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RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/24/2007 8:23:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

No Thanks - But it's much more fun and amusing to see the replies and laugh at the replies which make the point I was seeking. In this case, not only the fact that there was no consideration of how many blows to a conscience or unconscious person does it take before death or permanent damage; but that it only takes one blow to kill. How better to generate "proof" than to have experts like yourself make it for me.

Besides its better to show people's agenda by agreeing with their arguments and showing how they contradict themselves. You know, for instance the ones that say that "attempted murder" was not a correct charge, yet argue that one blow CAN kill - very amusing!

Isn't the point, not how many blows can kill or whether the intent was there but the fact that there is a differential between what blacks are usually charged with for a certain action and what whites are charged with for the same action? Racial discrimination is at the centre of this case for precisely that reason.

If just one blow meant a murder charge, every bar room brawl would end up in murder charges. It isn't so why not?

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/24/2007 10:59:59 AM

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quote:

If just one blow meant a murder charge, every bar room brawl would end up in murder charges. It isn't so why not?

MC,
"Could" end and not would end would be correct. It's up to the responding police and the prosecutor. "Bar room brawls" sometimes end up with attempted murder charges as well as murder charges - granted that they often do not; seems very similar to what happens with high school "brawls".

When an event ends up with one of the participants ending up in the hospital the "powers that be" at the hospital, and in every link of the chain which brought the victim to the hospital, add to the possibility of it becoming a serious charge. Whether it happens at a bar, high school, or church picnic is not and should not be in the consideration.

You and/or others can add the race aspect and determine if justice, or 'more equal' justice was applied, but from a pragmatic view - yes - every single punch thrown has the potential of ending in a murder charge.

To me that IS the point; digression and tangential aspects considered on their merit and/or lack of merit as they are disclosed at trial by testimony and evidence.

The consideration of "equal justice" is not as pragmatic. There is no "equal justice" in the US, but it is financial based not racial. Court appointed "free" representation is no match for $5000/hour plus cost legal team who can bring in $25,000 per appearance "experts" and $100k 'Jury Consultants'. Local DA offices aren't much of a "equal justice" opportunity against them either.

But the legal industry in place in the US is there because they enjoy the benefit of the largest and most powerful PAC in the world - the US Senate and House of Representative where lawyers represent the majority occupation of the members of both. Think they would put any law in place against their own industry?

It's similar to why there will never be an end of the 'Civil Rights' movement, the 'War on Poverty', or the 'War on Drugs'. Fighting the battle results in money being funded to both sides. "Winning" means the war's over, the troops come home, 'generals' such as Rev. Jackson retire, and tens of thousands of bureaucrats are out of a job. Who has and where is the incentive to 'win' any 'war'? Better to make it a relevant issue at every opportunity on either side. Money is generated by perpetuating the problem, not correcting it.

The whole issue of 'Jena 6' is one of overreaction on both sides. Once the "authorities" got involved agendas entered into the mix. Publicity generated a nation worth of agendas showing up; all with the goal of wanted their agenda to be "more equal". I find the debate amazing to be occurring in 2007, 40 years from the 'civil rights' movement. Its an issue of money. Without perpetuating "more equal" programs and policy there would not be a 'civil rights industry'. That would take a LOT of money off the table and its why we'll experience a 100 year anniversary of the 'civil rights' movement without practical change to the status quo.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/24/2007 4:30:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If just one blow meant a murder charge, every bar room brawl would end up in murder charges. It isn't so why
not?

My guess would be too difficult to prosecute.

There are any number of things which factor in to a blow to the skull which most people are simply unwilling to try to understand. So what ends up happening is that a person who hits somebody and doesnt kill them gets an assault charge, and somebody who hits somebody and does kill them gets murder or manslaughter.

I was simply pointing out that the infinitive statement "One blow to the head will not kill a person" was idiotic. One blow can kill. Is it likely to? Not really. Those are two different statements, and speak more to the ignorance of the person making the statement than to the merits of the case we are talking about.

A more reasonable assertion would be that a single blow to the head is unlikely to kill somebody, so the people in this case should have been tried for manslaughter or aggravated assault, as opposed to murder or attempted murder. Since it was a hate crime, that charge could be added to it.

Sinergy

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/25/2007 3:45:02 PM

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If he went to a party (or whatever) after he left the hospital, then he must not have been severely injured. That's the point!

And, I'm not sure you people know what a lynch mob is.

They're the ones with the rope and the noose, not the ones protesting against the noose!

(in reply to deadbluebird)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/25/2007 3:57:38 PM

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As an aside, people have gotten out of the hospital after being shot or stabbed, and gone out for recreation... doesn't mitigate the seriousness of putting them in the hospital in the first place.

The human body is a wierd thing... in some instances it takes enormous punishment and keeps fighting, in others, a minor impact leaves someone dead (see commotio cordis for example).

(in reply to Blaakmaan)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/25/2007 4:43:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

If he went to a party (or whatever) after he left the hospital, then he must not have been severely injured. That's the point!

And, I'm not sure you people know what a lynch mob is.

They're the ones with the rope and the noose, not the ones protesting against the noose!

Protesting is not beating someone up.

Or did that change? Because I would love to protest how my campus handles things and I've got this nice bat right here...

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(in reply to Blaakmaan)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/25/2007 6:33:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

If he went to a party (or whatever) after he left the hospital, then he must not have been severely injured. That's the point!

The article I read said that he went to his school's ring ceremony that night (the awarding of the senior rings?). He said he'd been waiting 11 years for that and he was not going to miss it for anything. I think to call it a party, as in drinking and dancing and carousing, is way misleading. I've known of people to leave emergency rooms even when seriously injured, so as not to miss a wedding or a graduation. Some life events are just that important.

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 9/25/2007 7:50:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

If he went to a party (or whatever) after he left the hospital, then he must not have been severely injured. That's the point!

And, I'm not sure you people know what a lynch mob is.

They're the ones with the rope and the noose, not the ones protesting against the noose!

So what you are proposing is that the hospital or doctor is responsible for doing the job of the District Attorney in order to determine what charges are appropriate to file.

Fascinating. Would your feelings about this be different if the racial parameters were reversed?

Sinergy

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(in reply to Blaakmaan)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 2:29:47 PM

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Jena Six now all have pled guilty! And admitted that the victim did not say or do anything to provoke his attacked from behind "beating".

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 2:37:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
And if black kids hung up something that has historically been a symbol of terrorism toward white kids, would you be as nonchalante regarding their actions?

What are you saying? They've been doing that for years. Every black comic that jokes about how fucked up white people are. Every one who uses the word cracker...or hell even "white boy."

I see comics, actors, even real people saying "you crazy white boy" in various instances. Flip it around. Have a white guy say "you crazy black boys" and watch the FIRESTORM of controversy.

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 2:40:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Protesting is not beating someone up.

Or did that change? Because I would love to protest how my campus handles things and I've got this nice bat right here...

It changed with Rodney King. You see....the definititions of the word protest have become synonymous with riot....for 'some' that is.

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 2:43:19 PM

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In this whole incident (being so near the town/state I heard it ALL), I can honestly say that I wish.....oh how I wish that the one white kid had been HEAVILY into martial arts.

Then he could have kicked the holy crap out of all 6....put THEM in the hospital (even if just for an hour before their "party").... but then we'd STILL be hearing bitching about the mean ol' white kid who beat up 6 black kids (as opposed to the 6 THUGS who BEAT DOWN one white kid and now do not want to be punished for it).

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 2:59:05 PM

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quote:

Every one who uses the word cracker...or hell even "white boy."

I see comics, actors, even real people saying "you crazy white boy" in various instances. Flip it around. Have a white guy say "you crazy black boys" and watch the FIRESTORM of controversy.

i don't support black people using racially derogatory statements towards whites or anyone else, but to compare comedians jokes to the symbolism of a lynching rope hanging from a tree is just insane....

i don't condone violence as a way to settle centuries old problems, but i understand the kind of rage that fuels these sort of attacks. It's a rage i would turn into poetry, or song, or a primal scream...now. But when i was 13 years old, and a boy called me a "n____r " in class, it was the same kind of rage that caused me to turn him and his desk over and beat the shit out of him. i don't condone it, but i sure as hell understand it.

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 3:19:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

i understand the kind of rage that fuels these sort of attacks.

But you miss the point that this victim did nothing to incite his attack other than being white. Somehow his being beatdown by six boys twice his size has been accepted, and marches had, and fingers pointed because "someone" told someone that a noose was talked about.

The JENA SIX picked out a kid and attacked him solely because of the color of his skin...yet they are now folk hero's to the black community because everyone "sure as hell understands it".

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 3:24:53 PM

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It's a plea deal....they don't always indicate guilt. You sign and admit something to lessen the severity of the punishment.

quote:

By pleading no contest, the five do not admit guilt but acknowledge prosecutors had enough evidence for a conviction.

Associated Press

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 3:36:27 PM

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quote:

It's a plea deal....they don't always indicate guilt. You sign and admit something to lessen the severity of the punishment.

So they didn't savagely beat up an innocent person? Gotcha. Nolo contendre pleas aren't technically admissions of guilt, true. But it is an admission that you don't wish to challenge the charges. They are damn lucky they got off on simple battery. What they did is 2nd degree battery in my state, and your reason for beating the hell out of someone doesn't factor into it. You don't have a right to physically attack anyone for any reason other than self defense. It wasn't the case in this incident. Yeah, we do have a long history of racial intolerance, no doubt about it. But it doesn't give anyone the right to do something like this. If someone raped a family member of mine, I might feel perfectly justified in beating him close to death with a pipe. I'm sure a lot of people would support me. But it's still against the law. You don't have the right to take the law into your own hands.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 3:50:56 PM

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slaveboy...i have no doubt that it was a violent attack, as indicated by my earlier posts. i just don't know whether the victim didn't do anything at all that would be considered inciteful simply because NOW a statement saying so was demanded of the attackers.

If you read my earlier posts, you see i don't condone violence of any sort to solve problems. my point was that i have felt the same rage as these boys at a point in life prior to becoming an adult, prior to developing mature coping mechanisms, and prior to understanding the full measure of the law. Prior to knowing that i should pity people that hate because of something so small as a difference in pigmentation.

i have felt the rage, and i'm from the suburbs of Long Island. It must be much worse in Lousiana where grand-parents can tell stories of family members that hung from the same trees they walked past every day. In this story, my heart went out to the victim, and his family, because no one deserves to be beaten so, but my heart also went out to the boys that beat him, because to be emotionally beaten is horrible as well. Let's hope as they become men, they have learned that hatred begets hatred...but that hatred begins and ends with each individual, if they are determined to do so.

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 4:55:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

It's a plea deal....they don't always indicate guilt. You sign and admit something to lessen the severity of the punishment.

So they didn't savagely beat up an innocent person? Gotcha. Nolo contendre pleas aren't technically admissions of guilt, true. But it is an admission that you don't wish to challenge the charges. They are damn lucky they got off on simple battery. What they did is 2nd degree battery in my state, and your reason for beating the hell out of someone doesn't factor into it. You don't have a right to physically attack anyone for any reason other than self defense. It wasn't the case in this incident. Yeah, we do have a long history of racial intolerance, no doubt about it. But it doesn't give anyone the right to do something like this. If someone raped a family member of mine, I might feel perfectly justified in beating him close to death with a pipe. I'm sure a lot of people would support me. But it's still against the law. You don't have the right to take the law into your own hands.

They got a nolo contendre plea for simple battery, a misdemeanor. That indicates to me that the young men had some rather strong mitigation to bring out in court since all 6 had previously admitted participating in the attack. I strongly suspect that what they had was many other witnesses to the victim displaying the noose.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 5:12:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

It's a plea deal....they don't always indicate guilt. You sign and admit something to lessen the severity of the punishment.

quote:

By pleading no contest, the five do not admit guilt but acknowledge prosecutors had enough evidence for a conviction.

Associated Press

They pleaded no contest according to this article http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090626/ap_on_re_us/us_jena_six_4 and made a statement as part of that....

"As part of the deal, one of the attorneys read a statement from the five defendants in which they said they knew of nothing Barker had done to provoke the attack.
"To be clear, not one of us heard Justin use any slur or say anything that justified Mychal Bell attacking Justin nor did any of us see Justin do anything that would cause Mychal to react," the statement said.
The statement also expressed sympathy for Barker and his family, and acknowledged the past 2 1/2 years had "caused Justin and his parents tremendous pain and suffering, much of which has gone unrecognized."

Now unless they were lying in their statement, I really don't see the justification in jumping the kid.

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RE: Jena 6 Day - 6/26/2009 5:26:02 PM

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Even if the statement is true, there's no justifying the attack. But it wouldn't be the first time such a statement was forced as part of a plea deal.

They're luckier than a lot of people who never even GET a plea deal...
i left NY and went to Alabama, where i lived for 8 years. It was quite an education in injustice in America. You'll pardon me if i approach such admissions with skepticism.

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