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RE: Disease theory - 11/5/2007 7:54:00 AM

TotalState

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There's always someone who steps up to defend these 'theories', isn't there?

I didn't post disparaging the empyrical method at all. I have witnessed no use of that method in this thread...merely a statment that the OP has pulled out of thin air. They aren't worthy of consideration. They're hearsay, annecdotally supported. It is indicative that the OP has neither certification or training, too. Sure, you don't need a PhD to make discoveries. Sure you don't need to be an MD to have insight...but 99% of the garbage spewed on the internet by unverified sources comes from people who have neither...and probably not any medical or scientific training. High school diplomas, perhaps? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

No evidence. Neither scientific (experimentally verifiable) or empyrical (experience-based, verifiably so).

And I'm still waiting for that article. My guess is...I will never see it, or it will prove to be just as baseless as the initial statements made.

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RE: Disease theory - 11/5/2007 3:13:30 PM

Petronius

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I think a common form of urban legends, particularly from certain belief-systems, is to announce that Scientist X, just before he died, repudiated his theories that belief-system challenged.

I do seem to recall that the legend is almost always reproduced as "I heard" "somewhere" rather than as a citation from the actual writings of Scientist X.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

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RE: Disease theory - 11/5/2007 3:32:22 PM

OrrisKitten

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Here is a fact, I used to have bad arthritis, I could not walk up and down stairs without excruciating pain. The fact is I changed how I eat, and now I can stand straight up form sitting on the floor with my legs crossed. That is fact my friends.

The way I changed my diet has changed my life. I don't even have to brush my teeth anymore. I do not get halitosis. My theory on that cannot be proven, but the indications are there. My theory is that tooth decay starts from the inside, not at the surface. Teeth are bones. In a normal person they actually never stop growing.

I had a chipped tooth since my pre-teen years, it is no longer chipped, that is a fact. I know this and I can feel it with my tongue right now. It was hit with a shovel as a buddy and I buried something in the backyard. This is all fact, I don't just think my tooth capped itself, it has.

If I could find a database of old Xrays, like back from when I got shot, and then get new Xrays I could prove it to you. But I can't. I could get a current Xray, but without the old Xrays, that simply does not add up to proof. So I will drop it, but I really do know a few things. I know I can walk, I know that my right incisor no longer has that nice sharp edge I used to strip wires with. I know these things, you either believe it or not.

Suck down those bags of potato chips and bowls of macaroni. Don't bother to eat meat. Forget green veggies. Go right ahead. Live on pizza and spaghetti. Go right ahead, it is your choice. When I did that, I went from being one of the tough motherfuckers in this town to being barely able to walk. My recovery from that was caused by something. Think my drastic changwe of diet might have had anything to do with it ?

I saw no doctors, I had no surgery. I took no injections of any wonder drug, or anything for that matter. So what is to account for my recovery ?

Apply your school boughten science to that. Tell me what you think. Do you think my change in diet had nothing to do with it, and that my body was just ready to fix my knee joints, regardless of my mineral intake ? If that is what you think you need new science.

The "facts" that I believe fit with other "facts". You can do any experiment you want, feed whiskey to lab rats to prove that cyclamates cause cancer. Feed llamas cow shit to prove global warming. Doesn't work.

The problem is that sometimes the wrong conclusions are drawn.

.....

Okay, I will agree with two things: One being that you have improved your health and I congratulate you on that, it takes some people a great deal of will power to do such a thing.

What I have to say about that though, is that your body didn't just magically heal. There are things happening inside of your body that science has explained. Your entire rant on minerals not being in the soil goes to only prove this fact (or belief or whatever word you want to give it). Obviously, some food is not good enough, some does not have the nutritional goodness we need. Eating right helps with this. Eating right repairs your immune system. Go to any doctor (If you could deign yourslef to stoop so low because damn do you come off as high and mighty in every response you have made!) and he or she will be able to tell you what it is in your system that repaired your arthritis. They could tell you that your calcium intake will help your teeth and bones, that there are dangerous fats and all sorts of chemicals in the cheap store bought food that most people in America eat. No shit, it is bad for you. You are not the first to discover that eating right helps the body and there are plenty of people who are certified and actually share this knowledge in a productive way, such as becoming a nutritionist and helping people become healthy in alternative ways to popping pills. The point is that these people have discovered the same thing you have and rather than trying to make it extreme, they supply people who want to change with some possible answers. Can you say the same, or is this just a rant you reserved specially for us?

the second thing I agree with is that sometimes the wrong conclusions are drawn. This applies to science and everyday logic which you claim to have. To bring it to a base example, a child is cold, puts his hands by the fire and he is warm. Now he thinks he will be warmer and happy if he puts his hand in the fire. Bad choice, he gets burned and learns his lesson. bad conclusion, which is then repaired with simply not putting your hand into fire.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I believe that this is not a good thing, and I believe that "they" don't want to do anything about it. I also believe that it may be impossible to fix because I believe that there are more people on this planet than it can support.

Pick me apart. DO IT ! Tell me that you can live on Mallow cups and potato chips and be healthy and live to be 100. Tell me how right it is to not eat right and expect a cure in a bottle of pills. Tell me pain killers are OK, that pain is NOT a signal by the body for the brain to send more resouces to the painful area. Tell me you can eat anything you want, the doctors can fix it.

Tell me that.

Now, where were we.............

T

Okay, to your point that people do not want to be healthy and that they don't want to do anything about it.... Some people can't do anything about it. The sad fact is that in the US we have an inadequate healthcare system and inadequate educational procedures. Science has merit and if people were educated about the bad things having to do with their bodies (Disease in all forms from cancer which may not be avoidable due to genetic predispostion or an STD which could have been stopped with a condom; obesity; mutilation and various other things.) then we would probably be a much healthier culture. Sad fact is that we are not and until the system changes this is what we, as a country, have to deal with. I will not speak about other countries as my time abroad was limited and I do not know enough about the world.

As to your point about pain killers. Because you do not like them does not mean that they are the end of the world and are pure evil. Yes, pain is a trigger to your nervous system that 'hey, something is fucked up in your body,' but not all pain can be fixed. Should people who have injuries that are beyond repair have to suffer every single day of their lives or should they be allowed to have some ease in their bodies? Should people be limited to your world view? If someone were to get into a car accident and had to get (gasp!) surgery, are they wrong? If said person had to live on pain meds, is that wrong? Should a person infected with HIV/AIDS not medicate themselves and choose instead to give themselves a death sentence?

I am not saying that you can survive healthily on junk food and not exercising or taking care of yourself, but you did a whole lot of dicrediting to things in your umbrella statements about pain pills and modern medicine in general.

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RE: Disease theory - 11/5/2007 5:04:38 PM

Leonardo

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I may not be an expert re germ theory, but what I do know is this:

Last time bride and I were actually sick was Jan. 1, 2005, and it was because of something we ate on Dec. 31, 2004. Prior to that, I cannot recall th time before that I have been sick, and I cannot recall when the last time was that I had a flu, or even a full-blown common cold, for that matter.

I do not drink when I eat... Generally, when I go out to a restaurant, I usually leave a full glass of water on the table. Bride, however, drinks when she eats, and many times I give her my water at restaurants. Yet, it is rare for either of us to get sick.

And it is not to assume that we lead sheltered lives, since bride works at a store, and I am in constant up-close face-to-face contact with people daily, shaking hands, and speaking with them while sitting across the desk or sitting right next to them. I do make it a point to wash my hands with soap and water after meeting with a client, so I generally may wash my hands 10-20 times in a day on average.

And bride and I rarely take any prescription or even OTC allopathic medicines for anything. Generally, we use a good bit of herbs which strengthen and maintain our immune systems. We exercise regularly (but not by "doing exercises"). We spend alot of time outdoors, boating, fishing, swimming, hiking, camping.

And as far as healthy eating is concerned, I believe in healthy foods. So I enjoy pizza regularly... all the major food groups in a single slice, huh. And I also enjoy beer, cheeseburgers, hot dogs, and even loney sammiches.

Everything will kill you, so I just don't worry about it. Someone told me once that hot dogs are full of preservatives. So what. It just may mean that when I die, I won't need to be embalmed. since I'll be pickled by beer and preserved by hot dogs.

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RE: Disease theory - 11/6/2007 7:21:12 PM

briska

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Hell, I drink when I eat all the time and I still get sick with regularity. (Of course, I'm a college student living in a dorm... so is my life.)

Anything in moderation is good for you - the key is what does moderation mean for you or someone else? It's all relative.

My only fear in this thread is that some one will see it, abide by not ever going to a doctor or some such theory that was stuck in this thread, and have harmful consequences. It's inane to think that any one on the internets - with no sources, and admittedly doesn't know anything - has the cure for life, considering actual science has many other theories -proven to a certain degree- that have a much lower risk.

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RE: Disease theory - 11/8/2007 4:21:45 AM

SeveredNeuron

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Even though I have just recieved a BSc in molecular cell biology and genetics, sometimes I chose not to enter these arguments because of the very ignorant people in our society who choose not to understand science and will always stand by their biased opinions.
However,
Pathogens have many ways of entering the body
- Mucous membranes in the major 'orifices' of the body - genital and urinal tracts and mouth are lined with mucous to block out most infections (this is called passive immunity btw), not so the viruses can go through the mucous. When they do, its only because the mucous has been compromised (i.e. an open wound).
- Alot of viruses and pathogens are respiratory based
- Many gastrointestinal bugs are very hardy and can withstand the very low pH's of our stomachs (pH of around 2.0) - best example is the Helicobactor Pylori virus which was mistaken for stress for a really long time (and made pharmo companies a hellova alot of money) due to its ability to change the environment around it to a pH it liked and then settle on a nice piece of your stomach creating painful ulcers. People might remember this... these lovely chaps from UWA, Perth Australia who induced H.Pylori to prove that it caused ulcers (and not stress) won the 2005 Nobel Peace Price in Physiology and Medicine.
- It is true that viruses are evolving to overcome the drugs we throw at it .. however this is not a new development, when penicillin was first released there were a few cases whose infections were resistant to it. Pencillin is a substance given off by a mould... this mould also fights viruses thus some viruses would have already overcome this.
Most (actually all but there are weird exceptions) of our drugs come from nature, we just modify them to be more effective. Why are we then surprised to find that nature has already overcome them?

Alot of the questions we ask ... WE STILL DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO!! We don't know why some people can be slobs and eat shit and still live long lives, however we can take a pretty educated guess if we dig for the information.

"The more you know... the less you don't know".

~ Ania

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RE: Disease theory - 11/18/2007 12:56:20 PM

Termyn8or

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OK, this is for everybody, including the person who cited the lack of letters after my name and lack of profound sources for every supposition.

Let's just figure that Pasteur did not change his mind. Let's just totally forget about that, but replace it with the possibility that he was just plain wrong.

I don't want to bandy points of logic around all day, but I have noticed something about people. When you read the words of a semi-anonymous internet poster, you give the words a certain weight, and decide if they make any sense.

When people read the writings in a textbook or from some "published" source, they tend to give those words more weight, tend to believe them more automatically.

However, simple research will reveal many errors in textbooks THAT WERE CAUGHT, and the textbooks recalled. If you've never heard of this welcome back from the moon, try Google. I mean it has even hit the TV news from time to time. So the question becomes : The people who caught the errors in the textbooks, what textbook did they read ? And who wrote that other textbook. Are they sure the new textbook is in error and the old one was correct ? How can they be sure ?

The fact of the matter is that anybody can write anything. This fact I carefully explained to my friend's son who was in college. He did very well, because of the kind of help and support he got. No, not homework help, thinking help. "We" taught him to question everything, especially those things that do not seem to make sense. He was also taught that you do not express yourself on tests, give them the answer they want whether it is right or wrong in your own mind. He did really well at UWM, which is one of the academically tougher schools.

So you question what I say. That is fine, in fact I expect it. Shoot down my theory, and I will figure up another. I will go back to the drawing board so to speak, but I will not put my tail between my legs.

What it boils down to is I do not say I know a hell of alot, but I also think that the "published" sources can be wrong as well. As such I thank you for all the responses, if they shoot down my theory, or even cite my lack of a firm basis for it, so be it. Everyone's words, taken with the proper size proverbial grain of salt, are important.

There are a couple more points on this subject I would like to bring up, but that will wait until I digest all these responses and address them more specifically.

In other words, I'll be baack.

T

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