phenmetrazine than usual, potentially giving you the equivalent effect of one gram of street-grade amphetamine without expecting it at the time. And the equivalent dose of amphetamine would be lethal if you didn't have plenty of built-up physical tolerance to it in advance, so you have probably not tried an adequate amount of amphetamine. The reason you were up for three days straight is the substantially longer duration of action seen with phendimetrazine than with amphetamine due to the slow breakdown to phenmetrazine.

As to how many people are wrongfully under inpatient care? Quite a few. But those make up only a small fraction of those who are under inpatient care, with the majority being people who actually have a good reason to be there. It's a financially unviable way to put someone away, compared to putting a bullet in them, at any resource level.

If you're trying to imply a conspiracy, you might want to spell it out, as it isn't leaping at me.

Which might be saying a thing or two, with my imagination...

Edit: Just to add a kink angle, if anyone gets me a Humane Restraints set for X-mas, I'll be very happy. [:D]




Celeste43 -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/27/2007 10:29:09 AM)

Ever go into a nursing home? Alzheimer patients are routinely restrained to keep them from wandering off. Better than searching for them in the dead of winter and finding him frozen to death.




Termyn8or -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/27/2007 2:12:52 PM)

Celeste, I agree. Some need to be restrained, and not to a bed. Just to not go get lost. Of course that is why I thought the doors had locks on them.

Aswad, I am not talking about a major conspiracy here, just a few people who are doing wrong together, not an intitutionalized conspiracy like the US government.

If you are not taling about a drug that is a powerful stimulant, whether classifiable as an amphetamine or not, which is coated with a barbiturate, I doubt we are talking about the same drug. I have seen them, used them and that is what they are. OF course you are not in the US. Perhaps that drug was for the US market only.

I fully agree that some patients need to be restrained. That was not the point, the specific point was, why would bed restraints need to be locking ? Are they left out in the dat room with the other patients milling around ? Are they outside ? If restrained and helpless they should surely be in isolation, and with a quick look at the HR and Segufix systems, even if they didn't lock, you can't get out.

There is a story purported as true, of a prisoner in a correctinal institute who was put into a restraint chair, helpless of course, and rolled out into poulation. Other inmates put a bucket over his head and proceeded to beat the bucket with various items. This was totally inapropriate action on the part of the correctional officers.

Aswad, I knew you were going to get into this one, welcome. The thing is, you restrain someone to a bed, but leave the person at the mercy of the unrestrained criminals or the mentally troubled ?

As I said, I can understand ambulatory restraints being lockable, but in that scenario, why ?

But getting out of the institutional aspect of all this, I would also like an HR restraint system, but even better would be a segufix. Ever seen one ? They are made in Germany. They have a magnetic lock, which incidentally was tredesigned a few years agod because someone found out that ant strong magnet would unlock it. Just who found that out BTW ?

Now to unlock it requires two strong magnetic fields.

Question remains, who made this modification necessary ? Other patient/inmates, or sympatheic nurses who would release a patient against doctor's orders ? If the same rules do not apply to bondage in that scenario, like they do in a scene for kink pruposes, I would be surprised. Apparently the rules have been broken.

when we kinksters get someone tied up helpless there are rules. Locking restraints are only called for when the bottom is allowed enough freedom to reach other limbs, which would allow him to free himself. And when he can't, we have a very strict set of rules, you can't leave the premesis, no falling asleep, no getting drunk or intoxicated. The leaving thing is what I am after. Do you tie someone down to a bed and then roll them out into a room filled with people that the courts deem worthy of locking away from normal society ?

I don't think that is all that wise, do you ?

So why the locking restraints ? Do they tie up people they would like to see die if there was a fire ? Do they want others to try to free them in such an emergency and not be able ? Or is it the concious application of this that matters. Make them totally dependent ? That is the restraint question.

The drug question is different. I have used it and I know how it is. You might have never seen this particular drug, and I only did it twice. Once unwashed, once washed. Although I no longer do drugs, I know what is what.

And for the conspiracy theory, some people in this country seem to have unlimited resources. In such a case they are not concerned with cost. In such a case it might be better to not create a martyr. To discredit some of what the victim has said. There are many reasons, and even ten thousand a month to keep them in doesn't even break a sweat.

The only big conspricy I see is producing certain drugs and certain restraints. They do not act on it, just produce the products. But these products seem to be geared to enabling smaller conspiracies. Greedy spouses, competitors in business and who knows who else.

Enough for now. You say everything is fine, and I bet it is where you live, but if you come here you might form a different opinion. I have seen too much.

T




Aswad -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/27/2007 5:06:02 PM)

I've been in several, Celeste.

We don't restrain them in Norway, and don't find them frozen to death in the winter even so.
Something about keeping an eye out and having enough people on the job, I think.
The only runaways I've heard about have been in other contexts than that.

Of course, I could have seen an unrepresentative sample of places, but this reflects what I've seen where I've been.




IvyMorgan -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/27/2007 6:11:50 PM)

I think the NHS use quetiapine and olanzapine instead of physical restraints.  Both knock you right out.  The first is a first line treatment for bipolarity (just about anyone on a psych ward can have their diagnosis stretched to be some form of manic symptom somehow) but has recently been authorised as a treatment for drug resistant monopolar depression also (handy, that, really).  The second is an anti psychotic, and used in the treatment of anxiety, schizophrenia and lots of other things.  So, if you can't be manic, you can be psychotic, even though psychosis is a symptom of mania.  In other words, if you're really lucky, you can get both pills at once.

You don't want that.

I've never met anyone who had a positive response to quetiapine.  I've just met people who took longer than 25 minutes from taking the pill (or half pill in one case) to pass out.




catize -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/27/2007 6:29:32 PM)

In reply to comments on this entire thread:
In my area, anyone restrained is attended 1 on 1 by a staff member and the doctor is legally obligated to visit the patient once an hour to assess if restraints are causing damage as well as determine if it is safe to remove them. Due to the amount of work and time required, restraints are used as a last resort.
For demented patients, some nursing homes put ankle bracelets on the patient so if they walk through a door an alarm rings.  Other places have doors that open onlly with a key-card and a code needs to be punched in; this makes it simple for staff to leave but is too complicated for the confused patient.
Olanzepine (Zyprexa) is seldom used here due to side effects which can be long term.  Quietipine (Seroquel) has been used quite successfully to decrease a manic state without 'snowing' the patient.




catize -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/27/2007 6:31:30 PM)

OOOPS, quoted myself, lol




Celeste43 -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/28/2007 5:53:11 PM)

Enough people to watch, Aswad, is always important. In the U.S. however nurse's aides have very low pay, and respect, huge turnovers in staffing, critical shortages etc.

As far as I know, in nursing home, restraints are used to keep people from wandering and also to prevent removing IVs and other medical equipment, catheter bags etc.

The freezing to death was a man in his 80's, at home with his family. Wandered out in the middle of the night and the rest of the family was asleep. Found by a forest ranger friend late the next day. He, and the rest of the searchers, were striken by not being able to save the man and having to tell the family.




Alumbrado -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/28/2007 6:01:23 PM)

Has anyone answered the OP question about why a medical restraint system would need locks?  It isn't that hard...[:D]




valkyriesdaughte -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/28/2007 6:20:55 PM)

The medical restraint system have locks , oddly enough, to protect patients while they are being restrained. Restraints that are simply tied can actually be tightened by straining against them, which has a higher potential for injury due to skin abrasions, nerve compression, and  ipaired circulation leading ot tissue ischemia. A locked system will not either tighten or loosen.

When i worked inpt , the first level fo tx for extreme agitation was meds, but if at any time the pt posed an immediate danger to themselves or others, physical restraints were used, starting first with isolation if feasible, progressing to a locking waist belt, 4pt restraints or the "body bag". Chemical sedation ot the point of non responsiveness is generally not accepted practice, as the motivation is to allow the individual to regain self control and no longer be restrained. Simply sedating them into oblivion only works unless the drugs wear off: then you're back to square one, and it's impractical to indefinately drug someone into safe behavior.

All isolation rooms were camera monitored, additionally anyone in physical restraints were physcially visualized  every 15 minutes ( usually by a tech), assessed every hour for circulation, hydration status, and elimination needs; and vital signs every two hours, along with range of motion exercises ( one limb at a time). Trial releases were attempted every 4 hours, unless there was sufficient reason not to.

Restraints solely for medical safety (vs behavioral use) were slightly different- do not recall ever using a 4 pt system for medical reasons, mainly just a locked belt, and trhe checks were visualized every 30 minutes.





Alumbrado -> RE: Two questions psychiatry related but..... (8/28/2007 6:25:53 PM)

quote:

A locked system will not either tighten or loosen.


That is an advantage... also, a locked system will keep the subject from further freeing themselves if one hand is released for food or treatment.




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