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An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 2:36:57 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		Picking up on a thought from another thread I wonder if anyone would like to comment on what follows.

After a some number of years and interactions I have realized that with some partners or potential partners I am just struck by how beautiful—or sometimes ugly or just aesthetically uninteresting--their submission appears to be. Not how beautifully they do this or that in particular. Not even how beautiful is the person inside who is performing the submission. And it has nothing to do with their clothes or gear or physical attributes. It is more of a "whole thing." I can’t define it. Maybe it rings true for you or maybe it doesn’t. If it does ring true for you can you offer a better account than my weak one here, whether from the top or the bottom?

Is it the case for some submissives that in addition to or aside from everything else they just find one dominant's domination to be, well, more beautiful than that of another dominant?

If so, does it tend to over-ride other issues in selecting a partner? Or instead might you view it with suspicion? "His dominance is just a gorgeous thing to behold. but ... "

Or for you does it seem unwise or just useless to conceive of a person's dominance or submission as a sort of a whole thing in itself that can be evaluated or even just experienced as beautiful, ugly, or somewhere in between?

Thanks,

Noah
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 3:17:50 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It makes sense to me, and yes I've seen dominants that I have tremendous respect for but know that we absolutely would not be suited for eachother in a relationship.

As an exhibitionist and voyeur I react to the energy of people around me, I almost always make decisions to play (when I get the choice) based highly on what's going on around me, the energy of the scenes and the type of situations. For a dominant or submissive who is really into it and expressing it fully, that absolutely gets me in the mood.

(in reply to Noah)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 3:30:24 PM   
Isolde


Posts: 213
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Hamilton, Ontario
Status: offline 		I have very little experience with the aesthetics of submission and dominance, as observed in others, but I think I understand what you're describing. I've recognized it in other people in a number of different venues but I've always called it grace. Not physical grace but more...a sense of the way the whole of what they're doing settles around them. How gracefully it's worn or how it sinks into them and gives them that extra quality that catches the eye.

I'm describing it poorly. In my eyes, it appears as grace-comfort-confidence-calm. I can't think of how else to put it into words. It isn't just one of those things but a blending of all of them.

I have known dominant men and women who seem more comfortable with their dominance, more graceful with it than others. It lends them an appeal that seems specific to me- what I see and recognize in them isn't always seen or recognized in the same way by another. I've seen submissive men and women who exhibit the same quality and that makes them appealing to me as well, though not in quite the same way- it's more like admiring a work of art, something that I can appreciate and enjoy but not covet.

Were I choosing a partner, I think it would certainly factor into my regard for them but if that were the only thing that drew me to a person, it wouldn't be enough. As whole and lovely as it might make them seem at times, unless it was an expression of how beautiful they are through and through...

I'm not sure I understand why it would make me suspicious of a person though, unless it were a situation in which I felt I couldn't trust my own judgement because I was blinded by how well they presented themselves through this quality. My instincts are pretty good though, so that wouldn't be the case for me.

There. I'm not sure I answered your question or added to whatever debate might spring up, but this is what occurred to me after reading the OP.

(in reply to Noah)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 3:32:21 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

Is it the case for some submissives that in addition to or aside from everything else they just find one dominant's domination to be, well, more beautiful than that of another dominant?


I would say most definately yes -


quote:


If so, does it tend to over-ride other issues in selecting a partner? Or instead might you view it with suspicion? "His dominance is just a gorgeous thing to behold. but ... "


I think that if one doesn't understand their own boundries, it can most definately.

quote:

Or for you does it seem unwise or just useless to conceive of a person's dominance or submission as a sort of a whole thing in itself that can be evaluated or even just experienced as beautiful, ugly, or somewhere in between?


No, I don't think it unwise, IMO. I think (if I understand your inquiry correctly) that someone can be dominant, for example - and I can admire their dominance - and even be in awe of it - but I don't have to agree with that persons ideas or behaviour. In the same way, I can be in complete agreement with a Dominant and his ideas, yet find that their 'dominance' to me is non existant. So I don't think it unwise - I think as a person I should keep an open mind and the only time it would be unwise is if I let the influence of the dominance cloud my actions to the detriment of myself and people around me.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Noah)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 3:41:53 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		I think, really, it is all a matter of taste, and self-awareness.
Yes, there are boys who hold no interest for Me. And it has nothing to do with the physical appearance. it is in the attitude, the carriage, and the character.
Isolde put it very well.
I am speaking as a Female Dominant here, of course. Some boys would not care to be with Me, because what they need is a Lady who wears the costume and barks orders and is very domineering. Notice I say domineering, not Dominant. There is a difference.
Others would not want that, and seek something that is more representative for them in terms of Domination and submission.
I think it is part of what must be taken into consideration when choosing a Dominant partner, or a submissive partner. That is the reason some people are attractrive to us, and others are less attractive. It is all part of the search, and this is why I stress so often that it is importnat for anyone to work at having the best possible understanding of themselves. If you don't know what you want, how will you ever know what will really make you happy on a long term basis? Many go for the looks and the hot kink. It is so much more than that.


_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to Noah)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 4:44:50 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolde


So it seems as though you do have an aesthetic of dominance in the sense I'm talking about. When attributes of their "whole thing" as we're calling it prominently include include grace, confidence, comfort, confidence and calm then the whole thing, considered separately from these particular features, tends to appeal to you. Am I with you?

What I'm not asking about here is the old "what characteristics appeal to you" question and I think you have understood this, Isolde. I can imagine a submissive whose individual characteristics didn't appeal to me (insofar as it even makes sense to talk that way) and yet her "whole thing", in some way that has to do with synergy, manages to come together as, well, beautiful to me. Well I don't have to imagine it. I can recall the experience.

Think about a lovely photograph of a distasteful subject. This doesn't even make sense to some people I have heard from but to others it is perfectly familiar. Not that beauty can't arise from blending attributes which you appreciate separately too, as in your examples.

Your: "appreciate and enjoy but not covet." also suggests to me that we are talking about the same sorts of experiences--not that the failure to covet is key. It just highlights the phenomenon in certain cases, right? I hadn't focused on this. Thanks for pointing it out.


Noah







(in reply to Isolde)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 4:48:45 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

After a some number of years and interactions I have realized that with some partners or potential partners I am just struck by how beautiful—or sometimes ugly or just aesthetically uninteresting--their submission appears to be.


I had never thought of it that way.. looking back though it seems that you are absolutely right. I've met submissives that, IMO, just didn't seem "submissive" enough to me, that or they were "tooooo submissive", if that makes any sense.

quote:

Or for you does it seem unwise or just useless to conceive of a person's dominance or submission as a sort of a whole thing in itself that can be evaluated or even just experienced as beautiful, ugly, or somewhere in between?


I wouldn't call it a waste, I'm starting to realize that yes, I do look at the "whole package", not necessarily the physical attributes or the intelligence level, but at all of it. I know submissives that I wouldn't waste the energy it took to pick up a flogger on but have been some of the most incredible "eye candy" I've ever met. In the same respect, I know submissives that under normal circumstances you wouldn't glance at twice, but the whole package, the attitude, the "grace-comfort-confidence-calm" as Isolde said, is all there and is awe-inspiring.

quote:

I think, really, it is all a matter of taste, and self-awareness.
Yes, there are boys who hold no interest for Me. And it has nothing to do with the physical appearance. it is in the attitude, the carriage, and the character.


Dusty, you hit the nail on the head here. Just because one submissive isn't OUR personal ideal of submission doesn't take away from their submission. This thread has been a real learning experience for me. Thank you for starting it Noah.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Noah)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 5:11:02 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		I find comparisons odious, so I would never engage in a competiton of aesthetics, rank or rate those I have been with.

That being said, yes I absolutely know what you mean, though my phrasing is different than yours. I have had in the past, and fortunately have again, someone in whom I see a "supple spirit of submission" that I find aesthetically pleasing, and also spiritually satisfying. I have had D/s dynamics where my partner seemed graceless in her submission - I had to sort of beat it out of her (no doubt I must look to myself as well if I make that statement). But I have a particular appreciation for that suppleness in submission that is graceful and selfless and somewhow seems to be without labor. Love takes work, but there is work, and then there is working against your nature, and the later does not please me - it is not beautiful. In my own musings, I have drawn a parrallel to wu wei - sort of submissin without action or striving.


It is interesting to me that several people have said something like, "I could respect but not desire so and so's style." I am sure the statement is sincere, but I personally couldn't form any sort of aesthetic picture of someone I wasn't involved in and connected with emotionally. No doubt there are those who have a spirit of submission that doesn't fit me, but is still aesthetically pleasing - but I could never "see" them to appreciate that.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 5:11:48 PM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		I like to see it come forth naturally-one can always tell if submission is forced,or comes from a "role playing" attitude.

I tend to avoid those who present me with lists and rulebooks they have created. I'd like to know a bit about the person before one begins trotting out the baggage. And there needs to be a considerable processing power evident.

"Denser than lead" sorts tend to be very draining. If a person tends to reply on a mask, or artificially constructed personna-well,that becomes evident pretty quickly as well. There are considerable variables beyond that.

But they don't translate well here in cyber land.

It's not real till its real.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 6:15:11 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		i am not -- female -- so i have NO idea of THAT view but;

i will say this;
in talking to this new domme i am supposed to meet soon......HER ideas are indeed more laid back and easier going than "I" am familiar with.
i will try, to explain;
MY -------training-------is very cold, untouchable, non responsive, uninvolved.
it is what i was told is supposed to be.
now.
this new one, She has SOME difficulty, understanding this, but has SAID, She will start over, from scratch, block 1, and re train me, to a more involved setting. She is not upset at ME personally just because i am not familiar with such topics of intimacy and play and etc.
She finds it hard to grasp but not upset.

SOME i have spoken to, get ALL bent out of shape coz i am so loose n fancy free. "oh my gawd. that is not proper submisssive behavior" like the world just died.

so in MY eyes....the beauty of the difference of domination? yes i think so.
knowing cold and uninvolved and now being asked to be involved......yes.!
180 degree difference. i guess THAT is beauty, isn't it?


wolf

(in reply to Noah)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 6:44:33 PM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		I'm glad it seems to be working out for you differently this time lonewolf.

I'm sure that you will find MUCH more pleasure in service that is based on more positive aspects. It takes an excellent Dominant to be willing to start you over from square one. I'd like to offer you one tidbit of advice if you will.

This was the biggest difficulty I had in the past with previously owned girls-maybe it has some vaildity of Female/ male relationships as well. Do your best NOT to hold her up for comparison to your previous owner. Try to purge yourself of expectations beyond what SHE says she desires of you. Your next collar will fit very poorly if you refuse to take off that of someone who isn't even around anymore.

Best of luck to you guy.

(in reply to lonewolf05)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 7:07:58 PM   
KCAttitude


Posts: 10
Joined: 12/26/2004
Status: offline 		Excellant advice Gemeni.

And lonewolf I've been reading some of your posts and wish you the best of luck!

And to answer the OP, It seems you are speaking of relationship dynamics that you witness in others?? At least that's how I understood the question. I can relate. Seems that you are a people watcher like I am. And although I might see someone who is not a good match for Myself it's still very exciting, sometimes even arousing watching how they relate and communicate with others. The beauty of their submission as you put it.

I don't think it should over-ride other issues when selecting a partner. Just because they relate beautifully with others, doesn't mean they will relate the same way with you.



_____________________________

Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda

(in reply to Gemeni)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 11:57:07 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		Gemeni!

odd how a male will talk to me one on one but so very few females do.
and odd how You step up to the plate on this.

there really is no comparing, except say, the diffences between one that trained me to stay cold and aloof and one that wants me to re-learn and become more touchy feely.
it is going to be most difficult. especially since She warned me up front, that She is not going to spare the rod. nor will i become spoiled.
in fact, i am told, i may have a sore butt for awhile if i am not a good student.
i have mixed feelings on this point.
1 is i welcome the touching, but i am wary of breaking my perfect record of non punishment. and it may be that, i may not be able to hold my title for much longer. there is not going to be any coddling. if i screw up, i am told i will pay the price.
my 1st didnt get involved with me. so this is 180 degrees different for me.
mixed feelings. happy to find someone that claims She cares,.....
worried about the possibility of a discolored reddish rear end.

any way?
all this b.s. just to say thank You.
i always enjoy YOUR posts.
the wolf.......less than 24 hrs....oh holy shit!



< Message edited by lonewolf05 -- 7/17/2005 11:58:51 PM >

(in reply to Gemeni)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/17/2005 11:59:36 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		thank you KC!

(in reply to KCAttitude)
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RE: An Aesthetic of Submission and Dominance - 7/18/2005 12:30:24 AM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		Odd?

I simply can relate.

And don't mistake NICE for weak-always a big mistake!

Sore bottoms CAN happen either way!

We just have an annoying tendency to laugh while it happens.

So it's a bit of a toss up-enjoy!

(in reply to lonewolf05)
Profile   Post #: 15
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