World War 2 Nostalgia

World War 2 Nostalgia (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> World War 2 Nostalgia (9/29/2007 4:04:34 PM)
Top Secret Memorandum and thats politics :) Its so easy when its a classic isnt it?

Real0ne -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/18/2007 1:32:55 PM)
Hey I found more! Does any of this sound familiar? On October 7, 1940, Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum of the Office of Naval Intelligence submitted a memo to Navy Captains Walter Anderson and Dudley Knox (whose endorsement is included in the following scans). Captains Anderson and Knox were two of President Roosevelt's most trusted military advisors. The memo, scanned below, detailed an 8 step plan to provoke Japan into attacking the United States. President Roosevelt, over the course of 1941, implemented all 8 of the recommendations contained in the McCollum memo. Following the eighth provocation, Japan attacked. The public was told that it was a complete surprise, an "intelligence failure", and America entered World War Two. Page 1 Page 2 Page 3 Page 4 Page 5 Page 6 This memo, which proves that the government of the United States desired to lure Japan into an attack, was declassified in 1994. It took fifty years for the truth about Pearl Harbor to be revealed. Will we have to wait that long for the truth of 9-11 to come out? More about the Pearl Harbor Deception is at Pearl Harbor: Mother of all conspiracies (at least until 9/11) THE BONES OF STATION H The remains of the radio intercept station on Oahu that picked up Admiral Yamamoto's order for the attack. McClollum Memo Isnt it great when a conspiracy becomes a classic? THen its no longer a conspiracy so its legal to believe it eh... LOL

came4U -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/18/2007 8:18:41 PM)
I already went down that road with you and Thomspson on the subject of Pearl Harbour (many moons ago) lol. no comment (this time!) [;)]

SimplyMichael -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/18/2007 9:32:17 PM)
Pearl Harbor was NOT a consipiracy, it was infighting in DC over who had control over intelligence. Everyone thought it would be the Philipines and if the full Japanese plan had been carried out, we might have sued the Japanese for peace. They canceled the last flight of bombers and didn't strike the fuel depot.

Termyn8or -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/18/2007 9:50:31 PM)
Old news to me. Perhaps you all need a copy of my favorites folder, no wait, there are places in there that are waaaaaay too kinky for CM members. T

thompsonx -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/18/2007 9:56:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: came4U I already went down that road with you and Thomspson on the subject of Pearl Harbour (many moons ago) lol. no comment (this time!) [;)] came4u: Makes sense to me, you got your butt spanked pretty hard last time. thompson

thompsonx -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/18/2007 10:03:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Pearl Harbor was NOT a consipiracy, it was infighting in DC over who had control over intelligence. Everyone thought it would be the Philipines and if the full Japanese plan had been carried out, we might have sued the Japanese for peace. They canceled the last flight of bombers and didn't strike the fuel depot. Michael: Striking the fuel depot would not have made any difference. It took six months to put those old antique battle ships back on top of the water so it would have been more than enough time to build new tanks and bring in more fuel. The Japs never had a prayer of winning. thompson

Rule -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/18/2007 10:22:01 PM)
What was the full middle name of Kermit A. Tyler?

SimplyMichael -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 7:40:33 AM)
Without that fuel we wouldn't have been able to stop them at the Coral Sea nor Midway. The course of the war would have been radically different AND if they had caught the carriers it would REALLY have been different. Chew on this concept. Unlike Bush, Roosevelt wanted to win that war. Imagine if he knew the time and date of the attack which he would have had to do to save the carriers. Why not allow the attack to occur (as your theory claims), you know the time and date of the attack (again, as your theory claims) but after the attack, have your fleet in the perfect position to ambush and destroy the Japanese fleet? You get the war you wanted, a great victory, and it would have shortened the war by two years. Instead, Pearl Harbor had been stripped of offensive weapons which had been shifted to the Philipines under that idiot McFuckup, who then allowed it all to be destroyed. If that offensive might had been left on Pearl and a massive trap laid for the Japanese it would have had the potential to radically change the outcome of the war. Considering that Roosevelt had tried to start the war earlier with a convoy of old coal fired ships and was willing to start the war over that, I can't see them risking the destruction of Pearl. If McArthur had gotten all the offensive equipment from Pearl AND had used it after to strike a massive blow against Rabaul (which is where the Japanese struck the Philipines from) THEN I might buy your argument but he didn't, it was all destroyed. We are talking about state of the art PBYs, B17s, and fighters.

thompsonx -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 8:04:26 AM)
Michael: John Toland has an excellent two volume tome "The Decline and Fall of The Japanese Empire"ISBN 0812968581. In it he gives a pretty accurate assessment of Japans war making capacity. As to Roosevelt's motives for allowing Pearl Harbor and not setting a trap...one can only guess. I am sure from your knowledge of history; a public leaders concern for the number of body bags has never really had a huge bearing on their decisions. thompson

Rule -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 8:25:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx a public leaders concern for the number of body bags has never really had a huge bearing on their decisions. Quite. Kings have the innate urge to kill peasants and for that purpose and because they enjoy the fireworks and the loud bangs, they occasionally have a bit of fun (i.e. a war); it is as simple as that. That leaves just about the deepest mystery of Pearl: "What was the full middle name of Kermit A. Tyler?"

DomKen -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 10:13:28 AM)
FDR wanted to get involved in WWII? Really? That is shocking. What with lend lease and spy flights over Japan etc. I had always assumed FDR was a staunch pacifist. Sure we goaded the Japanese into war. You don't embargo belligerent aggressive regimes and not expect some sort of violent response. But I'm pretty sure no one knew the time and location of the attack. If we knew the entire Japanese carrier force was going to be at point X at time Y why not launch a carrier strike after the Japanese attack began? We would have faced an essentially defenseless fleet and every carrier we sink shortens the war. Furthermore if we knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor why shift all that top line equipment to Manilla which we will be unable to resupply or aid in the short term after the attack? Everybody is now aware that a Navy radio post and a Navy radar picked up the launch of the attack but were unable to rouse anyone at Pearl in time to get the fleet to GQ in time. Although even if they had it wouldn't have done much good as the battleships had very limited AA mounts and with them all moored together the torpedo bombers had easy targets.

Rule -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 10:45:13 AM)
I gather that you are still - erroneously - convinced that "cold water cannot retain as much gas in solution as warmer water"? http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1352989 Concentrate on facts, not interpretations, DK - and you will be rewarded with praise. The biggest secret of PH is the full middle name of Kermit A. Tyler. What name is the A. an abbreviation of? Tell me and I will lift my hat to you.

SimplyMichael -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 12:54:54 PM)
Who the fuck cares what his middle name was? If it was a grand conspiracy why have radar on the island at all? It was luck that the Japanese weren't discovered by pearl's scouts or did the conspiracy include the admirals allowing their careers to be destroyed as well?

Rule -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 1:50:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Who the fuck cares what his middle name was? I do, by whatever name I choose to call myself. [8D]

FatDomDaddy -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 4:37:38 PM)
To say that FDR knew about the exact day and time of the attack on Pearl Harbor and did nothing to protect Americans, there on Guam and in the Philippines and allowed them to die so we would then go to War is as idiotic a premise as saying GWB did the same thing on 9/11. Of course, that will not stop the wackos from saying FDR is being framed and Bush really did it.

thompsonx -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 7:55:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy To say that FDR knew about the exact day and time of the attack on Pearl Harbor and did nothing to protect Americans, there on Guam and in the Philippines and allowed them to die so we would then go to War is as idiotic a premise as saying GWB did the same thing on 9/11. Of course, that will not stop the wackos from saying FDR is being framed and Bush really did it. FatDomDaddy: You do not find any of the parallels to be interesting at all? Bush&co claim that it was a massive failure of the intelligence system that allowed 9/11 to happen. Same same with Roosevelt. At a time that Pearl Harbor was on a war footing. Sub nets on the harbor yadda yadda ....all the intel saying thus and so...the fact that we had broken the Jap naval code...letters from our ambassador to Japan...and it was refereed to at the time as a massive failure of intelligence. thompson

SimplyMichael -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/19/2007 10:06:32 PM)
Thompson, that analysis is beneeth you. Roosevelt wanted to get into the war to prevent the Japanese from seizing the entire Eastern Pacific for economic reasons and to help the Brits for moral reasons. Bush needed his pearl harbor for entirely different reasons and in that case I think they did know it was comming and did nothing. I frankly thing he sat there dumbly because he knew he had rolled the dice and was taking a huge risk. Analysis of intelligence isn't easy in the best of circumstances and the US in 1941 was not in the best of circumstances, there were serious turf wars going on in the intelligence services. To me, the way you look at these things is to look at who would have benefited, follow the money so to speak. Roosevelt wanted war but at what cost? The Pacific Fleet and Pearl? Loose all that and not strike back? I just can't buy it. If we knew the time and place we could have sunk half the jap navy, imagine the stories of the brave submariners who crippled the ships and the aviators who sunk them. Hindsight is truly 20-20 and that is all it is. Have you read "I was there" by Kimmels intelligence chief? Good read and I think it gives a much more balanced view of things. Of course he has an incentive to lay the blame elsewhere but it doesn't read that way.

thompsonx -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/23/2007 10:08:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Thompson, that analysis is beneeth you. Roosevelt wanted to get into the war to prevent the Japanese from seizing the entire Eastern Pacific for economic reasons and to help the Brits for moral reasons. There is more than a little evidence that his goals were much broader than that. To involve ourselves in the coming world conflict and emerge as the dominant economic power by allowing the other players to bleed themselves dry in the process. Bush needed his pearl harbor for entirely different reasons and in that case I think they did know it was comming and did nothing. I frankly thing he sat there dumbly because he knew he had rolled the dice and was taking a huge risk. Bottom line it is all about the Benjamins. Analysis of intelligence isn't easy in the best of circumstances and the US in 1941 was not in the best of circumstances, there were serious turf wars going on in the intelligence services. As has been the case since christ was a crossing guard. To me, the way you look at these things is to look at who would have benefited, follow the money so to speak. That is always the case. Roosevelt wanted war but at what cost? The Pacific Fleet and Pearl? Loose all that and not strike back? The BBs at Pearl were the oldest in the fleet and none mounted anything bigger than a 14" gun. All but two were tactical in less than six months....so no real losses cept for a couple of thousand body bags. I just can't buy it. If we knew the time and place we could have sunk half the jap navy, imagine the stories of the brave submariners who crippled the ships and the aviators who sunk them. Japs would still have "plausible deniability" and it would not necessarily bring Germany in which Roosevelt wanted. Hindsight is truly 20-20 and that is all it is. Have you read "I was there" by Kimmels intelligence chief? Good read and I think it gives a much more balanced view of things. Of course he has an incentive to lay the blame elsewhere but it doesn't read that way. I have only read excerpts from it. They tend to substantiate my feelings on the subject. Roosevelt was an astute player and would have certainly been aware of the infighting...Another good read is "The Roosevelt Myth"by John Flynn ISBN0930073274 It gives a broader picture of Roosevelt and his pupettering.

DomKen -> RE: World War 2 Nostalgia (10/23/2007 11:51:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx There is more than a little evidence that his goals were much broader than that. To involve ourselves in the coming world conflict and emerge as the dominant economic power by allowing the other players to bleed themselves dry in the process. Wait a minute, you're talking about FDR? The man decried than and now as at best a socialist? The one who crafted and enforced pro union laws and the social safety net? The one who gave the fruits of american industry away under the guise of lend-lease? WTF!

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