RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (Full Version)

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smilezz -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/10/2007 10:58:06 PM)

quote:

Take Santa Claus for example... have you led your child to believe there was such a person?

<gasps>  you mean there isn't????? 

~smilezz~ 




MstrSkyWoIf -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/10/2007 11:17:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm afraid I'm one of those weirdos- I've never hedged any truth, bent any reality, withheld, lied or in any way misled my partner.  Again, unless it was an obvious fun game to us both.




This is also how I have lived my life to the best of my ability I do not come to be perfect at it but it is in my opinion necessary to build a foundation to a good relationship... The truth may sometimes hurt but it is always the write thing to do....




MstrSkyWoIf -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/10/2007 11:21:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

quote:

Take Santa Claus for example... have you led your child to believe there was such a person?

<gasps>  you mean there isn't????? 

~smilezz~ 


He comes to my house every year .... I do not consider this a lie Santa Claus is in fact about the spirit of giving... and about imagination... both have been shown to be healthy for the development of a child's mental health.




BitaTruble -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/10/2007 11:36:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Hi Treasure, great post.  I had a similar discussion in the White Lies thread in Ask A Master, which was interesting, and where most of my thoughts on the subject were shared.   But I loved what you said about your trust in him, and I feel the same.  I trust my Master to manage my world the best way he sees fit.  Whatever he tells me, he has a reason to, and I have no reason to question.  I don't need him to be all revealing, all the time, in order to feel secure with him.  Who he is as a Master and a man is what makes me feel so secure with him.


i would just ditto here but i actually do want to add something else.

himself will expose me to what he wishes to expose me to when he's good and ready. this i know and accept and i wouldn't even being to think to make a demand that it be any different. it's what i signed up for after all and, well, he's master, not me. i can give you a good example right now. when himself takes a blood sugar reading, i always ask what the numbers are .. sometimes he tells me, sometimes he doesn't. that's just the way it is. if we were a vanilla couple, i'd nag his ass until he told me ... of that i have zero doubt.

that said, i don't have the luxury of withholding and being anything less than completely transparent to him. ommissions or white lies from me to him will only serve to erode his authority over me. it's not my place to keep even the smallest of issues from him. were i to do so, then i might as well give up any semblance of an authority dynamic and quit calling the relationship we share m/s because i'd be the one to make determinations which i agreed, in the beginning, to let him make. himself knows if he asks for my opinion on any subject, he's going to get absolutely brutal honesty from me. period. he's not afraid of that, and asks my opinion on just about everything that effects his life and our life together.

when he asks me how i'm feeling, i tell him. i don't just say 'fine' unless i really am fine. if he wants to know what's bothering me at any given time, i tell him. if he doesn't ask, then i go to him and ask if i can speak with him and let him know. i always leave the choice and option in his court. my honesty with him must be absolute, he requires it and for me, it's completely effortless.

because of an accident i had yesterday trying to surprise him for his birthday this thursday, i'm not even allowed to keep those sorts of secrets anymore.

i would think it would require a lot more effort to tell little white lies to one's master than to be completely and utterly honest with them at all times. i know himself can handle it, he knows it, so why invite truble when there isn't any.

celeste




meatcleaver -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 3:44:58 AM)

When someone needs to let you know they are honest, trustworthy and have integrity, you should ask yourself why they need to let you know they are. The truth is they are probably none of these things. I would never trust anyone who insisted they actually lived up to these values, not unless they proved to me they were the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.




Bobkgin -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 6:42:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I know not of one soul who lives their life in complete honesty... or even just one area of their life.  We all to some degree fib, exaggerate, placate, backtrack, equivocate, obscure, prevaricate, fabricate, mislead, and yes... outright lie. 



Insufficient evidence to support the generalization.

Simply put, there are over six billion people on the planet. You don't know nearly enough of them, including those outside your culture/geographical area for your generalization to have merit.

The most you could say is you don't believe anyone is honest, based on your (limited) experience.




missturbation -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 8:51:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I know not of one soul who lives their life in complete honesty... or even just one area of their life.  We all to some degree fib, exaggerate, placate, backtrack, equivocate, obscure, prevaricate, fabricate, mislead, and yes... outright lie. 



Insufficient evidence to support the generalization.

Simply put, there are over six billion people on the planet. You don't know nearly enough of them, including those outside your culture/geographical area for your generalization to have merit.

The most you could say is you don't believe anyone is honest, based on your (limited) experience.



Read carefully Bob, i think you will find treasure stated 'she knew not one soul' so really there is no generalisation as she is referring to the circle of people she knows. *tuts at picky post*
 
Moving on .......i have been 100% honest with Sir so far in my relationship but considering its only been going a few months it does not mean that that is how it will always be.
Im pretty sure (cant be 100%) that Sir has never lied to me either. I know there are things He hasnt told me until after the event but for me that is not lieing.
I absolutely abhor lies if im honest, even the little white ones. I see no reason good enough tho tell them, but thats just me.




FirmhandKY -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 9:50:06 AM)

FR to Jaxsnax, bobkgin in particular, but to anyone else who makes the claim that "100% honest" is possible.

The human cognitive processes and consciousness were evolved to "manage the truth" or reality.  It's an inherent part of our human nature.  Period.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, and whether or not you attempt to be "as honest as possible" or to be "100% honest" with a single individual (I doubt that's possible, but it is certainly a noble goal), each individual still manages to "massage" their, and other's perceptions of reality from time to time, by the method of presentation, by omission of some circumstances or facts, by means and methods of emphasis etc, even if they do not outright fabricate.

We morally condemn the words like "lie", "deceive" and "dishonesty", so I won't use those words, but the basic concept is the same - managing what we say or do in order to achieve the outcome we wish or desire.  Anyone who really, truly, believes that they never "manage the truth" in some way at some time - even unconsciously - is likely deceiving themselves.

Firm




jaxnsax -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 10:17:26 AM)

Greetings
For easy reference, and since you directed your argument towards me, I am including my first response here J
I said:
Greetings
I am going to have to disagree with what you have said here.
Now yes, I agree that people are human, and that they make the same mistakes that ‘humans’ make; yet, to state that everyone at some time in their life has told some kind of lie is a generalization that is untrue. How do you know this?
You can not judge and label all others by your own standards. There are some out there who actually DO believe that a lie; no matter how small or how innocent; they believe that it is just plain wrong to lie to another person. For whatever reason. And to that degree, they do not tell lies; half-truths, they do not deceive, etc, etc.
To address the rest of what you said, that love and trust is based on knowing that a person will always be honest; that I will agree with. I do not feel love has anything to do with trust or honesty. A person will love who they will love; I do not believe that we have any control over that. Honesty and trust do not even enter into it.
( and before everyone starts arguing that without those two, a person can not have a healthy sustained relationship; I agree, but that would only be an opinion based on my own experiences and preferences )
 
No where did I say that I a person is honest 100% of the time. I only disagreed with the generalization that she made in regards to “we all”

know not of one soul who lives their life in complete honesty... or even just one area of their life. We all to some degree fib, exaggerate, placate, backtrack, equivocate, obscure, prevaricate, fabricate, mislead, and yes... outright lie.

Now of course, if you would like to argue the merits of what truth, and honesty are; when put in relation to our own perceptions; I am more than willing to do so. J I am sure that it would be a very spirited discussion.
jaxon




FirmhandKY -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 5:42:01 PM)

Do you, or have you ever worn makeup?

Dishonesty.

Have you ever had sex with a partner, but not had an orgasm, but failed to mention it to him, because "he didn't ask"?

Lying by omission.

Have you ever worn a push up bra?

Deception.

Have you ever worn clothing that either accentuated, or emphasized part of your body?

"Manging others' perceptions" ... lying.

If a small 98 lb female neighbor of yours was beat (nonconsenually) by her 250 lb weight lifter, steroid popping boyfriend, and ran into your house, afraid for her life, and the boyfriend knocks at your door, with a gun in his hand, wild-eyed and angry .... would you lie to him when he asked if his girlfriend had came over?

What would you think about a person that said "Sure, she's back in the bedroom!"

Lying for the benefit of others.

There's plenty of other examples.  All can be classified as dishonesty, deception, or lying.

As I said, someone who claims to be "always honest, and never lies" is deceiving either themselves, or you or both. "Manging perceptions and situations" is an inherent part of human (even animal) nature.

I'll concede that there may be a very small percentage of people who may not "lie".  If so, then they are in desperate need of psychological help, as they are dysfunctional human beings.

Other than that small possibility of such dysfunctional people (of which I've never heard of existing) ... yes ... "we all" is a perfectly appropriate generalization.

Firm




RRafe -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 5:46:10 PM)

Not being dishonest makes you dysfunctional?

How about refusing to answer instead?




TreasureKY -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 6:19:59 PM)

Stephann, I understand a little better now where you were coming from, but I do think you are deceiving yourself just a bit here.  You’ve stated:  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

... I know she wasn't asking if I was having my needs met.  She was asking if I was completely happy.
 

If her exact words were "Are you satisfied with just me?", I think she might have been asking if your needs were being fulfilled a little more than you believe… and it sounds as if you might have thought so, as well.   

Please consider this… if she was just asking if you were completely happy, don’t you think her question would have been more along the lines of "Are you happy with me?"  And if she was only asking if you were completely happy and you were, why would a simple answer of "yes" not have been 100% truthful?  

But your “truthful” answer didn’t stop at just answering what you say she was asking; you volunteered the information that you still would like the opportunity to enjoy other people.  It seems apparent that somewhere in her question, you also believed that she was referring to whether you were happy being monogamous.  Why else would you have even thought of adding that?   

If FirmhandKY asked me if I was happy in our relationship, it would never occur to me to say, “Yes, but there’s this fantasy I’ve always had…”  At least not unless that fantasy were one of great importance to me. 

You've also implied that your desires were not needs and you were willing to forego having them fulfilled… so why did you feel it was necessary to share those fantasies and desires with her?

It's information like that that sows seeds of insecurity.  It's what I mean when I say that perhaps FirmhandKY has not been completely forthcoming with me.  Why would he want to volunteer information that makes absolutely no difference, but that could cause damage if I do know?

I'm not talking about keeping something from me that does make a difference… like his having a relationship with another sub (we are monogamous), or his being seriously ill, or something like that.   I’m referring to inconsequential information that does not affect our relationship.   

FirmhandKY doesn’t feel it’s necessary to announce to me every time he thinks I don’t look my best.  If it’s because of some activity I’ve been involved in, he knows the information would be pointless.  He also knows that I’m very conscientious about how I look and if I don’t look my best, there’s usually a reason.  Making a point of being honest by informing me doesn’t serve a purpose and would most likely cause me to become very self-conscious and overly critical of myself.  If, however, it became the norm rather than the exception and FirmhandKY thought it was a problem, then he’d say something.  

It kinda comes down to the fact that FirmhandKY isn’t so selfish that he would sacrifice me in order to satisfy some self-serving ideal of being 100% honest, 100% of the time.   

As far as your situation, it just seems to me that you aren’t being truthful with yourself if you insist that you would have been perfectly satisfied being monogamous with her.  It’s apparently important enough to you that you’ve made it a condition for future relationships.




jaxnsax -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 6:26:39 PM)

Greetings
I still disagree.
And we can either broaden this to include the discussion on what is truth, and honesty; and how it is perceived by different individuals; or we can continue as we are here.
You say that the small percentage of people out there who may not lie are dysfunctional? I say that you have not met too many people in your life.
I wish you good humor and health
jaxon




Stephann -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 7:39:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Stephann, I understand a little better now where you were coming from, but I do think you are deceiving yourself just a bit here.  You’ve stated:  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

... I know she wasn't asking if I was having my needs met.  She was asking if I was completely happy.
 

If her exact words were "Are you satisfied with just me?", I think she might have been asking if your needs were being fulfilled a little more than you believe… and it sounds as if you might have thought so, as well.   

Please consider this… if she was just asking if you were completely happy, don’t you think her question would have been more along the lines of "Are you happy with me?"  And if she was only asking if you were completely happy and you were, why would a simple answer of "yes" not have been 100% truthful?  

But your “truthful” answer didn’t stop at just answering what you say she was asking; you volunteered the information that you still would like the opportunity to enjoy other people.  It seems apparent that somewhere in her question, you also believed that she was referring to whether you were happy being monogamous.  Why else would you have even thought of adding that?   

If FirmhandKY asked me if I was happy in our relationship, it would never occur to me to say, “Yes, but there’s this fantasy I’ve always had…”  At least not unless that fantasy were one of great importance to me. 

You've also implied that your desires were not needs and you were willing to forego having them fulfilled… so why did you feel it was necessary to share those fantasies and desires with her?

It's information like that that sows seeds of insecurity.  It's what I mean when I say that perhaps FirmhandKY has not been completely forthcoming with me.  Why would he want to volunteer information that makes absolutely no difference, but that could cause damage if I do know?

I'm not talking about keeping something from me that does make a difference… like his having a relationship with another sub (we are monogamous), or his being seriously ill, or something like that.   I’m referring to inconsequential information that does not affect our relationship.   

FirmhandKY doesn’t feel it’s necessary to announce to me every time he thinks I don’t look my best.  If it’s because of some activity I’ve been involved in, he knows the information would be pointless.  He also knows that I’m very conscientious about how I look and if I don’t look my best, there’s usually a reason.  Making a point of being honest by informing me doesn’t serve a purpose and would most likely cause me to become very self-conscious and overly critical of myself.  If, however, it became the norm rather than the exception and FirmhandKY thought it was a problem, then he’d say something.  

It kinda comes down to the fact that FirmhandKY isn’t so selfish that he would sacrifice me in order to satisfy some self-serving ideal of being 100% honest, 100% of the time.   

As far as your situation, it just seems to me that you aren’t being truthful with yourself if you insist that you would have been perfectly satisfied being monogamous with her.  It’s apparently important enough to you that you’ve made it a condition for future relationships.


Hiya Treasure,

To be fair, I think it took quite a bit of reflection after the fact to understand what and why I said the things I did.  Having said that, I don't have a transcript of the actual conversation; but it was clear in the context, that she was really asking if I was happy being in a monogamous relationship with her.  "Are you happy with me?" is a very different sort of topic than "Are you happy with just me?"  I don't know many people who would ask "Have you reached a level of physical and emotional contentment with the monogamous nature of our relationship?"

For this reason, kindly don't read into a complex that simply isn't there. 

As for the question of why I'd share fantasies and desires, this is the crux; the question as she posed it (at least as I stated originally) is hardly a 'bit.' There is no yes/no on/off answer.  As intimately as I knew her, it was intentionally open ended on her part, with the objective of hearing me say "I'm completely satisfied with having just you and no others either sexually or romantically."  Completely satisfied.  This is the conundrum.  If I ask someone I love, trust, and share a bed like that, I want her to tell me if there are fantasies she hasn't had fulfilled.  I want her to feel comfortable confessing that she has a crush on the stockboy or the guy across the hall or the plumber, whatever.  Unfortunately, not everyone wants that kind of honesty.

As I indicated at the end of my post though, I do desire that kind of honesty.  I don't want to have to decide how much of the truth to tell her.  I want to feel perfectly comfortable sharing everything with her; from the most mundane, to the most sick and twisted depths.  This doesn't mean I wish to be compelled to inturrupt dinner to say I had a fantasy of being cornholed by three midgets behind the Dairy Queen; it means that I don't and shouldn't feel that confessing these sides of myself will push her away.  This kind of honesty doesn't work for most people I believe, though.

But yes, we can agree; there were things that I wasn't truthful to myself about at different stages of my life.  The most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves.  We're also the most likely person to believe our own lies.  A great deal of reflection and introspection has done wonders for me.

Not that it's really anyone elses business or concern, of course.

Stephan




LATEXBABY64 -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 8:27:32 PM)

there is not one person who had not lied or been dishonest in someway on this site. or any site for that matter i guess what it comes down to is what you lied about and with whom did you lie to




RRafe -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/11/2007 8:29:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

there is not one person who had not lied or been dishonest in someway on this site. or any site for that matter i guess what it comes down to is what you lied about and with whom did you lie to


And if you had the guts to make it right after.




FirmhandKY -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/12/2007 5:35:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaxnsax

I still disagree.

And I suspect we will for a long time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaxnsax

And we can either broaden this to include the discussion on what is truth, and honesty; and how it is perceived by different individuals; or we can continue as we are here.

I think this is the crux of our disagreement.  I don't think that we are defining things exactly the same way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaxnsax

You say that the small percentage of people out there who may not lie are dysfunctional? I say that you have not met too many people in your life.

I beg to differ.

I actually have quite a bit of experience with people, both theoretical and in life.

No offense, jaxson, as you are still at the beginning of your life, in a time of idealism - and that's good and proper.

I have been through the mill, in both good experiences, and difficult experiences, and had the opportunity and motivation to delve into the human psyche in many ways.

If you are interested, I'd suggest researching evolutionary psychology.  If you are interested in what motivate human beings and some additional insights into behavior.

Regardless, I wish you good humor and health as well.

Firm




ExSteelAgain -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/13/2007 2:40:43 AM)

Treasure, you and Firmhand always produce great, thought provoking threads together.

Sure you can more or less prove we will all lie in some situation. That means we all lie to some degree as we go about our egocentric existences. (For some reason, I also really believe LA has never told a lie in her life.) In any case, what I do is look at what is important to the person I am with. There are common sense factors in a relationship that most would consider central to trust.

Insincerity may be a better way of saying what happens when we try to deceive someone. If I omit necessary information or slant information in a way that obscures facts, I’m being insincere. Large amounts of insincerity are damaging to trust.

For instance, if I am truly seeking to move into the poly arena and she has a hard limit with that, then I’m being insincere withholding information and it may be one of the reasons I wouldn’t mention something like that even in  fantasy erotic talk. Fantasies shouldn’t matter to either of you if there is no likelihood of them happening. Fantasies are not the truth, but they are not lies either.

It would be far more honest if I wanted poly to tell her directly and let her decide if our relationship was important enough that she would violate her hard limit. Her trust for me may even be enhanced by my openness or it could be permanently dealt a blow because she believed I would never go there.




jaxnsax -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/13/2007 6:33:13 AM)

Good morning FirmhandKy
I would also state that it is obvious our perceptions differ on this issue; however, I would point out that my age has little do with it.
I would also like to point out that I understand your stand on this; in fact, some of the things that you mentioned did give me cause to pause and think. It is of little importance though whether we agree or not J
Your suggestion that I research evolutionary psychology though; while appreciated; is not needed. I have studied the Science article by Michael Ghiselin; in addition to actually enjoying the book The Adapted Mind:Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture. I also have had the pleasure of reading George William’s Adaptation and Natural Selection. I have also studied the opposing views of Richard Lewontin.
Now, I agree, that just because I have studied some theories does not make me an expert on the issue.
Just as I am sure that you, being the reasonable, logical, life experienced person that you are; would agree that the difference in the number of years that you have put into this life does not make you an expert either.
You come across as an educated man; I truly would enjoy discussing the differences in opinion that we are having here. However, it is an insult to my intelligence for you to state that because of my age; my idealistic outlook is unrealistic.
I wish you good humor and health on this day
jaxon
 




Dnomyar -> RE: On Honesty, Love, and Trust... (9/13/2007 8:00:14 AM)

Send Santa by my house during deer hunting season. On telling a lie. Name one person on this planet who hasent told a lie in their lifetime. Reading a book by someone means nothing. You are only hearing their side. The purpose of a book is to try to pull you over to their way of thinking. They could be telling a lie.




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