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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 8:48:51 AM

amiciaN

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Merc--

Thank you for explaing this so eloquently.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 8:48:51 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocRudy

Agreed that I can't hit everyone just right with a generalization. There will always be exceptions.

I will, however, still have to believe that the two concepts go hand-in-hand in general (i.e. punishment of children and punishment of your sub/slave). What I mean is, my hypothesis is that people will usually agree with both or neither, but not often only one.

-DR

I still disagree and I don't believe I am in a minority - been in this discussion toooooo many times with others who feel the same - ach but it's good for a discussion!
One is consensual and one isn't. If a s-type is in a relationship and stays in one where punishment is agreed upon, then it is not against her/his will therefore is not abusive. The self consent makes a huge difference IMO. Abuse is the misuse of something... and whilst punishment can be abused, in itself is not abusive persay.

Peace
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/28/2007 8:49:33 AM >

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 9:05:38 AM

DocRudy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I still disagree and I don't believe I am in a minority - been in this discussion toooooo many times with others who feel the same - ach but it's good for a discussion!
One is consensual and one isn't. If a s-type is in a relationship and stays in one where punishment is agreed upon, then it is not against her/his will therefore is not abusive. The self consent makes a huge difference IMO. Abuse is the misuse of something... and whilst punishment can be abused, in itself is not abusive persay.

Peace
the.dark.

Makes for great discussion indeed thedark.

I consider myself a relatively simple man, who tries when possible to break things down to their basest reasons. in this particular case I see punishment as the consequence of bad behavior, misbehavior, whatever.

In other words, a poor behavior can result in 3 things: punishment action, non-punishment action, or lack of any action. The last two are different in intent, but similar enough for government work in result. The first is, in my opinion, necessary to minimize the chances of a repeat of the bad behavior. Punishment is valuable in learning what to do or not to do, and what's more, to imprint in the mind what to do or not to do more clearly.

As an example, if you screw up at work, what is more effective at correcting your failure? A politely worded memo basically saying, "You should have done this instead," or an actual negative writeup that potentially affects your review? In my opinion, it is the latter.

Similarly, if your child misbehaves, what will be more effective at correcting their behavior? Telling them that they "should have done [insert action]" while they continue to play video games or actually putting them in timeout, taking away privileges, spanking, etc.? In my experience, the latter is more effective.

Note, neither consent to the relationship nor a subject's mental capacity have anything to do with the effectiveness of negative reinforcement.

-DR

P.S. This is wholly a different issue than what type of punishment to use. Some are effective, some aren't, some are clearly abusive, as well, at which point they are (in my opinion) no longer merely punishment.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 9:14:55 AM

missturbation

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In other words, a poor behavior can result in 3 things: punishment action, non-punishment action, or lack of any action.

Theres no consistency here though. An action is either punishable or its not. I wouldn't want to be able to say something one day and then the next be punished for it.
Poor behaviour should result in one thing - punishment (whatever that is for you in your own relationship). In my opinion

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 9:21:18 AM

DocRudy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

In other words, a poor behavior can result in 3 things: punishment action, non-punishment action, or lack of any action.

Theres no consistency here though. An action is either punishable or its not. I wouldn't want to be able to say something one day and then the next be punished for it.
Poor behaviour should result in one thing - punishment (whatever that is for you in your own relationship). In my opinion

Oh of course, I didn't mean to say that the consequences of a misbehavior should be a total mystery to your protege, haha. Consistency is key in training someone, whether it be at home, at work, or in the bedroom. They should not wonder whether you will punish them or do nothing at all.

I merely meant that those are the possible routes that can be taken, much in the same way that when it's dark in the house, the light switches can be on or off, yet perhaps you set a trend for doing one of these consistently. :P

-DR

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 9:29:24 AM

missturbation

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ohhhhhhhh my apologies
Can you tell that inconsistency is one of my pet peeves lol.

PS please dont look at me like that, you're making me go all twinky

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 9:33:23 AM

Alumbrado

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Who in their right mind would think of punishing UMs? That's what Skinner boxes are for....

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 9:34:54 AM

missturbation

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Not me shes been punished enough having me for a mum

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 10:11:09 AM

velvetears

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Why do you assume that punishment is something a sub/slave should or does fear? Dread punishment maybe but fear implies you expect something bad or harmful is going to happen to you. Fear implies there is no trust not to harm – both of which would be absent in any M/s dynamic i involved myself in. Where there is absolute trust there more than likely won’t be any fear. You stated: “And in choosing fear, how does this improve the sub/slave's self-esteem, confidence, love and devotion?” The question you asked assumes something – that the Master chooses to instill fear or the sub/slave accepts it with the implementation of physical punishment as an option. Just because something is unpleasant and something one wants to avoid doesn’t mean it is necessarily to be “feared”.

In my original answer to you “Not everything a dom does should have the goal of improving the subs self esteem and confidence, why would that always have to be the focus of everything the dom does??” i did use absolutes, i can rephrase the question saying – when a sub has caused displeasure, disobeyed, erred (or any other reason a Master may have to punish her) it is not up to the dom at that moment to put her self esteem and confidence in the forefront of his concerns. Why should there be a requirement to before or during punishment? i certainly would not expect a punishment to be a self esteem building experience. You stated in your last post to me:

quote:

Bobkgin

As I see it, a master who accepts responsibility for the well-being of his slave is accepting responsibility for the state of her self-esteem and confidence.

I think it is well-known that fear can be and has been used to damage the self-esteem and confidence of individuals since humanity began.

I think there is a sufficient number of cases of battered spouses that can testify to how effective this can be within intimate relationships.

If punishment is to act as a deterrent to stop undesirable behaviour, as part of an aversion therapy, then the punishment must be something the punished wishes to avoid.

The degree to which the punished wishes to avoid punishment is the degree to which she fears it: from very little to scared-as-hell.

i agree that a Master accepts responsibility for the well being of the slave – then i would ask you this, how is taking away your dominance when a slave has disobeyed you building her confidence or self esteem? i would think it would have quite the opposite effect in fact. i would feel a lot more confidence getting my ass beat over being dismissed because i made a mistake or disobeyed in a heart beat.

i bolded the words above in your statement “can be” – very crucial. Maybe some masters do use punishment as a guise to abuse their subs. That doesn’t mean it’s done across the board. Many loving, attentive, caring Masters DO punish.

How can you compare battered spouses to punished subs? Apples and oranges. i don’t see any comparison.

And another thought – fearing the punishment doesn’t mean you fear the Master administering it.

You say fear interferes with a slaves love and devotion to her Master. i don’t agree that’s the case with all slaves, in fact prop posted earlier and said it was a necessary part of her dynamic with her daddy.

You stated “I did not feel a need to make a public spectacle of the fact” What “fact” are you referencing? What you post is fact? i consider them opinions and i happen not to share them.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 9/28/2007 10:19:00 AM >

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 10:26:19 AM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Camille, I addressed most of this post earlier. But I do want to ask about the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Edit/Added:
I have reoriented 'my' thinking on this since I posted in the other punishment thread. I don't get punished for direct activities but I do get the crap spanked out of me when I get emotionally tangled up over stuff. Once I am a teary puddle the confusion inside is lessened and I feel utterly cleansed.

While I'd appreciate a better understanding of what you mean when you say you "get emotionally tangled up over stuff", I'm wondering if it is the pain of being spanked, or the message it conveys, that helps you clear some of the "confusion inside". Sort of like how we can get caught up in minutiae and then some really big event catches our attention and puts things in perspective for us?

Bob it is both the pain of being spanked and the message behind (hehe I made a funny. Behind... get it?

) the spanking. Say for example I've been having trouble remembering if I have taken my noon pain meds, something I 'do' have trouble with. We first discuss it & find out why I've been forgetting. The common reason for that particular example is being disorganised and distracted.
When he spanks me for that, it centers me. It makes me focus on things.
Once he is done the incident is over. There is no lingering emotion or guilt. It is a new beginning concerning that particular problem.

The first example I mentioned was getting tangled in emotions. If I've been keeping things inside and worrying at them then it makes me very unhappy. There are times when it builds bigger in my mind and it can be a bit overwhelming. Spanking sends me into sub-space and afterwards it feels like I have been able to throw away the emotion so that I can see it all with reason instead.

I hope I managed to clarify it a bit for you, I didn't really understand your question lol.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 11:37:52 AM

Bobkgin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocRudy

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you're the type of person that sees spanking a child on the behind as abuse... then you will see punishment in the BDSM context as abuse, as well.

Perhaps that is it in my case.

My son was never spanked, or struck in any way. There was always a better option available, under the most trying of circumstances.

quote:

There's always varying degrees of anything in life, however, I firmly believe that just because someone is made to feel pain, discomfort, embarassment, etc., it does not necessarily equate to abuse.

I agree.

quote:

A polite letter requesting corrective action is rarely cause for someone to actually correct their actions.

?

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 11:42:35 AM

missturbation

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My son was never spanked, or struck in any way. There was always a better option available, under the most trying of circumstances.
For you personally a better option was available.
Just as you see better options for punishment than physical.
But for ME physical is the better option.
Its as simple as that really.
I consent which makes it not abuse.
Easy !!

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 11:46:03 AM

Bobkgin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

okay...first i will say that i have not read the entire thread, so i'm sure others have already made the point that punishment needn't be physical, nor is it necessarily to be feared.

with that said, in my relationship with my Master, punishment is often physical (but never solely so), and is meant to be feared. you say why fear and not love...this question makes the assumption that the two cannot coexist, when indeed they can. there is a great unconditional love between the two of us, as well as a healthy fear from me to him because of his awesome power over me. punishment is not the only thing i fear or even the greatest fear, but it's a fear nonetheless. do i need this fear in order to be obedient or to be a good slave? absolutely not. but i do need it in order to respect him as a Master, and in order to maintain the proper (for us) slave mindset.

as far as what sorts of infractions lead to punishments...willfull disobedience is something i've never done and never would do, so i'd rather not even think about the kind of punishment such a thing would merit. but i am punished for mistakes (not every mistake, but say making the same mistake repeatedly), for improper speech or conduct, and for not trying my very best. usually, unless the cause of the infraction is obvious and superficial, we talk it out and he gives me guidance to avoid repeating the mistake in the future. this may take place before or after the physical punishment. the physical punishment serves multiple purposes: as a physical release for his own frustration or anger at my misbehavior...as a cleanser for my own guilt...and as incentive to avoid such consequences in the first place.

So would I be correct in saying that what you two are doing are using punishment as a method for creating the ideal psychological milieu for your relationship? Much like the Goreans might use it?

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 11:55:01 AM

Bobkgin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

My debate with Bob ...

... takes interesting twists and turns.

I would invite those interested to read the exchanges in the "Safe Punishment" thread, because Merc's synopsis is not to be relied upon.

Taking quotes out of context and attempting to use them to support an unsupportable position when the facts are known is called a "straw man", and I've wasted enough of my time on this one already.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 11:56:54 AM

Bobkgin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

Why would being physically punished alter a slaves devotion or love for her master?

Fear interferes with both.

this is not a universal truth, or anything close to it. from my own experiences i can say that the fear i have towards my Master has in no way hindered or interfered with the love and devotion i have for him...and in some ways has actually enhanced these elements.

Are you sure it is fear and not awe?

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/28/2007 12:18:03 PM >

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 11:58:16 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

... takes interesting twists and turns.

I would invite those interested to read the exchanges in the "Safe Punishment" thread, because Merc's synopsis is not to be relied upon.

Taking quotes out of context and attempting to use them to support an unsupportable position when the facts are known is called a "straw man", and I've wasted enough of my time on this one already.

I would encourage EVERYONE to read all the posts that you have made here ... including those who disagreed with you

In fact, I would strongly encourage it

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 12:08:36 PM

missturbation

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Why?
I have to admit i tend to skip past his posts now unless it is his thread as he only responds to those who he can pick apart. Those who show a thinking of their own and a view which opposes his but could be right for that person he ignores.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 12:15:25 PM

Bobkgin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Camille, I addressed most of this post earlier. But I do want to ask about the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Edit/Added:
I have reoriented 'my' thinking on this since I posted in the other punishment thread. I don't get punished for direct activities but I do get the crap spanked out of me when I get emotionally tangled up over stuff. Once I am a teary puddle the confusion inside is lessened and I feel utterly cleansed.

While I'd appreciate a better understanding of what you mean when you say you "get emotionally tangled up over stuff", I'm wondering if it is the pain of being spanked, or the message it conveys, that helps you clear some of the "confusion inside". Sort of like how we can get caught up in minutiae and then some really big event catches our attention and puts things in perspective for us?

Bob it is both the pain of being spanked and the message behind (hehe I made a funny. Behind... get it?) the spanking. Say for example I've been having trouble remembering if I have taken my noon pain meds, something I 'do' have trouble with. We first discuss it & find out why I've been forgetting. The common reason for that particular example is being disorganised and distracted.
When he spanks me for that, it centers me. It makes me focus on things.
Once he is done the incident is over. There is no lingering emotion or guilt. It is a new beginning concerning that particular problem.

The first example I mentioned was getting tangled in emotions. If I've been keeping things inside and worrying at them then it makes me very unhappy. There are times when it builds bigger in my mind and it can be a bit overwhelming. Spanking sends me into sub-space and afterwards it feels like I have been able to throw away the emotion so that I can see it all with reason instead.

I hope I managed to clarify it a bit for you, I didn't really understand your question lol.

Thank you Camille. You did quite well.

But I am still confused about something. You say the spanking helps you to focus, but that remembering to take your pain meds continues to be a problem for which you are spanked.

How is spanking you helping if you continue to forget?

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When all is said and done, what will you regret?

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For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 12:15:52 PM

IrishMist

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It was said in regards to what he posted about Mercnbeth's post. According to Bob, us 'dissenter's are the ones who keep intelligent discussions from forming here

/nods

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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 9/28/2007 12:19:26 PM

Bobkgin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

... takes interesting twists and turns.

I would invite those interested to read the exchanges in the "Safe Punishment" thread, because Merc's synopsis is not to be relied upon.

Taking quotes out of context and attempting to use them to support an unsupportable position when the facts are known is called a "straw man", and I've wasted enough of my time on this one already.

I would encourage EVERYONE to read all the posts that you have made here ... including those who disagreed with you

In fact, I would strongly encourage it