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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 5:11:23 AM   
artelahe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pineapplesub

Insecurity. I know it's a big one for me sometimes, and a big one for everyone from time to time in your life. I know that i used to be DEADSET against poly. While i'm not in a poly relationship now, i'm more open to the possibility. I know that my line of thought used to be "Well, goodness... If i'm not enough to fulfill Your needs... Why do You want me in the first place?" Now i know that is not necessarily the case... But i wanted to point that out, as i did not notice anyone else saying it. :)

~val


LOL, pineapplesub, you beat me to it!

(in reply to pineapplesub)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 5:34:08 AM   
lovingmaster45


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blackwolf99, I think it is your profile. It indicates something entirely different than what you are stating in your posts. EVERY sub/woman/person/child/animal I have ever trained is looking for FIRST...consistency. Hell I have even been able to train a damn cat.

So start out with that.

Re-do your profile to state that you are looking for poly. Give your experiences with it. Tell how you run/have run your house.

Don't put up the typical bdsm bullshit and then spring poly on someone. You will save them and yourself a lot of grief.

_____________________________

Master Jerry


(in reply to blackwolf99)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 6:06:00 AM   
artelahe


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I have a penny rolling around up here that is anxious to get out....

I do think that in some cases people who are insecure and might benefit from poly (being loved by more than one), believe they are unworthy of love by even one individual. To increase the number from one makes the ability to be loved exponentially more impossible.

I am not now, nor will I ever be, dominant. I see everything in shades of gray. I once worked for a very, very black and white, yes or no, boss. It was confusing, frustrating and suddenly freeing.

I don't think people hear 'you will be welcomed and loved by family'. I don't think people hear 'you'll belong to us, and we, to you'.

I do think people do hear 'orgy', 'more than one partner at a time'. I think the mindest is "if I'm not good enough to be 'first' with you, what's wrong wth me?" (or wrong with you???).

Deep end kink is not the common flavor for most people. Why should Poly be any different? You're going to have a very small pool to choose from. You might want to think about some sort of "PolyMeNow.com" service.

Ok, ramble time....

I think some men (every man I have ever met) believes women are natually bi and that all women need, if they are not currently bi, is the right situation or submission, to lead them or drag them into being bi (I identify as not-anti-bi, meaning I am not actively bi, I do not discount the possibility of being open to opportunies, but I have yet to find a woman that makes me swollen or drymouthed). I think the reason some men (every man I have ever met) believes all women are naturally bi and either repressed or in denial about it is...they want to see two women together, and/or, they want two (or more) women to play with at the same time and believe that if women were only open-minded enough and uninhibited enough in their sexual expression of self, they would realize this for themselves. After all, it is only natural, right.

It has always been curious to me, that when I say I find two men together unbelievably erotic (I mean think of all the testosterone, the sweat, the grunts, the tenderness, the forcefullness, the openness of one for the other--I could get explicit here, but will save any males reading this from too much retinal trauma. My god, male-male almost brings me to my knees). And yet, amazingly enough, some men (every man I have eer met) has indicated in one way or another that "THAT'S just not right! That's unnatural!. That's disgustinnnnnng!" LOL. I never press the issue, but you see how each of us has our own feeling for what is 'natural' and easy to accept?

Poly is an opportunity, just as the two examples above are. Poly, like kink, slogs through brow deep mire, to be acknowledged as 'not sick', not predatory, not immoral. What woman wouldn't be flattered by two men being in love with her, especially if individually each was attractive to her senses and needs. Or man flatter by two or more women. Or more than a triad. I've never had a poly relationship (other than having more than one dog at a time). I don't profess to understand how they work other than to accept a more open concept of family. I don't understand, necessarily, how they are different from the communes of the 60's and early 70's, just smaller in scale.

Sometimes the spark in the individual being offered the poly hasn't been lit yet. Maybe it is all in presentation. Plus, you are facing the potential dragons of: societal norms, immorality, insecurity, overwhelming closed mindedness, human kind's inability to deviate. LOL, yep, I actually said that. Did you think we were raised to be tolerant? Remember our struggle to be ourselves (well, maybe not some of you alpha dominants), remember TABOO? No, not the perfume.

I don't think you can create a slave if the being isn't already hardwired to be a slave under all the layers of garbage he or she has picked up from the cradle. I don't think you can create a dominant. They are born. And I don't think you can create a yearning or desire for poly unless the predeliction is inherent, even if recessive in any given individual.

How do you find out if an individual has the capacity? That's probably a separate thread.

If you read this far, thank you.


(in reply to artelahe)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 6:56:43 AM   
imtempting


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Frankly, I haven't noticed this. Most people, sub or vanilla, are not wired for poly, and it stands to reason that they aren't going to be interested in a poly relationship. (That's a good thing, because they wouldn't do very well in a poly relationship anyway.) But there are people who ARE wired for poly, and many of them are subs. They're out there.



Like Lam said they are out there you just have to look.

I dont want poly. Casual sex does nothing for me. I can get casual sex at the moment and I dont as I think its boring. Most people think poly in bdsm is threesomes which is what ive found most Doms think or want when going into a poly relationship. Alot of submissives want stable relationships not one night stands so to speak.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 8:08:23 AM   
ShiftedJewel


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quote:

I dont want poly. Casual sex does nothing for me. I can get casual sex at the moment and I dont as I think its boring. Most people think poly in bdsm is threesomes which is what ive found most Doms think or want when going into a poly relationship. Alot of submissives want stable relationships not one night stands so to speak.


I'm not sure where casual sex has anything to do with poly? As far as threesomes (or more) are concerned... granted that is a possibility... but not a given. For the most part, at least in my experience, poly households are not looking for one night stands either.. the want the stable relationship just as much as mono couples do. The only difference between poly and mono is that there are simply more people involved. We have the same goals (long term relationships, loving family life, intimate relationships.. all that and more), we have the same desires and stability is just as important to us.

This is where educating people about the poly lifestyle is so important... yes, I realize that to some it reminds them of the old hippie communes (only on a smaller scale), but if you take that scale down even smaller... a mono relationship is the same thing... it is people living together that love one another and share their lives with each other in a committed long term relationship.

Being poly does not equate to being "easy", sleeping around, or being bi-sexual (My husband/co-dominant is straight as an arrow) anymore then being mono does. Granted, there are countless poly homes that live by different standards (more power to them), but is there anyone that can say that the same thing doesn't hold true in the mono world? I know many mono couples that have an "open" relationship, some that are swingers and of course there are the "cheaters" in the world as well. Just because poly families share a bond with more then just one other person doesn't make them vastly different.

Jewel


_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to imtempting)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 6:51:32 PM   
blackwolf99


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A valid point, and I will look at revamping my profile

good advice from the man in a kilt. No that was NOT a dis. I am scotts/irish and have been known to wear the kilt myself (regimented of course).

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 7:03:45 PM   
blackwolf99


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quote:

Being poly does not equate to being "easy", sleeping around, or being bi-sexual (My husband/co-dominant is straight as an arrow) anymore then being mono does. Granted, there are countless poly homes that live by different standards (more power to them), but is there anyone that can say that the same thing doesn't hold true in the mono world?


Ah! exactly my point! As lovingmaster45 pointed out I should be listing that in my profile. I just need to come up with a way of wording it so that the assumptions what poly means does not close me into a little box, but opens others to the vast possiblities of what being poly is to me.

Just out of curiosity how many here have read :

The Ethical Slut:
A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities
by Dossie Easton and Catherine A. Liszt

Highly recommmended for anyone in a poly relation

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/24/2005 7:28:11 PM   
stormsfate


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Read it...liked parts of it...agreed with parts of it and disregarded the rest



f

(in reply to blackwolf99)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/25/2005 12:39:53 AM   
MasterJandbobcat


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Well Put Jewel, this girl could not agree more! Hello im Faith and am so glad I found this board and look forward to visiting and participating more here.

(in reply to artelahe)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/25/2005 9:38:39 AM   
MsPurrmeow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackwolf99
Just out of curiosity how many here have read :
The Ethical Slut:


Read it, and then gave it away. It was more focused on the "f**k-em-all" (my husbands terminology) version of poly. Very much into swingers and 'sex-on-the-side' type of relationships rather than a closed poly family, or even long-term live-in relationships. I realize that's not everyone's goal, but it's mine, so the book wasn't worth much to me.

I do not feel like Ethical Slut is a good promotion for the broad world of polyamory and all of it's possibilities. I'm glad you enjoyed it, though.

Purr


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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/25/2005 10:08:42 AM   
stormsfate


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That was what I didn't like about it, Purr. It didn't seem geared towards close knit families, and I was left questioning how strong the commitments were that they spoke of. (Commitment is a very important aspect to me). I do realize that other people view poly realtionships from a different perspective, in which case this book would probably be a big hit with them.

f



(in reply to MsPurrmeow)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 7:20:31 AM   
kitty333


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In response to blackwolf99 post on 7/23... Well said! We are all individuals which means we all have our own truths that are based on how we perceive things. I am not new to alterentive lifestyles and have watched while so many try to define my life according to their truth. Doesn't work for me..

For what it's worth, here's my truth: When I am single I am less inclined to be non-primary in a poly relationship, when I am involved with someone who ultimately satiates the needs of a primary partner, then I'm more open to become engaged in a poly relationship. You mentioned that in your post that you consider all your 'play partner's' as if they were equal. Do they all sleep with you at night? Are you there next to them when they first realize consciousness in the morning? *just curious here* If you live with one and do not live with the others, then all are not equal. I have been confronted by many men who are interested in what I call dating me. They have wives or primary partners but want to engage in a relationship with me too. When I ask the dynamic.. it's basically me entertaining them when their needs arise for variety. It's not equal.. any of the ones who live outside your home will likely not feel equal by any means.

I am not sure if there is a place to socialize with more poly hearted folks but more than likely, no always of course, but most of the time single women are going to be looking for monogamy first.. *shrugs* I'm curious about the openess and honesty of polyamory but know my heart isn't in the right place just yet.


Good luck to you.

(in reply to blackwolf99)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 9:02:08 AM   
MsPurrmeow


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(Excellent post Kitty.)

It's interesting that few people will bring up the Primary-secondary-tertiary like this. I wondered about the use of the word "equal" when they define someone as a "play partner". Few people can wrap their heads around the idea of a home without a typical hierarchy. It is very possible. AND it is possible even with D/s roles.

I believe in a "Multiple Primary" system. If a person lives in and is involved in the family (with a commitment on both sides) then, of course, they would have an equal vote and responsibility for the family decisions regarding finances, health issues and the like. I firmly believe that a strong personality can act as an equal and still be a submissive or slave. It is what clarifies the difference between "submissive" and "passive" for me. It is also possible for a Dominant/Master to make decisions for the best of the family group and not only for his/her pleasure. That's reality.

On the other hand, I do have "friends" with whom I also "play." They are not secondaries, or even poly relationship (other than the fact that I care for them.) If/when they commit to being a permanent and close part of my life, then they have potential to become as an equal partner.


Maybe the problem here is that ego encourages people to use the term "poly relationship" when what the want/need is friends to play with?

And is it also ego that makes people believe that there MUST be a strict hierarchy with one person "to Rule Them All." Is it that hard to understand that strong D/s can exist in a family situation where all have an equal contribution of thoughts?

I am curious.

(in reply to kitty333)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 9:58:20 AM   
Sabella


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That would be my biggest hurdle too Val, don't feel alone LOL.

I've been intrigued by the poly relationships, sounds WONDERFUL! also sounds impossible unless everyone involved was 100% jealousy-free :( Two or 3 men in my life, HEAVEN! I'd be like my cat, just roll me in catnip and pet me *wiggling legs in the air* but other WOMEN!? Mmmm... My flawed nature is all too well known to me, so it wouldn't work. I'm too jealous and insecure and I know it.

It's a lovely fantasy tho

EDIT: Artelahe I read the whole post, thank you! More things to ponder - great discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!



< Message edited by Sabella -- 7/27/2005 10:05:33 AM >


_____________________________

“The giant Grof was hit in one eye by a stone,
and that eye turned inward so that it looked into his mind and he died of what he saw there.”
From The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, by Patricia A. McKillip

(in reply to pineapplesub)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 10:29:25 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabella

That would be my biggest hurdle too Val, don't feel alone LOL.

I've been intrigued by the poly relationships, sounds WONDERFUL! also sounds impossible unless everyone involved was 100% jealousy-free :( Two or 3 men in my life, HEAVEN! I'd be like my cat, just roll me in catnip and pet me *wiggling legs in the air* but other WOMEN!? Mmmm... My flawed nature is all too well known to me, so it wouldn't work. I'm too jealous and insecure and I know it.

It's a lovely fantasy tho

EDIT: Artelahe I read the whole post, thank you! More things to ponder - great discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!




I've said many times, polyamory isn't about having some freedom from emotional issues...it simply requires understanding and being able to work WITH and THROUGH those emotional issues.

Monogamous relationships have to do this as well, they just don't tend to have it as much of an "in your face" issue.

(in reply to Sabella)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 10:56:34 AM   
blackwolf99


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quote:

You mentioned that in your post that you consider all your 'play partner's' as if they were equal. Do they all sleep with you at night? Are you there next to them when they first realize consciousness in the morning? *just curious here* If you live with one and do not live with the others, then all are not equal. I have been confronted by many men who are interested in what I call dating me. They have wives or primary partners but want to engage in a relationship with me too. When I ask the dynamic.. it's basically me entertaining them when their needs arise for variety. It's not equal.. any of the ones who live outside your home will likely not feel equal by any means


Why does everyone think that a person has to live with you to be poly or treated equally?


In answer to your question I do live with one partner, and I do have others that live in there own homes - by their own choice. The reasons for this are many, one has a child that she is not out to, another has a a loving relation with a vanilla man who is not in to kink( he is aware of our relations and is ok with it even comes to watch sometimes). Some relationships are sexual some are not (in the tradition sense of intercourse, oral sex, ect). None of them are treated casually. Where I say they are equal is that noone is treated or made feel 'less than'. We have termed ourselves as being a tribe. Some live with each other some do not, some play (at some level) with others of the tribe, some do not. Some are subs, some are Doms (thats right I am not the only Dom in this tribe, whose feelings and needs are also a concideration) Noones needs or feelings are left out or discounted. The tribe looks out for every member of the tribe and acts for the good of the whole, not the individual. We come together to satisfy mutual needs and desires. My partners needs are as importiant to me as my own. The respect of the tribe as a whole is as importaint to me as is the respect of its individuals. If they all wanted to live with me (although that sounds very hippie communish), that would be fine. If they can not that is fine too.
By telling them 'sorry but your needs to live seperate from me makes you undesirable to me,' sounds more like an unfair, unequal, and close minded statement to me. Not taking in to concideration what my partners need to enjoy the relationship, to me, is the sign of a bad Dom. Making sacrifces for their emotional and physical wellbeing, is a more desirable trait.

I am sorry that it seems so many of you have run into selfish people that only concerned with themselves. Those indivduals are as frustrating to me as they are for all of you becase they give all that call themselves poly a bad name. Just as bad Doms, bad subs, and close minded people give us all (respectively) a bad name.

quote:

Read it, and then gave it away. It was more focused on the "f**k-em-all" (my husbands terminology) version of poly. Very much into swingers and 'sex-on-the-side' type of relationships rather than a closed poly family, or even long-term live-in relationships. I realize that's not everyone's goal, but it's mine, so the book wasn't worth much to me.

I do not feel like Ethical Slut is a good promotion for the broad world of polyamory and all of it's possibilities. I'm glad you enjoyed it, though.


I agree with you and your husband that it is geared more towards swingers lifestyle. It was the views of ethics and communication that can be applied to any type of relationship be it swinger poly, bdsm poly or whatever, that I was in favor of. Books are like salad bars, you can take what you like, use it, and leave the rest. I someone out there can reccommend to me the book that captures every possible asspect of poly relations, please let me know. I'd really love to read it. Even here I will read the posts and think a person makes a good point here, but that I disagree with what they say there. Just because I dont fully agree with everything they say doesnt mean they are totally wrong, or that I cant walk away with a little valuble insight.
Does it?

(in reply to kitty333)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 11:12:40 AM   
blackwolf99


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Joined: 3/15/2005
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quote:

I've been intrigued by the poly relationships, sounds WONDERFUL! also sounds impossible unless everyone involved was 100% jealousy-free :( Two or 3 men in my life, HEAVEN! I'd be like my cat, just roll me in catnip and pet me *wiggling legs in the air* but other WOMEN!? Mmmm... My flawed nature is all too well known to me, so it wouldn't work. I'm too jealous and insecure and I know it.

It's a lovely fantasy tho


jealousy is always a tough issue particularly at the start. And it even shows up in wierd ways.

One of our tribe members is a massage tharapist. He is a vanilla(kinky friendly) straight
man, who I (also straaight) have shared a threesome with my live in female sub. I was surprised that later in our relationship I found myself feeling jealous, not because they had they had sex with one another, but because she was getting longer massages than I was!

The point is that jealousies do occur, it how you deal with them that makes the difference.
Open communication and trust is the most imortant key to making a relation of any kind work be it poly or otherwise

(in reply to Sabella)
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RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 12:19:52 PM   
Sabella


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Joined: 7/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackwolf99

I was surprised that later in our relationship I found myself feeling jealous, not because they had they had sex with one another, but because she was getting longer massages than I was!

The point is that jealousies do occur, it how you deal with them that makes the difference.
Open communication and trust is the most imortant key to making a relation of any kind work be it poly or otherwise

LOLOLOL! You should have had longer massages tho because you two WEREN'T having sex! :)
Seriously tho you are so right about the communication and trust. It's something my DH & I still work on and we've been together 13 years. Take nothing for granted.

_____________________________

“The giant Grof was hit in one eye by a stone,
and that eye turned inward so that it looked into his mind and he died of what he saw there.”
From The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, by Patricia A. McKillip

(in reply to blackwolf99)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 7/27/2005 1:31:28 PM   
DarkVoyeur


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Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Wet Coast Canuckland
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Wow, some good posts here. Let me add my $0.02

I live and enjoy a poly lifestyle. I have been involved in several triads, and larger families. I also play, have sex, and even relationships outside of the home. The key to all of this (for me) has been honesty and communication. Having said that, there are times when I have struggled to have my needs met. I too (at times) have found it difficult to find women, who are at all interested in my lifestyle. I have usually discovered though, that those times are brought about by my failure at communication. I am not dissing here, this has been MY experience.

(in reply to Sabella)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why subs run when they hear the word poly - 8/4/2005 2:21:22 PM   
CountV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: artelahe

I think some men (every man I have ever met) believes women are natually bi and that all women need, if they are not currently bi



(First post - I will properly introduce myself presently)

Just for the record, I have never thought this - perhaps because watching two girls get it on is about #356 on my List of Turn-ons. It's nice, but there are 355 other things to try (or repeat) before we get to that point.

Perhaps it is because I myself am so boringly straight (not for lack of trying to expand my horizons) that I can sympathize.

My slave is straight, and I have no desire to turn her bi. Now, under certain circumstances, I can imagine making her interact sexually with another woman in certain - probably limited - ways, but I don't delude myself into thinking she will ever enjoy it.

Yet, we're looking for another girl for our family. Not actively hunting about all the damned time, but keeping that door open, in case a suitable person shows up. It's not enough of a need for us to be desperate about it.

But I think the points made about low self-esteem and "why am I not enough for you, that you need someone else?" make good sense, and probably cover a majority of those who are squicked by the thought of some sort of poly arrangement.

(in reply to artelahe)
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