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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 1:49:37 PM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amiciaN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Thank you Amicia. This is helpful.

May I ask why you must do this until punishment has been administered? Could he not simply tell you it is time to accept what was done and move on, or divert that energy towards something more constructive?

This isn't a criticism. To understand the dynamic I need to understand such things.

It comes from growing up with expectations of perfection, Bob (which is probably why my posts have been passionate, though calling them histrionic is likely to be hyperbole). Nothing less than 100% on school work was good enough. If I had to clean the bathroom, the floor behind the toilet was checked with a white piece of tissue and the shower tiles checked with a black glove or rag for water scale deposits. When I was 8 years old, I washed every dish in the house for leaving one spot on the side of a serving bowl and one spot under the handle of a skillet. It took me about 8 hours; until past 2:00 am to finish on a school night. Perfect was the only acceptable standard and I failed over and over and over again. Nothing I did was ever good enough; I wasn't ever good enough. I internalized that completely. I accepted an emotionally abusive relationship for 20 years because I was convinced I deserved all the contempt and criticism heaped on my head. Even attempts at building my self esteem were always couched in terms of how I wasn't living up to my potential, I could 'do better'. My Master NChaka has never done that to me; not once! He accepts me and loves me for who I am, not who I was or who I may become.

In two years, my Master has only punished me a handful of times. He does not like to punish me at all. In every case, it was because talking about it was not resolving things. The punishment was a way to end the conflict. It is always done with love.

I'm afraid I do not see answers to my questions.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to amiciaN)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 1:53:04 PM

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Nor will you ever come to an understanding, you will wear this shit out entirely. This is just being obtuse, for some unknown cause.

Did you memorize the schematic for your tv and perfectly understand it so you could watch it? If not why not? I need to understand how this dynamic is different from that one. So far, no answers, only questions.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 1:55:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I find it interesting Bob that your main argument against punishment is that it's designed to instill fear in a submissive.

I have a fear of abandonment. It's twenty thousand times stronger than any fear of being spanked or being hit.

From what you've said in the thread your take on relationships is "be perfect or be abandoned"

Xoxi, those who have followed this thread know that's not what I am saying at all.

No Bob, that is exactly what it sounds like you are saying. Disobedience means the relationship is over. Only in a post a few pages back did you finally allude to the fact that you don't consider the day-to-day things as 'orders which require absolute obedience'. They are requests or suggestions, not orders, so failure to comply isn't disobedience. To many subs, including myself, most requests from NChaka I see as an 'order' and failure to comply is disobedience. You are only talking about 'deal-breakers' like infidelity or blatant lying, not being late getting dinner on the table or being mistaken regarding a fact. Perhaps that is also key in your lack of understanding of another dynamic.

_____________________________

NChaka's amicia

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 1:56:37 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

I have read this entire thread - and survived it too!

What then are you saying, with quotes like these?

quote:

So if she signals that she is quitting the relationship through deliberate disobedience I am "abusive" if I respect her right to make that decision?

quote:

That is not what I've said.

What I said was that if she is willing I will talk with her about her decision. If there was some error in communication then it is quickly discovered, addressed, and we move on together.

But I can only recall one instance of that, with my wife early in our relationship.

In the other cases of deliberate diobedience, it was indeed intended to end the relationship.

For me, I see the act of disobedience to be the point where the relationship ended. That was where the trust was betrayed and the promise broken. Both the trust and the promise are essential to our M/s relationship.

My refusal to act as master after that is my recognition of her right to quit.

It is not a bluff. It is not a tactic. It is the end.

If it is to continue, it will be at her request, and only providing she can convince me this won't happen again. (one strike and you're out??) And I am very reluctant to believe that if it happened once, it won't happen again. But thus far, that situation hasn't arisen and I hope it never does.

quote:

In your relationship, disobedience is forgivable after you've been punished, so the relationship continues. So the value of obedience is diminished, because it isn't essential to keep your relationship going.

My past slaves would not have seen obedience in that light. To them, it would have been far more important because the relationship depended upon it.

With mine, they would have remembered to turn out the light.

(you would BREAK UP with a girl for not turning off a LIGHT????)

quote:

And upon what assumptions are these generalizations based?

It seems you are also arguing that a slave has every right to go on strike (disobey) while retaining the right to expect her master to keep her while she is on strike.

I know topping from the bottom has its advocates, but I'm not one of them.

A slave who asks me to be her master knows what she is asking for. What is the point of saying I expect obedience if I'm going to repeatedly tolerate disobedience? I might as well say "do whatever you wish, I don't care". (hint: that's why some people use PUNISHMENT so they don't TOLERATE it but don't have to END the RELATIONSHIP)

Her obedience is her trust manifest. Her disobedience is a direct assault against her own trustworthiness. She knows this before she ever commits disobedience. If she holds her own promises to be of so little worth as to ignore them, why should I trust her, and in not trusting her, why would I want to be with her?

If my trust is of so little meaning to her that she would disobey me, why should I believe the requisite trust, love and respect exists to sustain the relationship?

I have my responsibilities which I accepted when I accepted her as my slave. Betray those responsibilities and I am the one who ends the relationship.

< Message edited by xoxi -- 10/1/2007 1:59:08 PM >

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:02:23 PM

Posts: 1335
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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

I don't assume anyone is suffering from low self-esteem. I assume everyone is a responsible, mature, intelligent adult.

It's up to them to prove me wrong

You can't imagine changing your submissive, clearly.

Incorrect. I can and have helped my sub/slaves to grow.

I just won't do it without their cooperation.

quote:

That's fine and dandy. Some submissives actively desire to be changed by their dominants. For them, this gives a sense of their submission; indeed, if there were no expectations (with teeth to enforce them) why bother with expectations at all?

If I have to "enforce" my will, they are not serving me for the right reasons.

In my M/s there are no greater incentives than love, respect, trust.

No one holds back. No one shirks. We give 100% to our family unit.

quote:

You really missed on the work example. For my girls, the things they do for me are work. It's hard to serve me; I know it, they know it. To please me isn't a given, it's a challenge. A bleary eyed charlotte had to fetch coffee after about four hours of sleep this morning; by the time it was in my hands, she had a huge smile on her face. Getting her out of bed, though, required a few whacks on the behind. This didn't make her a weak, stupid, lazy, woman with poor self-esteem; it made her a slave who thrives on having rules and having those rules enforced. (I'll have her elaborate when she's off work tonight.) Your approach would be "well, I'd like her to make me coffee, but if she doesn't that's ok too; she's only supposed to do the things she feels motivated to do." A few days of that with Tigrita, and you'd probably be the one making her coffee.

I neither had to issue an order nor strike my wife to get a cup of tea in the morning. Either it arrived without me asking or it arrived within three minutes of me mentioning it.

quote:

Strong willed women sometimes desire much stronger willed men (use whatever gender you think necessary here.) Thus, where you would find an obstinant and unco-operative person, I see a hungry willing submissive. Naturally, you're left scratching your head and wondering 'why.'

Actually, I have a theory about who ends up with the high-maintenance slaves and who ends up with the low-maintenance ones.

But it would probably be prudent for me to keep that to myself.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 10/1/2007 2:03:22 PM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:09:38 PM

Posts: 1335
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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

But if I understand correctly, you do find punishment more effective in curbing your mistakes.

Mistakes like selfishness?

With Sir yes. Nothing would have worked with my parents. I was a different person back then.
I would not personally class the mistakes i have made with Sir as selfsih ones.

Does this mean you curbed your selfishness before meeting Sir?

No, i'm still selfish.
I'm not selfish with Sir though. There is no place for it in our relationship.

I can think of no further questions to ask at this time.

Thank you for the answers you've provided.

More for me to think about.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:13:19 PM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

your reasoning is cloudy....

first, you may feel whatever you feel about it.......

but the couching of the arguments in the line you have is not the codex on how it is thought of by all.

Self-esteem improves through accomplishment.
This may be true in and of itself.

Punishment is payment exacted for failure.
This may be true in and of itself.

Where's the connection?
This is not aught to do with either of the above statements, except as you see the world.

I would say there is no connection to those two statements either.

I'd say there is a connection: punishment erodes self-esteem.

Punishment treats mistakes in a cynical way, whereas correction addresses mistakes in an optimistic way.

Punishment paradigm seems to dictate that the sub/slave must suffer in addition to any and all suffering she's already experiencing as a direct result of the mistake.

Sort of like: "your mistake broke your arm, and so I am going to break the other one to make you pay for your mistake"

What would the punishment be if the sub mistakenly burned down the house?

Punishment comes across as gratuitous violence: you make a mistake (you will always make mistakes) get punished (you will always get punished).

Where is the incentive to stop making mistakes?

In a way, I can see what you're driving at. I really would find it a hard path if I was punished continually for things that I simply didn't mean to do. I mean well, I don't like pissing M off and it's obvious that this is so. It's also obvious when I KNOW that I have done something very wrong; with aforethought, if you like.

I'm punished as a consequence for a wrong doing knowingly done.

Consider.........If you deliberately break the speed limit, you get a ticket. If you lose concentration by day-dreaming or distraction and break the speed limit, you still get a ticket. That's how it works for some people's realtionships.

agirl

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:15:59 PM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amiciaN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I find it interesting Bob that your main argument against punishment is that it's designed to instill fear in a submissive.

I have a fear of abandonment. It's twenty thousand times stronger than any fear of being spanked or being hit.

From what you've said in the thread your take on relationships is "be perfect or be abandoned"

Xoxi, those who have followed this thread know that's not what I am saying at all.

No Bob, that is exactly what it sounds like you are saying. Disobedience means the relationship is over. Only in a post a few pages back did you finally allude to the fact that you don't consider the day-to-day things as 'orders which require absolute obedience'. They are requests or suggestions, not orders, so failure to comply isn't disobedience. To many subs, including myself, most requests from NChaka I see as an 'order' and failure to comply is disobedience. You are only talking about 'deal-breakers' like infidelity or blatant lying, not being late getting dinner on the table or being mistaken regarding a fact. Perhaps that is also key in your lack of understanding of another dynamic.

Amicia, I've explained my M/s more than once.

I am not responsible for the labels foisted upon me by those eager to judge. They could have asked questions but instead assumed only a perfect person would be acceptable to me.

I do not think myself ignorant of the reason why such assumptions were insisted upon. I just know they are wrong.

Just as your attempt at caricature is wrong.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to amiciaN)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:23:50 PM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I have read this entire thread - and survived it too!

What then are you saying, with quotes like these?

I meant exactly what I said in the context of the disucssion as it existed at the time of the quote.

I also meant exactly what I said for all the quotes not included in your list.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:34:36 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Well at least we got that cleared up then

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:35:46 PM

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Incorrect. I can and have helped my sub/slaves to grow.

I just won't do it without their cooperation.

My slave's collar is her cooperation. In fact, it regularly serves as a physical means to ensure that cooperation (and makes her wet as October to boot.) My submissive, on the other hand, doesn't relish the discipline dynamic so we really don't make use of it. She also prefers to do what I ask, out of love; but only to a man she feels is strong enough to draw it from her (vice simply laying back and receiving it.)

If I have to "enforce" my will, they are not serving me for the right reasons.

In my M/s there are no greater incentives than love, respect, trust.

No one holds back. No one shirks. We give 100% to our family unit.

So?

I'll save the 'one true way' chastisement; you've heard it far more brutally from people better than I.

I neither had to issue an order nor strike my wife to get a cup of tea in the morning. Either it arrived without me asking or it arrived within three minutes of me mentioning it.

If only everyone was blessed with such a lovely work ethic.

Now, had your tea not appeared one morning, would you have mentioned it to her? Complained? Ignored it? Released her? What happened, when you were disobeyed?

Actually, I have a theory about who ends up with the high-maintenance slaves and who ends up with the low-maintenance ones.

But it would probably be prudent for me to keep that to myself.

I have a few theories too.

To cut to the chase, I like swatting my girl and she enjoys being swatted. It's 'play' for us. It gets her blood pumping and her heart racing first thing, and ensure she's breathless, excited, and feels very owned first thing in the morning. I don't call that 'high maintainence,' I call it a great way to start the day. Again, she'll have to speak for herself on that one.

I suppose this goes a long way towards something you refuse to grasp; that we enjoy this dynamic. It puts a smile on our faces, and makes us feel good.

I think that concept is probably about as alien to you, as lesbianism.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:43:34 PM

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It's interesting that an advocate of the M/s death penalty- abandonment- the most severe punishment there is in the M/s arsenal- professes not to understand the uses of punishment. Are we having our legs pulled here?

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:45:57 PM

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Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
To cut to the chase, I like swatting my girl and she enjoys being swatted. It's 'play' for us. It gets her blood pumping and her heart racing first thing, and ensure she's breathless, excited, and feels very owned first thing in the morning. I don't call that 'high maintainence,' I call it a great way to start the day.
Stephan

This is such a delightful description that I wanted it to stay up on the scrolly thing for a moment

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 2:47:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mountainpet

It's interesting that an advocate of the M/s death penalty- abandonment- the most severe punishment there is in the M/s arsenal- professes not to understand the uses of punishment. Are we having our legs pulled here?

I liked this too but for a totally different reason.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to mountainpet)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 3:14:28 PM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Incorrect. I can and have helped my sub/slaves to grow.

I just won't do it without their cooperation.

My slave's collar is her cooperation. In fact, it regularly serves as a physical means to ensure that cooperation (and makes her wet as October to boot.) My submissive, on the other hand, doesn't relish the discipline dynamic so we really don't make use of it. She also prefers to do what I ask, out of love; but only to a man she feels is strong enough to draw it from her (vice simply laying back and receiving it.)

lol

By all means, Stephan, stroke your ego to your heart's content.

Just be sure to wash your hands when you're done.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 3:17:33 PM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mountainpet

It's interesting that an advocate of the M/s death penalty- abandonment- the most severe punishment there is in the M/s arsenal- professes not to understand the uses of punishment. Are we having our legs pulled here?

A slave quitting is not "abandonment"

A master respecting the right of a slave to quit is not "punishment".

But with all of that kind of talk amongst the punishment advocates, it does make me wonder just how difficult is it for a sub/slave to quit such a relationship.

You all seem willing to treat it as something else and beat her into staying, despite her desire to leave.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to mountainpet)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 3:31:50 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

What are the ethical/moral foundations for the punishment paradigm?

Depends on the variant of the paradigm, the people involved, the reference ethics, etc.

Care to be more specific if you want a thesis on this?

quote:

"I don't like what your doing so I'll beat you for it" ?

That's not exactly the common version of the punishment paradigm.
It sounds more like partially internalized sadism instead.
Some "subs" use it as a way to initiate play.

For me, I prefer to keep my sadism sadistic, my corrections productive.
And never the two shall meet in intent or motive, for me.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 3:35:18 PM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: mountainpet

It's interesting that an advocate of the M/s death penalty- abandonment- the most severe punishment there is in the M/s arsenal- professes not to understand the uses of punishment. Are we having our legs pulled here?

A slave quitting is not "abandonment"

A master respecting the right of a slave to quit is not "punishment".

But with all of that kind of talk amongst the punishment advocates, it does make me wonder just how difficult is it for a sub/slave to quit such a relationship.

You all seem willing to treat it as something else and beat her into staying, despite her desire to leave.

This just goes to prove that you have not read or understood one word of what has been said here. Never have I see such an example of narrow minded one true wayism.

Not one submissive here has said they have a desire to leave a relationship where punishment is part of the dynamic but are stopped from doing so because of a beating.

Many submissives have told you that they are happy with the punishment dynamic. It is what works for them in their relationship. Why can you not just accept. It does not suit you just as your version of M/s does not suit any of us.

You do not like to punish (and you are so narrow minded that the only punishment in your mind is beating). we get that. So what. Others do.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 4:03:45 PM

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This has got to be the most amusing thread I've read in a long while.

(in reply to susie)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 4:12:10 PM

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Really? Because it is a repeat of several others starring Bob, his homemade definitions, his projection, and his magical ability to read blocked posters.....

(in reply to Aileen68)

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