RE: Breaking a sub/slave?

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wisteriaV -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 1:25:52 PM)
There is a whole score of psychological disorders that this relationship would be the poster child for. < Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/23/2007 7:46:16 AM > Actually if you check the DSM youd find those of us in the alternative lifechoices such as M/s. Ds/, practice any form of BDSM and Gor would be refered to as sexual divants and indeed have psychological disorders. However the thread does provide for some interesting reading and contimplative situational behaviors.[8\|]

Rover -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 1:30:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisteriaV Actually if you check the DSM youd find those of us in the alternative lifechoices such as M/s. Ds/, practice any form of BDSM and Gor would be refered to as sexual divants and indeed have psychological disorders. However the thread does provide for some interesting reading and contimplative situational behaviors.[8\|] I do believe you've quite overstated the case when you say "any form of BDSM" is a psychological disorder according to the DSM IV. Quite. John

Cyntilating -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 2:55:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster quote: ORIGINAL: Cyntilating quote: ORIGINAL: wisteriaV I have heard the term "breaking a sub and/or slave" several times. I know I will get many diverse answers to this question which will help me to understand the concept better. What does the term "breaking a sub and/or slave " mean? From what I have gathered thus far its a breaking of a will or spirit.... I call " bullshit" to anyone that tries to glorify or justify this manner of "mastery" .. What does the term "breaking a sub and/or slave " mean? [ gonna call slave a "she" and the breakER a "he", but I am sure it goes both ways gender wise] What it means is that the sub/slave has found herself someone who practices controlling* through fear and force.* vs someone who is IN control using self-discipline, patience, authority, leadership and EXPERIENCE. breaking a toy is what a toddler does when it doesn't cooperate or bend and they just don't possess the maturity, skills(motor-skills) or patience yet to know how to properly play with and cause the toy to function the way he wants it to. so you say you break your subs will and spirit? do you also > pick up an axe and chop the top of the new ketchup bottle off??, instead of taking the time to unscrew the cap, remove the protective seal and squeeze the bottle with just enough patience and self-control to apply the desired amt of condiment to your "HOTDOG"? when a kitten is playing with you, and it accidently scratches....do you break its arm? can you even build a proper fire from scratch? or do you prefer to own a fireplace, but could care less that you don't know how to make it burn and warm you? too much trouble and work to skillfully deal with that flame..ooo you might get burned a little. just stick a candle in it everyonceinawhile...for effect. or better yet...homedepot sells those cans of liquid flame........you can hardly tell its not the "real deal" .. easily started easily put out....no fuss no muss.. nothing ventured.......nothing gained.. you'll certainly never get burned by that baby! whew. [:@] ya ok...this one pushed my buttons.......so sue me for having a passionate opinion about this topic. personally> I will keep my spirit and my will ( self-esteem) firmly intact and if you don't have the patience to deal with me that way? its YOUR loss. OH they also sell these little rubber puss errr "things" at the sex shops now...you can stick your hotdog in there anytime you want...and then put it back up on the shelf...nice and tidy. CONDIMENTS are extra. Lots of assumptions. Ganna clear up some terminology, since it can get confusing and we are going in the deep deep end. Hmm, first, a submissive is not a slave, nor a slave a submissive, the two are different psychological profiles, different natures. What works with one, will damage the other, and vice versa, by their natures they respond to different stimuli and different approaches. Submissives are Dominated, Slaves are Mastered, again, there's a difference and it corresponds to that difference between submissive and slave. Normally these distinctions don't matter, but since we are going into something very deep, and very dangerous, it is important to be clear of the roles and natures. Now most women are composed of a mix of the two - submissive/slave (which is why, generally , the distinction doesn't matter) - however, the exact midpoint 50% submissive, 50% slave is as rare as that which lies at either end of the spectrum, thats not important, the importance is that there are rare women that do lay exactly on the 100% slave mark. Breaking doesn't require fear or force - leastwise not physical force. It requires patience, intense understanding, and dedication. It does frequently involve degrees of pain, since what is being induced is a final letting go of resistance to being, and transitioning to simply being, and this is happening at a fundemental level within the woman. It takes a great deal of care, and an intimate connection with the slave. However, as dangerous as it is, and as abhorrent as it might seem, for this rare woman, it is the only way in which she can truly be fulfilled. Breaking a submissive, yields an automaton, a dull lifeless and listless creature, and the act is an abomination. SFM ( sorry for delay in response...I was at work) I appreciate you trying to explain this further. I am still not getting why? the slave already* has the desire to serve and please and obey> why the need to break?* What you describe sounds like training. THAT I could grasp. Breaking spirit ?....I consider myself an open-minded individual....however, I can't embrace that idea as anything more than abuse.

MadRabbit -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 3:02:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisteriaV There is a whole score of psychological disorders that this relationship would be the poster child for. < Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/23/2007 7:46:16 AM > Actually if you check the DSM youd find those of us in the alternative lifechoices such as M/s. Ds/, practice any form of BDSM and Gor would be refered to as sexual divants and indeed have psychological disorders. However the thread does provide for some interesting reading and contimplative situational behaviors.[8\|] This is such a straw man argument given that we are talking about a relationship that has such an incredibly high level of psychological codepency that if the Master were to one day get hit by a bus on his way to work, God only knows what would happen to the slave. Yet...people wonder why I consider this subject to not have any place on the mantle of sanity. Got to love Politically Correct Collarme.com...

RRafe -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 3:04:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: wisteriaV There is a whole score of psychological disorders that this relationship would be the poster child for. < Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/23/2007 7:46:16 AM > Actually if you check the DSM youd find those of us in the alternative lifechoices such as M/s. Ds/, practice any form of BDSM and Gor would be refered to as sexual divants and indeed have psychological disorders. However the thread does provide for some interesting reading and contimplative situational behaviors.[8\|] This is such a straw man argument given that we are talking about a relationship that has such an incredibly high level of psychological codepency that if the Master were to one day get hit by a bus on his way to work, God only knows what would happen to the slave. Yet...people wonder why I consider this subject to not have any place on the mantle of sanity. Got to love Politically Correct Collarme.com... I've always been against codependnece as a dynamic. Two weak people together do NOT equal one whole one.

Rover -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 3:52:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I've always been against codependnece as a dynamic. Two weak people together do NOT equal one whole one. I'm really not picking on you personally, but this is one of my pet peeves. "Codependency" as a psychological condition is not being mutually dependent upon one another. It's when someone who has an addiction (drugs, alcohol, etc.) or other pathological condition manipulates those around them, often to provide the means to continue to fulfill their addiction (as in an "enabler"). It's a common misuse of the term. John

Kaiynasha -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 4:00:35 PM)
Breaking a slave to me...should be specific and not to break their spirit or mind. For example breaking someone from a bad habit or an idea. It should not be simply breaking someone because one feels like it or feels like they need to be on Top. But I do believe a slave sometimes needs to be broken. Period.

chellekitty -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 5:39:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I've always been against codependnece as a dynamic. Two weak people together do NOT equal one whole one. I'm really not picking on you personally, but this is one of my pet peeves. "Codependency" as a psychological condition is not being mutually dependent upon one another. It's when someone who has an addiction (drugs, alcohol, etc.) or other pathological condition manipulates those around them, often to provide the means to continue to fulfill their addiction (as in an "enabler"). It's a common misuse of the term. John actually John...you're making the term way too narrow with the use of the word "addiction"...a codependent person is anyone who enables the other person to be dependent on them...because even though that i recognize that addiction has nothing to do with the drugs or alcohol, they were merely a symptom, 90% of the people out there don't....and two people can be codependent on eachother...i've done it...it collapses REALLY fast...

SixFootMaster -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 6:07:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty and they are both fermented grapes that i can't drink because i am an addict... you obviously don't get it...but thats ok...because i don't expect you to be logical....i checked most of my logic requirements at the entrance to these boards... chelle I think this is more a case of a personal eccentricity, and resentment. You choose to see it as looking down on you, or decrying or rejecting your own position within the slave <---> submissive spectrum. It is not. There is no more value in one life than another, except in relativistic terms. To understand rarity, consider rolling a set of 6 sided die, and calculating the total. Lets say you have 3 die, you have only one possibly combination that will yield a 3, 1, 1 and 1. Likewise, you have only one possible combination that will yield an 18 - 6,6, and 6. Every number inbetween has increasing combinations that produce the same result. In the same way, the true natural slave (the 1,1, and 1), is a rare woman a very specific and exact psychology nature. So too is the natural submissive (6,6, and 6). The fact that 3 and 18 are exceptionally rare rolls does not decrease the value or legitimacy of any other numbers that come up.

RRafe -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 6:18:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I've always been against codependnece as a dynamic. Two weak people together do NOT equal one whole one. I'm really not picking on you personally, but this is one of my pet peeves. "Codependency" as a psychological condition is not being mutually dependent upon one another. It's when someone who has an addiction (drugs, alcohol, etc.) or other pathological condition manipulates those around them, often to provide the means to continue to fulfill their addiction (as in an "enabler"). It's a common misuse of the term. John actually John...you're making the term way too narrow with the use of the word "addiction"...a codependent person is anyone who enables the other person to be dependent on them...because even though that i recognize that addiction has nothing to do with the drugs or alcohol, they were merely a symptom, 90% of the people out there don't....and two people can be codependent on eachother...i've done it...it collapses REALLY fast... Exactly both are weak, and cannot stand on thier own-two rotten strctures don't equal one sound one-only a mingled ruin.

chellekitty -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 6:23:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster The fact that 3 and 18 are exceptionally rare rolls does not decrease the value or legitimacy of any other numbers that come up. i agree...but people have a tendency to use the words "true" and "natural" to put an inate greater than value on whatever follows those words when refering to people in this lifestyle...just because you and i do not, does not negate the fact that other's do...am i saying that i want it removed from everyone's vocabulary or to be only used properly....well sure, that would be great...as soon as i find who's in charge of this gigantic clusterfuck, i will talk to them about it...in the mean time...i talk to people one at a time and try to enlighten them to the errors of their way and if their minds are closed tighter than a (insert favorite tight wad joke here) i move along...sometimes it helps, a lot of the time it doesn't...as long as it doesn't cause a disruption in my life, i will continue doing it.... good day... chelle

lovewithoutfear -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 6:28:20 PM)
Thank you, SixFootMaster, for one of the most cogent explanations I've read in a long while of the differences in mastering a slave versus dominating a submissive. In reply to another's question, "breaking" is necessary even if the slave is willing, because it enables us to feel mastered and fulfilled. I don't know how else to say it, but SFM hit the nail on the head with his words about letting go of resistance to being. It is a fundamental and (dare I say) spiritual process. At least for me. SixFootMaster wrote: Submissives are Dominated, Slaves are Mastered, again, there's a difference and it corresponds to that difference between submissive and slave. Normally these distinctions don't matter, but since we are going into something very deep, and very dangerous, it is important to be clear of the roles and natures. Breaking doesn't require fear or force - leastwise not physical force. It requires patience, intense understanding, and dedication. It does frequently involve degrees of pain, since what is being induced is a final letting go of resistance to being, and transitioning to simply being, and this is happening at a fundemental level within the woman. It takes a great deal of care, and an intimate connection with the slave. However, as dangerous as it is, and as abhorrent as it might seem, for this rare woman, it is the only way in which she can truly be fulfilled. Breaking a submissive, yields an automaton, a dull lifeless and listless creature, and the act is an abomination.

Aswad -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 6:49:23 PM)
~fr~ This debate would benefit from people agreeing on the terms. There are things that can- and sometimes are- done, which would fit the term "breaking", or at least "breaking in." These are a lot of work, as LA pointed out, and should (IMO) proceed from the basic idea that one does not take apart what one cannot put together again, unless one is specifically looking to injure, harm or "kill," which is something generally frowned upon in most communities. Perhaps what some might mean is "tame," or "strip," or "condition," or something else. Some may refer to rebuilding a person by taking them down to the chassis, so to speak, and then build them back up. Some probably refer to the process of capture bonding, as seen with bride kidnapping and a multitude of other instances where relationships start out with force and lack of consent, yet end up elsewhere. To comment fruitfully on a question with few qualifiers is futile. Health, al-Aswad.

SixFootMaster -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 7:09:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad ~fr~ This debate would benefit from people agreeing on the terms. There are things that can- and sometimes are- done, which would fit the term "breaking", or at least "breaking in." These are a lot of work, as LA pointed out, and should (IMO) proceed from the basic idea that one does not take apart what one cannot put together again, unless one is specifically looking to injure, harm or "kill," which is something generally frowned upon in most communities. Perhaps what some might mean is "tame," or "strip," or "condition," or something else. Some may refer to rebuilding a person by taking them down to the chassis, so to speak, and then build them back up. Some probably refer to the process of capture bonding, as seen with bride kidnapping and a multitude of other instances where relationships start out with force and lack of consent, yet end up elsewhere. To comment fruitfully on a question with few qualifiers is futile. Health, al-Aswad. Perhaps, if I can elucidate further on the nature of breaking a slave. If you were to consider a slave, one of this natural nature, as a beautiful gem held within a hardened casing of earth (having visited and observed the gem fields at Broken Hill, this analogy is apt to me). The Master sees the beauty hidden away, but it is not free to shine fully in the light of his sun. He might grind away some of the dirt, or wash it, to reveal part of her nature, but still much is hidden away. Only when that rigid crust is truly sundered, is the gem inside revealed, and only in that sundering can she be fulfilled as the beautiful, radiant, exquiste woman that she is. It is not within her power to break the crust herself.

chellekitty -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 7:50:56 PM)
ok, now that we have the semantics out of the way...and i have heard definitions and analogies from people with some practical knowledge rather than just "theoretical" presumings (yes, it makes a huge difference)... from the slave side...this is something i have craved for years...not in the term of "breaking" but the principle of it, just the same...this is something i have talked about with my first owner...he refused to take that kind of responsibility, glad he did now, in hind site....very recently i talked to the matriarch of my leather household about doing this...she will not because i am not collared to her...and i can see her point...i trust her to do it and do it right...but to carry SFM's analogy on...what if she makes me into a round cut as per my instructions...and then with my eventual Master and Owner we decide for me to be a princess cut....so....yea...a job for him...not her...i think that makes sense...

Rover -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 8:11:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster In the same way, the true natural slave (the 1,1, and 1), is a rare woman a very specific and exact psychology nature. So too is the natural submissive (6,6, and 6). The fact that 3 and 18 are exceptionally rare rolls does not decrease the value or legitimacy of any other numbers that come up. I'm not a math major, but isn't the probability of rolling a 1, 1, and 1 or 6, 6 and 6 exactly the same as rolling any other combination of numbers? You're assigning a value (the total of the three rolled die) that has nothing whatsoever to do with the probability that the number will be rolled (ie: its rareity). Rather than numbers, the sides may as well picture fruits and the probability (rareity) will not change. Or am I missing something? John

chellekitty -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 8:15:03 PM)
only if you have loaded dice

sarahL -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 8:16:57 PM)
what does breaking a sub/slave entail?

SixFootMaster -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 8:31:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster In the same way, the true natural slave (the 1,1, and 1), is a rare woman a very specific and exact psychology nature. So too is the natural submissive (6,6, and 6). The fact that 3 and 18 are exceptionally rare rolls does not decrease the value or legitimacy of any other numbers that come up. I'm not a math major, but isn't the probability of rolling a 1, 1, and 1 or 6, 6 and 6 exactly the same as rolling any other combination of numbers? You're assigning a value (the total of the three rolled die) that has nothing whatsoever to do with the probability that the number will be rolled (ie: its rareity). Rather than numbers, the sides may as well picture fruits and the probability (rareity) will not change. Or am I missing something? John Statistics, John. The combinations can be mapped in a table, for instance, againast the total 1 1 1 = 3 1 1 2 = 4 1 1 3 = 5 1 1 4 = 6 1 1 5 = 7 1 1 6 = 8 1 2 1 = 4 1 2 2 = 5 1 2 3 = 6 1 2 4 = 7 1 2 5 = 8 1 2 6 = 9 1 3 1 = 5 1 3 2 = 6 1 3 3 = 7 1 3 4 = 8 1 3 5 = 9 1 3 6 = 10 And so forth Now, given that each combination has exactly the same chance to come up, we add the probabilities together for combinations that yield the same number: There are 6x6x6 = 216 possible combinations from three dice, therefore the chance of rolling a total of 3 is 1/216, but the chance of rolling a total of 6 , just from the table posted is 1/216 + 1/216 + 1/216 = 3/216 = 1/72. You see?

RRafe -> RE: Breaking a sub/slave? (10/23/2007 8:32:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sarahL what does breaking a sub/slave entail? It's a condtioning process, used to help a service oriented person to achieve thier potential. It takes quite some time to achieve, and should only be attempted by competent individuals-well versed in these dynamics. Not by dilletantes, who read bad pornography.[;)]

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