RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:17:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

No hostitly from me. I am being honest in that I find your posts amusing to say the least. Your arguments have so little logic in them to be not worth debate. Suggesting aborting a fetus that has no viability is the same as killing a toddler is ridiculous.


No viability?  It's not abortion if it's already did, susie, nor much of an abortion if it's about to die.  But, if it's going to live, it has viability.  Would you tell a person who grew up in an unloving home that they have no viability?

And, hey, what's different about killing a toddler and a fetus?  Neither's fully developed, right?  Neither's really that afraid of death.  The one difference I tend to note is that people feel for it more since they can see it with their own eyes.  I tend to find people have differnt opinions after seeing abortions performed in the late-term.  It's when they can see the child's mangled and mutilated corpse that they begin to have some understanding of just what it is.

Please, do tell me; what would you have done, in Omelas?




LotusSong -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:21:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: favesclava

here's hoping that one day soon every child will be a loved wanted child. that every woman will cry for joy when the test strip turns positive.


... and I hope the the sperm donor will rejoice in kind and make sure he donates at least the next 18 years in raising said child in loving support of his female he impregnated.




unownedkitty -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:22:21 PM)

just wondering has anyone seen a 20 to 24 week old baby? do u know what they look like? for those who dont and think aborting a 20-24 week baby should google or something to see what it looks like but saying that from 12 weeks up they look and act like babys but i am saying 20 weeks as 20 weeks is the earliest a baby has lived out of the womb but the most common is 22 upwards




susie -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:24:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

No hostitly from me. I am being honest in that I find your posts amusing to say the least. Your arguments have so little logic in them to be not worth debate. Suggesting aborting a fetus that has no viability is the same as killing a toddler is ridiculous.


No viability?  It's not abortion if it's already did, susie, nor much of an abortion if it's about to die.  But, if it's going to live, it has viability.  Would you tell a person who grew up in an unloving home that they have no viability?

And, hey, what's different about killing a toddler and a fetus?  Neither's fully developed, right?  Neither's really that afraid of death.  The one difference I tend to note is that people feel for it more since they can see it with their own eyes.  I tend to find people have differnt opinions after seeing abortions performed in the late-term.  It's when they can see the child's mangled and mutilated corpse that they begin to have some understanding of just what it is.

Please, do tell me; what would you have done, in Omelas?


If you cannot see the difference between aborting a fetus at say 12 weeks and killing a toddler at 12 months then really there is nothing to be said.

I also do not see that a work of fiction has anything to do with the serious matter of abortion.




Level -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:25:25 PM)

My obligatory contribution to every abortion thread that rears its head:

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the research arm of the nation’s leading abortion provider, Planned Parenthood:

At current rates, an estimated 43 percent of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45.

  • Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.
  • Fifty-two percent of U.S. women having abortions are younger than 25 years old.
  • About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest—representing 1 percent of all abortions.3 "






      Social Reasons (given as primary reason)


        - Feels unready for responsibility
      21%

        - Feels she can't afford baby
      21%

        - Concern for how baby would change her life
      16%

        - Relationship problem
      12%

        - Feels she isn't mature enough
      11%

        - Has all the children she wants
      8%

        - Other reasons
      4-5%




      TOTAL:
      93%


      "Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)



        - Mother's Health
      3%

        - Baby may have health problem
      3%

        - Rape or Incest
      1%




       
      TOTAL:




      7%



      Source:  Aida Torres and J.D. Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?"
      Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 20 No. 4 (July/August 1988) p. 170.
       
      According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, there has been nearly 40,000,000 abortions in the United States from 1973 through 1998. If the above cited statistics are correct, that means over 37,000,000 were for "convience".
      -------------------
      Week 3

      At this point, the blastocyst, or developing embryo, is looking for a spot to implant in the uterus.  Early formation of the central nervous system, backbone, and spinal column has begun.  The gastrointestinal system has also begun to develop with the kidneys, liver, and intestines forming.  The heart has begun to form. 

      Week 5

      The embryo’s tiny heart begins to beat by day twenty-one.  The brain has developed into 5 areas and some cranial nerves are visible.  Arm and leg buds are visible and the formation of the eyes, lips, and nose has begun.  The spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body giving a tail like appearance which disappears as the embryo continues to grow.  The placenta begins to provide nourishment for the embryo.   

      Week 7

      Major organs have all begun to form.  The embryo has developed its own blood type, unique from the mother’s.  Hair follicles and nipples form and knees and elbows are visible.  Facial features are also observable.  The eyes have a retina and lens.  The major muscle system is developed and the embryo is able to move.

      Weeks 9-12

      The heart is almost completely developed and the heart rate can be heard on a Doppler machine at the doctor’s office.  Most major organs and tissues have developed and red blood cells are now produced in the liver.  The face is well formed and the eyes are almost fully developed.  The eyelids will close and not reopen until the 28th week.  Arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes are fully formed.  Nails and earlobes start to form and tooth buds develop in the gums.  Fetus can make a fist with its finger.  Testosterone (male sex hormone) is produced by the testes in male fetus. 

      And so on. For anyone wishing to see images of the fetal development spoken about above, here are a couple of  links:  http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml   or http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm






    • julietsierra -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:27:19 PM)

      Well, as someone who has lived this, I can actually understand both sides of the fence. Those who are pro-life could call the choice I made a matter of convenience. I didn't, although, at first in the larger scheme of things, it was. And I've paid a high price for that - up until recently when I finally FINALLY was helped to understand some other things about this whole argument that are intensely personal.

      The bottom line though is that in my house - I was married at the time - "no" was not allowed. So, choice when it came to sex was also not an option. My husband didn't like the fact that I was in school. He'd tried everything else to stop me, so the day he informed me that I was going to have another baby, we were in a race to see if I could get away before getting pregnant. Contraception was also not a choice due to his religious views. Unfortunately, I was also financial prisoner in my own home. I had no money, no credit cards, no transportation and my nearest family lived 1300 miles away. I had three kids, one of whom was disabled. He was threatening the kids that if we left, he'd kill their dog. They were terrified, I was terrified and felt I had few options.

      The day he turned on my oldest because HE (my husband) walked through a screen door that my son had shut (as he was supposed to do) and unleashed his anger on him was the day I realized that what I'd been putting up with until I could get to a point where I was able to support the kids and me on our own, was moving on to the next person that  "challenged" his authority in our family. It was no longer something that was just happening to me. Now, my kids were at risk.

      I was attending college at the time (all transportation provided by a g/f, all babysitting done gratis by another g/f, everyone I knew helping me do what I had to do to get away). Classes were paid for with what I could skim off of the grocery money. Each time he found out I'd paid for more classes, I paid physically for that "crime." I still attended school, regardless of broken bones, busted lips and the never-ending terror of leaving my kids, knowing he could choose that day to come home early and find me gone.

      That June, I knew I'd lost the race.

      I had an abortion. I went in on my own, went through the procedure with no anesthetic because I didn't have a ride home, and drove home on my own afterwards (again, another g/f watching the kids gratis while I went.). Was it convenience? I suppose those virilently opposed to abortion would say yes. However, for me, it was a matter of safety - both for myself and the children I already had. I finished school a couple of months later and left shortly after that.

      It's been hard dealing with the ramifications of what I did. I've felt guilty - and yet, each time I look back on that time and try to find another solution, there just wasn't any. I still don't see any. Lots of people on the outside looking in could and probably will find reasons why I could have chosen another path. But being there and living that life on a day to day basis, I can tell you, there wasn't any other choice.

      I've never told my now-ex-husband. I wanted away - not to destroy even more people than were already hurt by the lives we were leading. I certainly didn't want to destroy him. I just wanted to stop being hurt, and I wanted my children and me to feel safe.

      People have asked me why I didn't call the police...why I didn't go to shelters...and lots of other things. I can only say that after "hypothetical" discussions with people I knew in our town who were police officers, I knew that because he was my husband, rape would have been next to impossible to prove. I also knew that for the children I have, he would ALWAYS be their father and I didn't want them to ever see him in that light. They knew enough and had been through enough already. It's why I never prosecuted for abuse as well, even though they knew more than I was even aware of regarding what he did. We lived in a small town and I never wanted the knowledge of the fact that their father had been arrested to follow them through school.

      Convenience? Murder? Possibly. However, my view has been that unless any one of us has been to see whatever/whoever it is that is in charge of the hereafter and found out that he/she/it sees things in any specific way, I'll just have to take my chances. I took the option that was legally open to me. If I'd carried that pregnancy to term, adoption wouldn't have been an option because I was married and the rights of the father would come into play. If I'd carried that pregnancy to term, leaving would have been an impossibility for a coupld of more years at least, not to mention that statistically, I faced a 1 in 4 chance of having another child with disabilities and I could barely afford to take care of the one I had - both emotionally and financially. I'd run out of time and I'd run out of options every which way I looked.

      I did what I had to do. These days, I'm firmly of the belief that what I did was right and that the fetus I aborted, in energy form, is somehow aware that I did what I had to do and it's all right.

      And all the opinions of everyone else matters not one whit to me beyond that.

      The children I have are safe. The child I was unable to have is fine and that's all that matters to me. (To explain this more would entail me going into more depth regarding my religious views and this isn't the place for it, nor is it germain to the conversation here. Besides, because they ARE my religious views, there isn't anything anyone going to say that will change them.)

      So, if you are one of those people who like to say "I choose who I will be around and I would choose not to be around someone who's done this - well, aren't you glad there's no door here for you to find your way through. And claiming you wouldn't want to be around me as if it's somehow some sort of testament to my own personal worth is laughable at best. It presumes on the front end that I'd want to be around you.

      juliet




      unownedkitty -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:27:40 PM)

      http://www.charmaineyoest.com/uploads/amillia_in_safe_hands_yoest_22_weeks.jpg  a pic od a 22 week baby




      CuriousLord -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:28:38 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: FullCircle
      quote:

      ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
      But what's more alive than one just starting?


      You could probably take this standpoint if you have never killed an insect as that is life too and at some stages far more complex than the cluster of cells that makes up an early foetus.


      If flies were the start of a human life?  I suppose so.  But.. well, they're more the start of a fly's life, and they don't have very much value to most of us.

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: FullCircle
      I guess what I hope scientists look for when they decide at what stage abortion is ok is the level of sentience of the foetus.


      Ah!  I love this argument.  The level of sentience.  You see, if it holds, then I'm already predisposed to have a value far greater than that of others.

      But, pardon my ego, as it hasn't been surficiently demonstrated to meet my claim, and allow me to default to the more generic arguement.  How could we argue that life is equal, if sentience is unequal?  Surely, we must be blind to assume people are equally self-aware!  I would hardly find it to be exergating to say that some are magnitudes more self-aware than others.

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: FullCircle
      We kill things all the time because it is convenient to us; you eat meat? So what is the difference if you kill your own product? I don’t mean to sound harsh about it but on the face of it it’s a bit of a double standard.


      Yeah, killing for meat's always such a hard thing to justify.  It's a good point, too.  A necessary evil, I suppose?  It tends to be human life that we value, first and foremost.  Afterall, a cow doesn't have the potential to be a human, and, therefore, we don't empathize with it so.  Still, it throws me off enough that I eat chicken as meat, refusing beef and pork.




      celticlord2112 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:32:16 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: LotusSong

      (fast reply to no one in particular)
       
      I just find it absolutely funny when the GUYS are always so against a termination of a pregnancy.  Sure- they can be so adamant about something THEY can walk away from at will.  If guys really GAVE a damn about their "seed"- they'd stop spewing it and take accountability for it.
       
      For me- a guy's prostesting against a woman's right to choose is laughable.



      I'm a guy.   I do not shirk any responsibility in my life; I take full ownership of all the choices I have made in my life.

      And I protest this ugly and detestable notion that abortion is merely a "woman's right to choose".

      Laugh all you want.  Laugh long and loud.  It won't change the unalterable fact that abortion is the willful and deliberate taking of human life.  It is killing, pure and simple.  If you find the taking of human life a comical thing, then I pity the poverty of your existence.




      unownedkitty -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:35:36 PM)

      if you keep the baby u will expect the man to pay for it whether he wants it or not but he has no say in if the baby lives or not??? that i find wrong




      julietsierra -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:36:23 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: LotusSong

      (fast reply to no one in particular)
       
      I just find it absolutely funny when the GUYS are always so against a termination of a pregnancy.  Sure- they can be so adamant about something THEY can walk away from at will.  If guys really GAVE a damn about their "seed"- they'd stop spewing it and take accountability for it.
       
      For me- a guy's prostesting against a woman's right to choose is laughable.



      I'm a guy.   I do not shirk any responsibility in my life; I take full ownership of all the choices I have made in my life.

      And I protest this ugly and detestable notion that abortion is merely a "woman's right to choose".

      Laugh all you want.  Laugh long and loud.  It won't change the unalterable fact that abortion is the willful and deliberate taking of human life.  It is killing, pure and simple.  If you find the taking of human life a comical thing, then I pity the poverty of your existence.



      I find nothing laughable about having to make a choice like that. I find it abhorent that a woman be placed in the position of feeling she actually has to make such a choice.

      juliet




      MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:37:18 PM)

      Thank you for sharing this very personal story on the board. It was very brave of you.

      MSS




      julietsierra -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:44:33 PM)

      Thank you. The point is that while we can talk objectively and angrily on both sides of the fence about this subject, the actual decision to have an abortion is never objective and it's never easy. The decision to go through with an abortion is intensely subjective and all the cries of "murder" and "personal choice" don't change that one iota.

      juliet




      unownedkitty -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:46:40 PM)

      i think the word murder comes into it when the baby reaches a certain age and for some people it may be sensitive like for me its purely personal why i think 22 weeks is murder as i gave birth and watched my child die so maybe when i read things like this i should take deep breath breath and think out side of my box??




      laurell3 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:48:12 PM)

      Level those statistics assume that rape/incest victims report their reasons for an abortion when getting it. In my experience having worked with them and domestic violence victims for quite some time, this is rarely the case.  However, I'm sure even with accurate statistics, the numbers would still show that most abortions are convience based.

      The problem with this topic is that everyone on either side feels very strongly about their viewpoint and that it is absolutely THE right one.  I have found in life that this is rarely the case.  Religious based objections that judge and condemn seem contradictory to me. 

      As Juliet's story points out, being there, having to face the reality of it is much different than touting statistics and quoting religion.  As I pointed out earlier, I am pro-choice because of my ongoing continual work with the families in the trenches that deal with these everyday issues rather than mere words, however, I would not condemn or insult someone that had a different view than mine.  Honestly neither should any of you.




      servantheart -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:51:13 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: julietsierra

      I find nothing laughable about having to make a choice like that. I find it abhorent that a woman be placed in the position of feeling she actually has to make such a choice.

      juliet


      I am sorry for what you endured at the hands of your ex-husband.  I am truly sorry he put you in a position of feeling like you had no other choice.  We can't change our past, so judging ourselves too harshly serves no purpose.  Your ex-husband is not what I consider a Man, but rather a low-life coward.  Only cowards feel the need to create an existence such as what you described for those they supposedly love.  I wish you the best in your life's journey and am glad things have ultimately turned out well for you.  You have my respect for being strong enough to get yourself and your children away from that abusive situation.
       
      Taryn
       
       
       




      laurell3 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:52:26 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: unownedkitty

      if you keep the baby u will expect the man to pay for it whether he wants it or not but he has no say in if the baby lives or not??? that i find wrong


      unownedkitty in the US now it makes no difference whether the woman wants the man to pay or not.  Once the child starts to receive any benefits, the woman is required to complete a paternity affidavit and the state will pursue them for child support.  Child support enforcement can include garnishment, attachment of tax refunds, incarceration, suspension of driver's license and vehicle license, seizure of personal assets, attachment of autos and real property. 

      I agree, (except with regard to rape and/or incest) a man has the right to have a say in what happens to his unborn child as well and this is the law in most states.




      LotusSong -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:52:31 PM)

      If you think that all life has to be manifested to be effective, think on this -
       
      some life makes a greater impact and teaches a greater lesson by the brevity or knowledge of it's existence. 
       
      (...and celticlord2112- YOU are exactly the type of person I laugh at.




      hermione83 -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:53:44 PM)

      I am certainly pro-life, and think abortion is wrong; however, I don't think it should be illegal in every capacity. Under extreme cases, it really should be a choice, and there should be doctors that should be able to safely and legally perform it. However, I think it should be much harder to get one. I do realize that for most women it is a horrible, traumatic thing to go through. On the other hand, I personally knew a women in my college sociology class who claimed to have had seven abortions, without any damage to her body, or any care. By different fathers, just because she didn't take the time to use any kind of birth control at all. I can't imagine anyone's body taking seven pregnancies by her age. I think the law / a doctor / hospital should be able to refuse such a person. I don't think its a reproductive right, it involves a second human being - not just yourself. You don't have the right to murder someone because they are inconviencing you in some way. I personally have qualms with the death penalty for a guilty person. But, then I talk to people who are against the dealth penalty, AND pro-choice. How could someone think that a serial killer is worth sparing, but not a completely innocent, dependant child? And no, I see no difference between the first cells of a baby, a 12 month old, or a 60 year old man. They're all human beings. (In fact, though I definitely believe in birth control - I feel sick when people tell me they use some of the few methods like IUD's out there that actually result in continual early abortions and I must guess doctor's don't explain this to women, instead of forms such as contraceptive pills that prevent pregnancy by making cells less able to be implanted/sticking, making it a more hostile environment etc) I think the easiest way to see the moral fiber and heart of a person, is to see how they treat those smaller / beneath them. Be that an animal, a child, or someone much farther down on the food chain at your place of employment when no one is watching. (Me - I don't want any children at all. Ever. I would *want* to hurl myself off a cliff if I ever got pregnant. So, I can understand not wanting an adorable bounding baby *AND* have compassion for babies and children even though I don't want to have any myself in any way. If I was in this horrible situation, I might want to have an abortion, but I wouldn't, no matter what. The baby would be first. Not me.) It's *usually* a persons choice to have sex, so if you do, you know the possible consequences. The baby didn't have a choice on whehter it's life would start, or be taken away. People who have sex started a baby's life. That was their choice. They cannot then take the life of a child. Who is more innocent than a twinkling new life? Certainly not any parent. If you don't have a heart to spare your own baby..... well, that says something about you. Even if it means a lot of pain for you. It is selfish to think of yourself over anyone else - particularly a child, a baby.. and your own baby? Even one's selfish parts would have love for a part of onesself. In the cases of rape, incest, exteme medical problems - I do understand. That wasn't a choice that they made.




      susie -> RE: Abortion (10/7/2007 2:53:48 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: julietsierra

      Thank you. The point is that while we can talk objectively and angrily on both sides of the fence about this subject, the actual decision to have an abortion is never objective and it's never easy. The decision to go through with an abortion is intensely subjective and all the cries of "murder" and "personal choice" don't change that one iota.

      juliet



      I agree totally. For those that have suggested that the decision is easy have obviously never been faced with the reality of that choice.

      Thank you for sharing your story and showing that there are so many things involved in those decisions.




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