RE: Machismo and BDSM

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Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:04:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Oy. I don't see machismo as a reaction to what a man can do. It is how a man feels and shows himself to the world, not about lifting something heavier than me. So is it "masculine pride" because a man is showing pride? quote: Most here have tried to explain how they see it, similiar to me. Just read their answers again and maybe you will get it. I hope you will forgive me if I continue with the discussion, Camille. I've been at this for about three hours now and I've yet to get to the end of the thread [;)] Everyone who has contributed something on the topic has furthered my understanding and perhaps the understanding of others as well. I find the discussion fascinating. I hope it continues.

heartfeltsub -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:06:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin aaah ... Are you saying that men of principle, who refuse to be moved from their principled position, exude machismo from your point of view? i don't as a general rule get involved in bob's threads because they all tend to degenerate to a vain attempt on someone's part to get bob to see any other point of view than his own. However this statement caught my eye and made me wonder if this is how he sees how he interacts on these boards as a man of principle who refuses to be moved from his position of principle as opposed to how i think at least of us others see him. (Trying not to put words in anyone else's mouth) quote: i see men who agressively debate or argue the same as a men who chest thump - both are displaying machismo. quoted from velvetears Just wondering. heartfelt

velvetears -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:10:46 AM)
Do men always display machismo to attract the female or are their other motives - simply to feel better about themselves a way to boost their own egos and self esteem? Women wear makeup, i am sure it's not always to attract men. Many say they wear it to feel better about themselves, it boosts their confidence. It is satisfying in and of itself to feel feminine, nothing to do with attracting men, at least imo... are men wired that differently that it's always about attracting/conquering the female? Whenever we exaggerate something aren't we trying to feel it more deeply? Another example of machismo could be the guy who has attained a lot of wealth, seeing that as a sign of his masculinity. With wealth comes power and how many men have attracted females using this tactic? It all depends on what a man considers masculine - and the woman who respond what they consider masculine.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:14:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin Anyone interested in seeing what desirable women looked like to our primitive ancestors is invited to view the picture here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines The above is a figurine carved some 25,000 years ago, and it is one of many similar figurines that have been found in Europe. It's a little odd to try and compare ideals from 25,000 years ago to today. That ideal only meant that the tribe of people were successful enough to provide food. Food and shelter = life. Those figurines have been found scattered across Europe, and over a ten thousand year period if I recall correctly. Because of their standardized appearance and distribution through time and space, they are considered religious in nature, depicting the idealized female form. Pagans might better recognize her as Gaia, the fertile earth mother. Keep in mind this was from a time before agriculture, so she is not a harvest god. And she does not appear to be a goddess of the hunt. Her role seems more appropriate as a goddess of reproduction: 'love' (ergo a "Venus"). If this speculation is correct (and that's all it is, as we have very little to use to interpret the figurines), the figurines represent the most desirable qualities in a woman, exaggerated, as viewed across most of Europe for a ten thousand year period in our past. These qualities may have always been desirable, but it was only during this period that our prehistoric ancestors left anything to show what they liked.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:14:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen68 I see them both as displays and I see them as one being no better than the other even though I have a preference for one over the other. I doubt that he does though. Actually, being very serious and all teasing aside, I agree with you and see them both as displays of machismo. He's already stated he doesn't see them both as posturing. Which explains a whole hell of a lot. Mostly it clarifies why he is not grasping what others have tried to explain.

velvetears -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:22:51 AM)
FR Sticking to ones principles is something both men and woman can achieve, i don't think it's a machismo characteristic if ALL humans are capable of it. Having and sticking to your principals is not a strictly masculine trait, to believe so would be an insult to women. [edited because i forgot to add the FR - again [&o]]

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:25:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue ... a single, heavily-caricatured and over-inflated sub-class does not prove a global theory. I agree. quote: As to the original point, I think it depends entirely how you frame a definition of “machismo”; for some it’s merely a pride in “maleness”, without much of the more dubious elements you’re trying to tack onto it. For others, it’s become (through misuse of the word and context) the worst excesses of the destructive male forces. Definitions have been provided consistent with those in my dictionary, RF. It's not me tacking on anything, nor misuse of the word. I agree there is also a definition that says it can be "masculine pride" (as Camille put it), but no one has really defined how that differs from "pride" or "feminine pride". quote: Personally, I’ve found that those who adopt a posture of machismo tend to be fools or charlatans, whereas those who merely take a simple pride in their own abilities, and often those of others, are positive forces in life. Agreed. quote: As to the “why” you keep asking, I would suggest that, historically, women have been attracted to strong, male providers, from cave times onwards. The fact that these desires are somewhat frowned upon by society these days as a sign of an under-evolved mind, as if they were something bad, only increases their appeal to some women. It’s Newtonian; you push society in one direction here, an equal and opposite reaction takes place there. Some women are into strong-minded, direct, “male” men. Some aren’t. T’was ever thus, and forever will be. And a jolly good thing too, say I. “Machismo; helping dominant blokes get laid since 15,000 BC.” Thanks for your thoughts on this, as well as the 'cave-man' metaphor.

breatheasone -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:26:13 AM)
quote: Another example of machismo could be the guy who has attained a lot of wealth, seeing that as a sign of his masculinity. With wealth comes power and how many men have attracted females using this tactic? It all depends on what a man considers masculine - and the woman who respond what they consider masculine. I've heard it said..."You'll lose alot of money chasing women, but You won't necessarily lose women chasing money"

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:31:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Oh come now, nothing turns most guys on more than a "CAT FIGHT!!!" A couple weeks ago I visited some aquaintances that were camping not far from where I live. There was a playful mudwrestling between 3-5 women of various ages. All the guys standing around in a circle avidly watching, just hoping and praying to see a mud covered breast being groped by another woman. My apologies. You are correct. Hadn't even entered my head.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:35:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Bob I think that you are taking one and only one view as to what machismo means, and you have received a whole lotta answers as to why women tend to like a man who has machismo because they areconfident within themselves, andconfident in their place in society. Camille, do you feel the need to stop the discussion?

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:43:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears FR Sticking to ones principles is something both men and woman can achieve, i don't think it's a machismo characteristic if ALL humans are capable of it. Having and sticking to your principals is not a strictly masculine trait, to believe so would be an insult to women. [edited because i forgot to add the FR - again [&o]] My original statement was "digging in your heels and not budging no matter what" or something to that affect. I did not, at all, refer to sticking to ones princicples. That was how Bob translated it and so your statement is taking my coment out of context based off his translation. While both men and women can achieve high levels of bullheadedness, by referencing it as an example of Machismo I was not saying that women can't be every bit as stubborn.

velvetears -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:46:00 AM)
i wasn't referring to your statement winsome, i was in fact referring to bobs, why you thought i was taking yours out of context is a mystery to me - i didn't specify.

Bobkgin -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:48:05 AM)
To the audience at large: Finally, caught up. I see once again a thread has become about me and my imagined foibles and beliefs, and not so much the topic. A pity, it was going so well, too. Nonetheless, thanks to those of you who contributed on-topic material. I will continue to check in and hope for more.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:49:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears i wasn't referring to your statement winsome, i was in fact referring to bobs, why you thought i was taking yours out of context is a mystery to me - i didn't specify. I saw the reply to winsome at the bottom of your response which is where I thought you were confusing what I'd said with how it was translated.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:52:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To the audience at large: Finally, caught up. I see once again a thread has become about me and my imagined foibles and beliefs, and not so much the topic. A pity, it was going so well, too. Nonetheless, thanks to those of you who contributed on-topic material. I will continue to check in and hope for more. Bob, I'm honestly not being critical of you or making this about your foibles. You posed a question, provided an example and stated you were still not understanding the "why" of things. I was trying to point out that your being unable to comprehend the why, is based off your focus on your own definition/perception of Machismo. Regardless, I have a class in an hour and am signing off. Winsome - over and out.

velvetears -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:56:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To the audience at large: Finally, caught up. I see once again a thread has become about me and my imagined foibles and beliefs, and not so much the topic. A pity, it was going so well, too. Nonetheless, thanks to those of you who contributed on-topic material. I will continue to check in and hope for more. i think it is going well, why the need to insult so passive agressively? To disregard peoples contributions, whether or not you agree with them, is insulting. i have personally found the discussion interesting and thought provoking.

stef -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 8:59:28 AM)
Bob, Is your rampant one true wayism your attempt at projecting machismo because it would be a blow to your manly ego to admit that you generally have no idea what you're talking about? ~stef

breatheasone -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 9:00:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin To the audience at large: Finally, caught up. I see once again a thread has become about me and my imagined foibles and beliefs, and not so much the topic. A pity, it was going so well, too. Nonetheless, thanks to those of you who contributed on-topic material. I will continue to check in and hope for more. Bob, I'm honestly not being critical of you or making this about your foibles. You posed a question, provided an example and stated you were still not understanding the "why" of things. I was trying to point out that your being unable to comprehend the why, is based off your focus on your own definition/perception of Machismo. Regardless, I have a class in an hour and am signing off. Winsome - over and out. See...I get this...I was the same way about Daddy/daughter relationships....I ABSOLUTELY couldn't for the life of me "get" them.... In a thread about them I began to understand....and as I began to "get" it, not only did it appeal to me...I actually began to see a need, and a desire for it in my own life. What a DIFFERENCE huh?! I was amazed at the enlightenment I was able to get my closing my mouth,(hands off the keyboard) and listening to the gracious people that were willing to share here.

velvetears -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 9:06:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone See...I get this...I was the same way about Daddy/daughter relationships....I ABSOLUTELY couldn't for the life of me "get" them.... In a thread about them I began to understand....and as I began to "get" it, not only did it appeal to me...I actually began to see a need, and a desire for it in my own life. What a DIFFERENCE huh?! I was amazed at the enlightenment I was able to get my closing my mouth,(hands off the keyboard) and listening to the gracious people that were willing to share here. Amazing what an open mind can accomplish, that is awesome breatheasone. Thanks for sharing that [:)]

RapierFugue -> RE: Machismo and BDSM (10/9/2007 9:12:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Bob it has been 8 pages and 87 posts on this, yet you still cling to your and only your definition. It gets frustrating because although you say you are open to learning you just won't let go of your opinion.[8\|] I have noticed a tendency for him to do that; to ask questions, claim to be open-minded, then just repeat his original non-argument endlessly until everyone goes home, bored rigid. OTOH I’ve often been accused of being capable of starting a fight in a phone box myself, so maybe it’s not for me to comment :)

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