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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 7:53:34 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Happy researching!

Sinergy

I am so hoping he comes back with the asymmetrical warefare thing on my post that I am nearly pissing my pants.

Talk about some guffawing.

Ron



Don’t tell me that the pattern isn’t THAT obvious to you?

You know, this being the only thread that I’m participating on in this forum, this thread being one of the longest, still active, and my constantly coming back to provide counter rebuttals?

Still don’t get the hint?

Here, let me spell it out for you . . .


I’ve been posting here daily.  But even if I don’t get back with you, today, tonight, the next day, the next week, the next month, year, decade, life, etc, I will get back with you.  No matter how long it takes for me to get back with you.

Given my trend on this thread, it’s a no brainer that I’m going to get back with you. There’s no need for you to “hope” that I’ll be back. That’s like hoping that December 25 will be Christmas Day.

However, if you’re not patient with when I’ll return, there’s nothing stopping you from taking the time to read the basics of what I’m talking about. Click on the link and you’ll get 200 + pages worth of good reading.

Understand that I LOVE to argue in these threads. I wouldn’t have argued in a thread that got up to 220 + pages on the old Protest Warrior message board if that weren’t the case. And you needed more posts per page on that message board to make a thread page.


One of the things that make this fun is that I find people who, like me, have absolutely no intentions of changing their minds. That makes for a prolonged, perpetual, argument.

So don’t waste your time hoping that I’ll come back and answer your post. If you provide me a rebuttal, I’ll provide you a counter rebuttal--GUARANTEED.

< Message edited by herfacechair -- 11/8/2007 7:55:09 PM >


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 581
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 8:02:02 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

How many flaunt direct Security Council Resolutions? 


....as this is the one that supposedly gives a legal twist to the invasion of Iraq.......just how many nations do flaunt direct security council resolutions? How many countries flaunt direct rulings of the International Court? How many countries don't live up to the things they have signed up to in international accords and treaties?
........and of that long list (which, btw, includes the USA) how many nations have been invaded by the USA?

...additionally the list i gave out is not a list compiled from your conditions....it was compiled from HFC's list of conditions. All of those countries support either openly or covertly terrorists..or freedom fighters.....all depends on your politics. They all constitute a potential risk via the doctrine of assymetrical warfare. According to HFC's argument they are as much a threat as Iraq was to the USA.


NEGATIVE! That list doesn’t fit any of my “conditions.” Again, in case you skip this question from earlier:

Which country, out of those that you listed, meets ALL of the following criteria:

1.  Involved in a hot war with us within the past 18 years

2.  Violated a cease fire agreement with us with regards to weapons terrorists could use to wreck massive damage on our soil . . .

3.  Played cat and mouse games with the U.N. with the weapons mentioned in #2 . . .

4.  Invaded two of it’s neighbors within a 12 year span in the past 20 years . . .

5.  Gased its own people?


Find me a nation, out of your list, that meets ALL of those five criteria, and you’ll have a point.

And the fact that you’d turn around and say that we could use my reasoning to invade those countries speaks volumes of your lack of understanding of asymmetrical warfare, and of what I said.

Luckydog1 got it right with regards to what I was trying to say, and was right on the money when listing his criterion, which fit the asymmetrical warfare argument that I’ve been making on this thread as it applies to Iraq.

He understood most of what I was talking about, you didn’t. You didn’t even come anywhere near to understanding what I was saying.

You took what you THOUGHT I meant, and erroneously projected that to your scenario listing the above countries.

Your question about what nations flaunt UN Security Council resolutions is a red herring statement and deliberately misses the point behind the totality of the asymmetrical threat Saddam’s Iraq posed to us.

The fact that you’d list all those nations as “meeting” my asymmetrical argument with regards to Iraq speaks volumes of how you completely missed the point I was getting across.

I don’t recognize my conclusions in your post. And that’s because of the fact that you don’t understand what I’m arguing.

Go back and read the book in the link that I provided, then go back and read all the posts that I’ve made with the intentions of understanding what I’m saying.


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 582
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 8:05:43 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

WE don't flaunt rulings by the world court, we stormed out of that motherfucker when a couple decisions didn't go our way!!!!!!

This is from the actual 1441 resolution:
34.Decides to remain seized of the matter and to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area...

This of course is not our violating the will of the UN Security Council as Saddam did not as evidenced here:
http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Statements/2003/ebsp2003n006.shtml
since as a permanant member of the council, if we veto a vote, regardless of who votes against us, including the other permanant members, there is no resolution.

So what kind of lies are you spreading now?

LOLOLOLOLOL,
Ron





Ron


What you have listed above lists things that couldn’t be practically covered in the resolution.

From the actual text of resolution 1441:


http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/15016.htm

2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the Council;

HMM, what could these past obligations entail? From the same link:

Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,

Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council’s repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,

Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,

Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,

Read that last one AGAIN. A ceasefire contingent on accepting the provisions of applicable resolutions, which it FAILED to do, as evidenced by the preceding paragraphs.

Violation of a cease fire agreement. A cease fire, by the way, isn’t a declaration of peace, but war “put on hold”. If one side violates its terms, the other side has the right to resume hostilities.

Now, check this out, from the same link:


13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

Saddam’s Iraq continued with these violations, and he suffered the consequences. THAT simple.



_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 583
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 8:08:41 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
I back that sentry 100%, he had every right to do what he did. His job is to make sure that nobody with hostile intentions gets past his checkpoint.

Had the situation been reversed, and that journalist been in the other guy’s shoes as a soldier, he to would’ve held people up whose credentials he didn’t know or trust.

Nobody is going to carry a sign on themselves reading hostile, it’s up to the sentries to make that determination.

Even if the guy trying to gain entry was the son of a former president . . . if the sentry doesn’t know who that person is, or what his organization is, that sentry has every right to question the credentials that he’s being presented.

The journalist was right in that he had clearance to enter. But you can’t blame the sentry, who didn’t get word of this guys’ access. He should’ve blamed his leadership for not coordinating his access with security.

Again, one has to put themselves in the sentry’s shoes. These guys know people, doing the same thing they’re currently doing, who got blown up by suicide bombers. Or got shot and killed.

For all this sentry is concerned, this person might be getting frustrated that he’s not going to bomb something real soon.

There’s a good chance that this sentry was thinking of a time when people looking like Americans successfully got past the guards and attacked Americans inside the base. The question about the driver’s license may have been an attempt to make sure this wasn’t a repeat.

Many of these sentries get a butt load of BS stories from people trying to get in. If someone slips past him, and they have hostile intentions, it’s either his life, or his comrades further back. Dereliction of duty that results in deaths isn’t something that anybody wants to experience. Their nagging conscience isn’t the only thing that’s going to be in their future should something like that happen.

That guy was right with regards to his “clearance” to enter, but the sentry was right not to let the person in based on what he thought were questionable credentials. Anybody could make those claims, make fake I.D. cards, and create phony paperwork.


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 584
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 8:11:46 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

Original: herfacechair
Nixon finally turned around and applied the military solution. This forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table.


RED HERRING

Interesting point.

So when Nixon forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table (feel free to refresh me when and where this peace table was set up and the negotiations took place) what terms did Nixon force the North Vietnamese to accept?

Sinergy

RED HERRING


That’s BESIDE the point, a red herring on two fronts.

First, this argument, where you got that quote from, is about using the military as an insurance that an agreement is fallowed through.

Second, peace table is an expression describing people getting together to negotiate peace terms. You’re nit picking petty BS that has nothing to do with the argument.

My argument emphasized what Nixon had up his sleeve considering that he rightfully didn’t trust communists. What he would’ve used if they refused to abide by the agreement. Again, emphasizing my point that without military backing, an agreement at the other end of the war isn’t worth the piece of paper it’s printed on.


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 585
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 8:14:24 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
been out of town, and oh, this'll be hell to edit....

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy
Do you believe the same about vampires & werewolves? That the lack of evidence does not constitute lack of existence?
(clipped)

As for some of the proof of WMD given before, those chemical weapons were determined to be created before the 1991 invasion. But that news was always days or weeks later, and not on the first page.

Remember the portable bio lab, that had evidence of urea in a tank (with the wrong configuration for a bio lab)? It was a plant to generate gas for balloons (helium, I believe) just like our own US Army's. And the urea, as one Iraqi put it, was due to those "stupid guys peeing in the tanks!".

I'd sign off like Ron, but I'm not a true conservative.... more of a middle-of-the road in the scheme of things.

Thornhappy


An analogy should have something to do with the discussion, or relate to it. Yours doesn’t.

My point strictly has to do with the "lack of evidence....etc." argument.  And it's been noted by many that there were obsolete, degraded stores of chemical weapons left from the first war. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
Now, on your statement about surveillance that we did. 

We had plenty more than satellites conducting surveillance....

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
It was an Iraqi that knew about these locations that told us about them. We were even operating right next to one of these sites.

The same guy who said there was a chem/bio center under Baghdad's biggest hospital? (wrong).  And another who said that the accuracy of the WMD stories didn't matter, only that the US had removed Saddam from power?  (Both stories ran on NPR.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
To argue that these weapons were from before the 1991 invasion is to throw another red herring in.

Hardly - it goes as to whether he had an active WMD program.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
Chemical and biological decontamination isn’t something that’s top secret, people in the military learn how to conduct chemical decontamination. The Iraqis had the advantage of calling more advanced decontamination in from the civilian side of the house.

This is pretty amazing - not only did the portable "lab" not resemble anything like the chem/bio guys said it should, now you're saying it was decontaminated?  Damn.  This is amazing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
I don’t buy the “people trying to pee in the tanks” story. Nor do I buy the BS that they were just a plant to generate gas for balloons. Both of those explanations smell of deception.

Jaysus, fellow, sometimes a cigar is really a cigar, and not deception.

And one of the simplest explanations of the whole WMD mess is that it was Saddam posturing to keep his neighbors off his back, and  persuade us not to fuck with him.  A major understatement on his part, eh?


quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
Again, under asymmetrical warfare, a bunch of tubes could be used for something we wouldn’t use them for, and a plant “to generate gas for balloons” could be used as a bio lab.

Again, that material was not suitable for centrifuges, but really really just the perfect thing for rockets - as the scientists would say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
And I don’t buy into the BS that true conservatives sign off with their real names. A true conservative proves to be a true conservative by his or her actions, not by signing of with their name.

Man, that's coming in from out of the blue.  I was referring to his signoff "a true conservative", not the use of his name - he's signed off with his name a lot prior to this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair
Who doesn’t want to be seen as being in the middle of the road? Read the book, “Bias,” you’ll see the author’s explanation as to how people thinking that they’re “middle of the road” naturally bleed bias into their programs.

Be so kind as to not tell me my beliefs.  The hard core republicans would burn me at the stake.  Hard core leftists would want no part of me.  So I'm left as a moderate, by my defininition, not yours.

Further debate will be useless, I fear.
thornhappy

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 586
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 8:20:37 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If the US doesn't obey the NPT, why should anyone else?





quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If the US doesn't obey the NPT, why should anyone else?


That’s a red herring statement that tries to find equivalency between two unrelated things.



Actually, the issue is "From exactly what "Moral High Ground" can the US possibly criticize anyone w.r.t. the NPT, Given it's dodgy record regarding Article VI?[1]

[1] "negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament"; "Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control".


quote:


How about answering my new questions, as well as questions I’ve asked you earlier in this thread? Still waiting for your answers, simply copy and paste the questions and select the option that represents your answers.

As long as you’re going to participate on this thread, I’m going to be expecting answers to those questions. [/color]


What else can be said, except "Get used to disappointment."

What YOU expect doesn't fucking matter a whole lot, does it?

Pay close attention. because this is important.

IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.

I was asking a rhetorical question to the board-at-large.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/8/2007 8:27:13 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 587
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 8:26:03 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

Original: herfacechair
Nixon finally turned around and applied the military solution. This forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table.


RED HERRING

Interesting point.

So when Nixon forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table (feel free to refresh me when and where this peace table was set up and the negotiations took place) what terms did Nixon force the North Vietnamese to accept?

Sinergy

RED HERRING


That’s BESIDE the point, a red herring on two fronts.

First, this argument, where you got that quote from, is about using the military as an insurance that an agreement is fallowed through.

Second, peace table is an expression describing people getting together to negotiate peace terms. You’re nit picking petty BS that has nothing to do with the argument.

My argument emphasized what Nixon had up his sleeve considering that he rightfully didn’t trust communists. What he would’ve used if they refused to abide by the agreement. Again, emphasizing my point that without military backing, an agreement at the other end of the war isn’t worth the piece of paper it’s printed on.



Nixon wouldn't have known a Communist if they were spray painted pink and allowed to grow bamboo on the White House lawn.  The so-called Communist revolution which McCarthy and his ilk feared would come about never got past the stage (its either 1 or 2) where the means of production are co-opted by the state.  Russia and China had historical antipathies going back thousands of years, had different ideas of what it meant to be Communist, and were a non-threat to US policies.

If you were attempting to examplify the concept that an agreement not backed by military force was not worth the paper it was written on, you picked the worst example of this in the 20th Century.  Not the least because the US did not have any treaties since the country was divided, and certainly none that coincided with the war ending.

The only reason Nixon carpet bombed Vietnam was to withdraw our troops while appearing the victor to the US electorate; effectively killing two stones with one bird and ensuring his reelection.

thompsonx put it best; Nixon bombed Vietnam to force an agreement that they would not shoot us as we fled their country in disgrace after an expensive boondoggle predicated on fallacious reasoning by high ranking members of the US Government going back to the mid 1950s.

Seems odd that a country like Vietnam, so anti-US as you claim them to be, would sue our government 2-3 years after we left to reopen diplomatic relations.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 588
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/8/2007 10:23:48 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
Guys, you are taking this girl WAY to seriously.  I think she is just making this shit up to fuck with all of us.  I mean come on, nobody could actually believe this stuff!  Look at how goofy this list is, someone is pulling our leg with a practical joke.


quote:

NEGATIVE! That list doesn’t fit any of my “conditions.” Again, in case you skip this question from earlier:

Which country, out of those that you listed, meets ALL of the following criteria:

1.  Involved in a hot war with us within the past 18 years

 
18 years?  Come on, why not include all the dipshit wars of Raygun?  Again, this is so stupid it has to be a joke.


2.  Violated a cease fire agreement with us with regards to weapons terrorists could use to wreck massive damage on our soil . . .

WTF?  Seriously, who writes this poorly?  We had a cease fire with Iraq but GWI wasn't about WMD so that isn't it.  No proof Saddam would ever have given WMD to anyone else, and besides, why would Saddam risk allowing a stateless group to use his weapons on the US so that they couldn't be targets but he would be?  Even Saddam wasn't that stupid although it seems Bush might be.  Who votes for she was trying to say "a country that had WMD they might give to terrorists violated a "cease fire agreement' involving us flying OVER their country? 

3.  Played cat and mouse games with the U.N. with the weapons mentioned in #2 . . .

Again, Republican's hate the UN and the concern here for the UN is just heartbreaking and exposes the real author as a bleeding heart liberal, I wonder who it is?  Most of the liberals that post here write better so it is either someone playing a moron or someone who doesn't post often?

4.  Invaded two of it’s neighbors within a 12 year span in the past 20 years . . .

See, more hints this isn't real.  Above the standard is 18, now it is 20.  Even KY has more integrity than this which is why I don't believe these are real posts.  The US has invaded all of its neighbors and most of the nearby countries at one point or another.  Is she talking about Israel, no, they invaded more than that.   Besides, what's wrong with invading anyway, we just did two ME countries and are working on our third and some want to do four if you count Syria.  I think this is meant as brilliant satire and I wasn't bright enough to see through it earlier.

5.  Gased its own people?


More proof that this is sarcasm.  Pointing out how Bush Sr. betrayed the Kurds last time and Bush jr. is about to screw them again?  I can't be the only person who sees the deliberate irony here.  Besides considering how high the death toll of civilians has been and the indifference show by the Bush worshipers, this is again using irony to point out the hypocrisy over the hand-wringing over gassing Iraqis all while ignoring civilian deaths is quite brilliant.  This person should write for the Daily Show!

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 589
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 5:21:25 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

First, read the entire book that the link leads you to. Read it more than once if you have to. Then, go back to my replies and read them in their entirety.

Had you done that in the first place, you wouldn’t have come up with that conclusion. Your question, asking if it’s “entirely based,” is nothing but a red herring.


You didn’t even come anywhere NEAR my position. Again, something that would’ve been alleviated had you read the book the link I gave you leads to, as well as my posts, with the intentions of understanding what was being said.

The Federal Government translated it for study. That should speak volumes. If you go through and read what’s in that link, and read through my posts, listen to what people carrying out the fight against us, and their enablers, are saying, and so on, you’ll see that what those two colonels wrote is very applicable to what’s going on today.

READ the book in that link before knocking it, “diminishing” it, or trying to cast doubts on it. Your attitude toward the book in that link isn’t intellectually healthy.
 


You have a problem somewhere in your reading comprehension, and I am just going to point out a few quotes from this book that directly contradicts your blatherings about it and some of the positions you have adamantly held and also had no less gall than to put the retarded rush limbaugh ridicule on me and others for, while this will not be an entire compendium, and will not cause you to take a different position, it will cause many of the people to laugh at anything you espouse. Kinda like the PR guy for Saddams Regime.

But before I do; regarding technical space, I commented that when china took a good old everyday missile  and knocked an american sattelite out of the sky, I said KU.........somebody out here said we aint guatemala. Yesterday a high ranking titular politician in china  (that has nothing to do with monetary policy)  said that they were going to invest deeply in other currencies than greenbacks, and dumped it pretty bad against the euro, I said KU.  Anyways the ideas in the book are nothing new, and in fact the greatest part of it is very very old.  At the end of the book there are seven or so re caps of lessons learned that should be incorporated into any future warplans -- one of these was asymmetrical war (which is definitely not what we are figting in Iraq, because it is all about borders).  Nevertheless, you skipped the chapters dealing with the additive properties of war tactics.  Here is just a blurb for you:
  
Up to this point, we have already found the reason, beginning from the appearance of "high tech" on stage, that this military revolution has slowly been unable to be completed. From the perspectives of human history and the history of warfare, there has never been one military revolution which was declared to have been completed merely after technology or organizational revolutions. Only after signifying the appearance of this revolution of military thought with the
highest achievement will the entire process of the military revolution be finalized. This time is no exception so that whether or not the new military revolution brought about by high technology can bring it to a final conclusion depends on whether it can travel far upon the road of the revolution of military thought. It is only this one time that it needs to jump outside of the ruts made by the war spirit that has persisted for several thousand years.To accomplish this, it is only necessary to be able to seek help from addition. However, prior to utilizing addition, it must go beyond all of the fetters of politics, history, culture, and ethics and carry out thorough thought. Without thorough thought, there can be no thorough revolution.
 
Another little hint, Sun Zi and Sun Tzu are the same feller.
 
Anyway, as Carl von Clauswitz (quoted in your pamphlet) has said: "War is nothing but a continuation of politics by other means."  So here you go, from your intense study of this pamplet, here are a few excerpts which directly contradict your supposed research and reality, I will leave the matching up of your untruths to these quotes as an exercise to the reader....   


Page2:

Published prior to the bombing of China's embassy in Belgrade, the book has recently drawn the attention of both the Chinese and Western press for its advocacy of a multitude of means,

The United States breaks [UN rules] and makes new ones when these rules don't suit [its purposes], but it has to observe its own rules or the whole world will not trust it.

Page 22:
Viewed from the performance of the U.S. military in Somalia, where they were at a loss when they encountered Aidid's forces, the most modern military force does not have the ability to control public clamor, and cannot deal with an opponent who does things in an unconventional manner. On the battlefields of the future, the digitized forces may very possibly be like a great cook who is good at cooking lobsters sprinkled with butter, when faced with guerrillas who resolutely gnaw corncobs, they can only sigh in despair.

Looking at the specific examples of battles that we have, it is difficult for high-tech troops
to deal with unconventional warfare and low-tech warfare, and perhaps there is a rule here, or at least it is an interesting phenomenon which is worth studying.

Page 24:
However, the Americans are not necessarily in the sole lead in everything. The new concepts of weapons, which came after the weapons of new concepts and which cover a wider area, were a natural extension of this. However, the Americans have not been able to get their act together in this area. This is because proposing a new concept of weapons does not require relying on the springboard of new technology, it just demands lucid and incisive thinking. However, this is not a strong point of the Americans, who are slaves to technology in their thinking. The Americans invariably halt their thinking at the boundary where technology has not yet reached.

Page 32:
Navy Lieutenant Robert Guerli [as published 0657 1422 0448] proposed that "the seven areas of misunderstanding with regard to information warfare are: (1) the overuse of analogous methods; (2) exaggerating the threat; (3) overestimating one's own strength; (4) historical relevance and accuracy; (5) avoiding criticism of anomalous attempts; (6) totally unfounded assumptions; and (7) nonstandard definitions." (U.S., Events magazine, Sep 97 issue).

Page 34:
However, Orgakov's foresight and wisdom with regard to the issue of a revolution in military affairs ran aground because of structural problems. "If, in keeping up with the extremely high costs of the revolution in military affairs, a country exceeds the limits that can be borne by its system and material conditions, but it keeps engaging in military power contests with its opponents, the only outcome can be that they will fall further behind with regard to the military forces that they can use. This was the fate of Russia during the czarist and Soviet eras: the Soviet Union undertook military burdens that were difficult to bear, while in turn the military was unwilling to accept the need for strategic retrenchment."

Page 57:
1. For more on the close relationship between Iraq and the U.S., the reader may refer to Desert Warrior: A Personal View of the Gulf War by the Joint Forces Commander, Junshi Yiwen  Publishing House, p. 212. "Iraq had established extremely close relations with the United States. Iraq had received weapons and valuable intelligence regarding Iranian movements from the U.S., as well as U.S. military support for attacks on Iran's navy."

Page 59:
12. There was an article entitled "Financial Markets are the Biggest Threat to Peace" in the
August 23, 1998, issue of the Los Angeles Times. The article noted: "At present, financial
markets constitute the biggest threat to world peace, not terrorist training camps." (See Reference News, Beijing, September 7, 1998.)

Pages 183 – 184:
Only a fool like Saddam Hussein would seek to fulfill his own wild ambition by outright territorial occupation. Facts make it clear that acting in this way in the closing years of the 20th Century is clearly behind the times, and will certainly lead to defeat. Also pursuing its national security and national interests, as a mature great power the United States appeared much smarter than Iraq. Since the day they stepped onto the international stage, the Americans have been seizing things by force or by trickery, and the benefits they obtained from other countries were many times greater than anyone knows than what Iraq got from Kuwait. The reasons cannot be explained as merely "might makes right," and they are not just a problem of an evasion of international norms and vetoes.












< Message edited by mnottertail -- 11/9/2007 5:59:26 AM >


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 590
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 8:48:14 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Red Herring

(defined as anything she can't grasp or can't counter)

Just thought I would be a gentleman and post her response for her.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 591
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 9:26:21 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

I don’t recognize my conclusions in your post. And that’s because of the fact that you don’t understand what I’m arguing.



...or possibly i do understand them and have rejected both your conclusions and most, if not all, of your premises.

You come across, consistently, as some sort of cold war warrior, desperate to find a new ideological enemy to have proxy wars with for a few decades. So, are you really one of the producers of James Bond trying out a few ideas to see who'll swallow them?

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 592
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 11:42:12 AM   
GoddessDustyGold


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From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Guys, you are taking this girl WAY to seriously. 


FYI...this poster is male.  herfacechair is "HER FACE CHAIR"
Just wanted to clear that up.
Back to the discussion I am enjoying immensely! 

_____________________________

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They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 11:50:27 AM   
mnottertail


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I was aware of that and thought that some of his problem could be as a result of oxygen starvation in the brain due to constant queening, but did not want to cast aspersions on his seating arrangements.

Duncan Hines

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 594
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 8:26:10 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

Nixon finally turned around and applied the military solution. This forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table.



Interesting point.

So when Nixon forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table (feel free to refresh me when and where this peace table was set up and the negotiations took place) what terms did Nixon force the North Vietnamese to accept?

Sinergy

Sinergy:
He got them to agree that if we left Viet Nam they would quit shooting at us.
thompson


No. He carried Operation Linebacker II out to force the North Vietnamese back to the bargaining table.

The North Vietnamese have been in negotiations with us. But when they saw that congress had every intentions of cutting funds from the Vietnam War, the North Vietnamese decided that they didn’t want to talk anymore.

Nixon, in a last ditch effort to get them to the negotiation discussions, ordered a massive bombing campaign. It worked, the North Vietnamese agreed to come back to the negotiating table.

The North Vietnamese would’ve gladly stopped firing at us if they knew that we were willing to retreat without negotiating. Heck, they wouldn’t be able to shoot at us if we left Vietnam.

If anything, the North Vietnamese wanted our side to stop shooting them. Can’t blame them considering that they were on the ropes.


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 8:28:16 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

Nixon finally turned around and applied the military solution. This forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table.



Interesting point.

So when Nixon forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table (feel free to refresh me when and where this peace table was set up and the negotiations took place) what terms did Nixon force the North Vietnamese to accept?

Sinergy

Sinergy:
He got them to agree that if we left Viet Nam they would quit shooting at us.
thompson


So dropping more explosives on Vietnam than had ever been dropped in all wars to that point COMBINED was money well spent.

Sweet!

Sinergy


Considering that it had them on the ropes, and subsequently lead to their going to the “negotiating table,” yes.

_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

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Profile   Post #: 596
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 8:30:26 PM   
herfacechair


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Sinergy:
I do not know how you got there from what I said.  I am pretty sure I am on record as to my opinion of the conflict in Viet Nam. 
thompson
 


I got that, thompsonx.  I have always enjoyed reading your posts.

I thought we were tag teaming on the person pontificating wet-dreamily about Nixon forcing those damn Viet Cong to the negotiating table.

Sorry for the confusion.

Sinergy


You’re taking me out of context, what I said:

“He drastically reduced troop numbers, reduced the section of the budget dedicated to the Vietnam War, and commenced bombing the day lights out of North Vietnam. It got to the point to where the North had no other choice but to come to the peace table to negotiate an end.” -herfacechair

“Nixon finally turned around and applied the military solution. This forced the North Vietnamese to the peace table.” -herfacechair

“Thanks to a democratically controlled congress pulling the rug from the South Vietnamese, and curtailing further military actions, (Nixon’s trump cards), they fell.” -herfacechair

After that bombing, they were ready to talk. 

Don’t mistake my refusing to embrace revised history as my “pontificating”.


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

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Profile   Post #: 597
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 8:34:27 PM   
herfacechair


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thornhappy: My point strictly has to do with the "lack of evidence....etc." argument.

And your point constituted an apples to oranges comparison. Unlike your vampire example, WMD’S were used in the past, and sarin was discovered post invasion.

Meaning, unlike your “vampires”, I was talking about something that actually existed. You were comparing fictional beings to actual weapons.

Having said that, my standard of proof applied. Not sighting evidence isn’t the same thing as non existence.


thornhappy: And it's been noted by many that there were obsolete, degraded stores of chemical weapons left from the first war.

Would you eat out of those “degraded” chemical weapon’s containers? YES [   ] NO [   ]

Simply copy and paste that statement to your reply, and place an “X” in the applicable response.

Again, whether that’s from before 1991, or something from this century. The fact of the matter is that IT WAS THERE.

This proves wrong those who claimed that Iraq had “no” WMD. And it proves their argument that the inspections were “effective”, as an attempt to explain the need for the invasion away.


thornhappy: We had plenty more than satellites conducting surveillance....

Doesn’t matter, unlike the movies, our satellite and other surveillance assets aren’t infallible, and they’re not without weaknesses. They’re not something that has an entire country, pebble by pebble, under watch. You have to selectively zoom, or direct your assets, to an area.

Meaning, there’s plenty of opportunity for the enemy to take advantage of our surveillance “blinds spots” and do things.


thornhappy: The same guy who said there was a chem/bio center under Baghdad's biggest hospital? (wrong). And another who said that the accuracy of the WMD stories didn't matter, only that the US had removed Saddam from power? (Both stories ran on NPR.) RED HERRING

No, we’re not talking about the same guy. If you bothered reading what you quoted, I was talking about a guy in Iraq, after we’ve invaded. An Iraqi informed our military that there was a site with buried equipment nearby. And sure thing, they uncovered this site and found earth digging equipment in one area. In another area, they found migs.

The guy’s providing that information either lived or worked near those areas.

What that Iraqi guy reported checked. Yet, not one of the surveillance assets you talked about informed us about those buried equipment.

Second, those two Iraqis don’t represent all the Iraqis that gave us information before the invasion. Applying what a few Iraqis said, that was wrong, to the entire group of Iraqis that gave us information is intellectually dishonest at worst, wishful thinking at best.

There are Iraqis that stand by their statements to this day.


thornhappy: Hardly - it goes as to whether he had an active WMD program. RED HERRING

WRONG. The argument isn’t about whether they had an active program or not. The argument is about whether Saddam’s Iraq had WMD’S or not. The other side of the argument are saying, “NO” WMD.

My side of the argument is saying he did have WMD. The discovery of the sarin gas proves my side of the argument right, and the other side of the argument wrong about whether Iraq had WMD or not. Period, “end of discussion.”

Any attempt to tap dance those findings speaks volumes about the people that refuse to see the significance of the sarin find.

What you did here was use a red herring to defend another red herring statement.


thornhappy: This is pretty amazing - not only did the portable "lab" not resemble anything like the chem/bio guys said it should, now you're saying it was decontaminated? Damn. This is amazing.

Again, you’re going to have to quit assuming that these people think like us. And you’re going to have to quit seeing this war the way you’d see a “traditional” one where things are “clear cut and well defined.”

You have to think outside the box when utilizing asymmetrical warfare.

And I’m doing that based on both my experiences in the military as well as my experiences traveling and living in overseas countries. You’d be surprised at how resourceful people in third world countries could be. This includes their ability to use things for purposes that aren’t remotely close to what they were intended for.

And, under asymmetrical warfare, something as simple as a vehicle used for “balloons” can become a lab. Then decontaminated and reconfigured to remove incrimination.

The fact that you’d sarcastically say, “that’s amazing” makes you one of the people the two Chinese Colonels were talking about when they indicated that these warfare concepts are beyond one’s “frequency bandwidth”.


thornhappy: Jaysus, fellow, sometimes a cigar is really a cigar, and not deception.

Tell that to Castro. Pardon me if I think with a wartime mindset, seeing things through asymmetrical warfare, and anticipating how the enemy would do things in the face of the constraints they face.

thornhappy: And one of the simplest explanations of the whole WMD mess is that it was Saddam posturing to keep his neighbors off his back, and persuade us not to fuck with him. A major understatement on his part, eh?

NO.

If he truly didn’t have WMD’S, if he truly didn’t want the world to mess with him, and he truly wanted the sanctions lifted, he would’ve lead the UN by the fingers to all of his WMD and WMD related sites. He would’ve fought tooth and nail to get within compliance.

We would’ve seen one glowing report after another about how Saddam was complying with UN resolutions. But he didn’t.

His coming clean would’ve accomplished the same thing you talk about with less the pain and effort.


thornhappy: Again, that material was not suitable for centrifuges, but really really just the perfect thing for rockets - as the scientists would say.

Again, you have to quit assuming that their scientists and engineers think like western scientists and engineers. Especially given the sanctions that were in place. People in third world countries are resourceful when using things, not intended for certain purposes, for those purposes anyway. If they were going to use those tubes for centrifuges, they were going to make that attempt.

Allot of the things they’ve found when they started the reconstruction was the countless examples of Iraqis using things less advanced than what the west was using for the same purposes. In many of these cases, these items weren’t even intended for the uses they were being used for.


thornhappy: Man, that's coming in from out of the blue. I was referring to his signoff "a true conservative", not the use of his name - he's signed off with his name a lot prior to this.

I’m getting the sense that people are saying that a “true conservative” signs off with their names. That logically doesn’t make sense.

If that’s not the case, then see that as my disagreeing with any statement that claims that the guy is a true conservative.


thornhappy: Be so kind as to not tell me my beliefs.

And be so kind as not to assume that you land in the political center. It wouldn’t surprise me if most everybody that posts here thinks that way.

thornhappy: The hard core republicans would burn me at the stake. Hard core leftists would want no part of me. So I'm left as a moderate, by my defininition, not yours.

I’ve debated with allot of liberals, who’ve identified themselves as such, that argued your points here. Meaning, by both their definition and mine, you’re left of center. You’d find friends with many on the left, especially the hard core who’d cheer your recent posts.

And speaking of wanting to be “moderate” by one’s definition. Yeah. Kind of like most the journalists identifying themselves as being in the middle, yet vote democrat in larger percentages than the general public, and have more hard liberal stances than the real moderates.

Kind of like that congressman, far left Democrat, who had the nerve to call a couple people “liberals”.

Again, my rhetorical question stands. Who doesn’t want to be seen as being “in the middle” of the road?


thornhappy: Further debate will be useless, I fear.

Right before you got to those pestering questions.  

_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 598
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 8:35:44 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

RED HERRING
Actually, the issue is "From exactly what "Moral High Ground" can the US possibly criticize anyone w.r.t. the NPT, Given it's dodgy record regarding Article VI?[1]

[1] "negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament"; "Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control".

RED HERRING


And I stand by my statement. You’re advancing a red herring argument, trying to find moral equivalency where there’s none.

We’re arguing about the War on Terrorism, not about nuclear disarmament. If you want to talk about that topic, start a new thread and debate the issue.

We’re talking about the asymmetrical threat posed by Saddam and his refusal to come clean with his WMD, and our subsequent invasion of his country to remove him as an asymmetrical threat.

We’re arguing about the possibility that, left unchecked, someone might wind up with his WMD and using it against us.

You’re making an apples and oranges comparison. Especially when WMD also includes chemical and biological agents.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

What else can be said, except "Get used to disappointment."

What YOU expect doesn't fucking matter a whole lot, does it?

Pay close attention. because this is important.

IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.

I was asking a rhetorical question to the board-at-large.


Answering the questions would’ve been easier than saying all of that.

Do I get “disappointed” when you fail to answer my questions? NO. Your avoiding those questions supports what I said, and speaks volumes about the faith you put in your own argument.

And I just love reminding you, and your conscience, of that.

This is one of the reasons I’m going to continue to challenge you to answer my questions. This has nothing to do with things being “about me”. It has everything to do with the validity of your arguments in this thread.

I ask you a simple, straightforward question. And you avoid it.

The fact is that you can’t answer those questions, per directions, without proving your entire premise on this thread wrong. And like most people, you ignore those questions hoping that I’d forget I asked them, or simply move on and forget about those questions.

As for your rhetorical question, it was a red herring statement. There’s no comparison between the United States and Iraq under Saddam. Letting Saddam have powerful weapons is like giving a gun to a kid.


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 599
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/9/2007 8:38:25 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
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Sinergy: Nixon wouldn't have known a Communist if they were spray painted pink and allowed to grow bamboo on the White House lawn.

Learn to recognize the facts before assuming whether someone would know what a communist was or not. The reality is that Nixon knew what a communist was, what they believed in and what they embraced.

Unless you’re talking about seeing someone, without identifying marks, without that person saying anything, as communist. If that’s the case, I applaud your noticing something obvious about all humans, as I doubt you’d be able to identify a communist, or a terrorist for that matter, without that person having identifying articles, marks, or that person saying anything.


Sinergy:  The so-called Communist revolution which McCarthy and his ilk feared

McCarthy’s issue was the extent of Soviet Espionage in this country.  In the 1990s, the Venona cables became declassified, and substantiated his suspicions.

And yes, the Soviets were pumping money into the communist party of the US as well as other fronts to try to undermine our system and replace it with a socialistic one.

Soviet Defectors have confirmed this. 


Sinergy:  would come about never got past the stage (its either 1 or 2) where the means of production are co-opted by the state.  

Actually, the communists gave up on that concept even during McCarthy’s time. They knew that it’d be impractical to get the state, or the people, to capture the means of production.

They couldn’t get an overnight transition here.

They found another way to undermine the US, and this new approach, still present, is a slower transition, a gradual increase in our government’s socialistic nature. Just look at the Democratic Party, and where they’re trending.

Heck, the Chinese donated to the Clinton Administration. The same Chinese General that insinuated that LA would go up in a Mushroom Cloud handing Johnny Chung (?) a campaign contribution with the statement, “We like your president, we hope he wins”.

Many people on the left argue that we should be like the Europeans. Former members of the politburo are looking at what Europe has, their social policies, economic policies and their EU form of “government”, and are applauding that as what the Soviets tried to achieve.

They decided to introduce and stoke something that’ll be gradual, and grow so slowly that the general public wouldn’t notice it until it’s too late. The ideological battle is still raging. Just look at the arguments presented by many on the far left, and you’ll see something that brings us closer to socialism.


Sinergy:  Russia and China had historical antipathies going back thousands of years, had different ideas of what it meant to be Communist, and were a non-threat to US policies.

Non threat to US policies?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837232-2,00.html

Excerpt:

1. “What about interdicting Russian and Chinese supplies to Hanoi by closing North Viet Nam’s ports, notably Haiphong?”

As you were saying?

They may not have agreed with each other on certain issues, but that didn’t stop them from working together against our interests in other areas. The Soviets and the Chinese were working together to expand communist influence throughout the world.

No threat to us? I beg to differ, they were a threat to us. Even former members of their politburo admitted to that, vindicating the Republicans that argued that they were a danger.

And whatever their histories were before this time, it’s a red herring when talking about 20th century communism.


Sinergy:  If you were attempting to examplify the concept that an agreement not backed by military force was not worth the paper it was written on, you picked the worst example of this in the 20th Century. Not the least because the US did not have any treaties since the country was divided, and certainly none that coincided with the war ending.

I picked a perfect example. Nixon was out of office before he could resume the bombing, and congress cuffed his successor. Without the threat of continued bombings, with congress cutting the South Vietnamese government off at the knees, nothing stopped the North from violating its terms of the treaty:

http://www.aiipowmia.com/sea/ppa1973.html

Go ahead, scroll to the bottom of the document. One of them was the United States. As far as not having something that coinciding with the war ending, read the top. Our military involvement with the war ended in 1973. Had congress kept the South Vietnamese funded, we’d still have two Vietnams. A flourishing Democracy in the south, and a communist one in the North. And we wouldn’t be having this talk about the war ending in 1975.

Simply put, the North Violated the treaty,
creating a condition that would’ve required another treaty to end. Without the military will to bomb the crap out of the North Vietnamese when they did that, and thus keeping things within the original treaty’s framework, the North had free reign to continue violating their end of the bargain.

Ignoring the fact that it was North Vietnam’s violation of the Peace accords that extended hostilities beyond that treaty is nothing but a red herring statement. The fact of the matter is that we had an agreement, we didn’t have the military will to back that agreement, and it subsequently failed.

That’s what I’ve been arguing, and that’s precisely what happened with the case with Vietnam.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
The only reason Nixon carpet bombed Vietnam was to withdraw our troops while appearing the victor to the US electorate; effectively killing two stones with one bird and ensuring his reelection.

thompsonx put it best; Nixon bombed Vietnam to force an agreement that they would not shoot us as we fled their country in disgrace after an expensive boondoggle predicated on fallacious reasoning by high ranking members of the US Government going back to the mid 1950s.


WRONG:

http://web.mit.edu/ssp/seminars/wed_archives_02fall/michel.htm

Excerpt:

1.  “First, let's look at Linebacker II. Occurring during December 18-29, 1972, Linebacker II is often cited as a case study in the successful application of coercion using airpower. However, as we'll see, this campaign, while in many ways successful, flirted with disaster.”

When were the elections? November 1972 perhaps? Now, check the date for that operation.

For your theory to work, he wouldn’t even have applied this tactic after he got re-elected.


http://web.mit.edu/ssp/seminars/wed_archives_02fall/michel.htm

“Following President Nixon's reelection, the Senate made clear that funding for further operations in Vietnam would be cut off when they returned in mid-January 1973. The North Vietnamese leadership was aware of the US political situation and this, combined with the collapse of the October 1972 cease fire agreement, made the North Vietnamese decide there was no reason to negotiate further with the US. Given the stalemate with the North Vietnamese and looming Congressional action, President Nixon decided to order a massive air campaign in a final attempt force the North Vietnamese to sign an acceptable peace agreement.”

Read that whole excerpt, then read that last sentence again. That’s NOT him trying to look good in front of the electorate. That’s him being practical, given the constraints he was facing.

That’s NOT him doing that so that they won’t shoot us. In fact, they were willing to “not” shoot us if we’d just pull out of the country. Something we refused to do on the terms they were expecting.

And get this:


http://web.mit.edu/ssp/seminars/wed_archives_02fall/michel.htm

“The temporal quality of the North's acquiescence was reflected in the timing of the final invasion of the South - after President Nixon's resignation in August 1974 and the clear loss of any American will to return to Vietnam in a combat role.”

Like I said, no military muscle, the treaty isn’t as good as the paper it’s printed on.

But WAIT! There’s MORE:


http://www.oakton.edu/user/~wittman/chronol.htm

“December 28, 1972
The North Vietnamese announced that they will return to Paris if Nixon ends the bombing. The bombing campaign was halted and the negotiators met during the first week of January, 1973.”

Read that bolded statement. What I’ve been arguing all along, not quite the “ensure reelection” thing, and not quit us wanting them to “stop” shooting at us.

Sinergy:  Seems odd that a country like Vietnam, so anti-US as you claim them to be, would sue our government 2-3 years after we left to reopen diplomatic relations.

WHERE, in my posts, do I say that Vietnam is anti US?

Second, of course they’d try to do that after we refused to recognize their communist government, you know, the one that violated the peace treaty?

Then when the embargo started to really bite, well, don’t you figure that they’d want to talk to us?


_____________________________

As long as I have a face, beautiful women have a place to sit.

http://herfacechair.blogspot.com/ & http://twitter.com/herfacechair

Final Say: http://vox-ultima.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 600
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