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Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 6:29:03 AM

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This was sparked when I read a comment on one of the other boards here. I had a conversation this morning with a Dominant and got a very different and interesting perspective than the one that I have. I'd be very interested in the perspectives of others on this. Do you think that it is beneficial to begin a scene with your submissive and have the goal be for it to end in a safeword? Do you think that it is a valid way of finding limits? Pushing limits? Do you think it will weaken their limits? Increase their tolerance? Will you do it repeatedly during a scene with breaks in between? Do you think that safewords are to be used as a last resort....to signal actual danger or possible harm...or should they be used as an "I don't want to take anymore of what you are doing and I want you to stop"? If you tell your sub that the scene will not end until they safeword, do you think you will get an accurate representation of that limit or do you think it will be used when things start getting a bit tough because they have the idea that the way to end it in this instance is going to have to be a safeword, that thought conciously on their mind throughout the scene?

And for the subs....how would you feel if you knew your Dominant was going to intentionally MAKE you safeword and they would not stop until you did?

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 6:39:33 AM

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For me safewords mean "Something's wrong, stop help NOW"

But some people use them to mean "This is way too intense" which is why you get the constant debate of "Can you safeword during punishment?"

Personally I think it's a bad focus to have if that is your actual GOAL in the scene, there's so much more to a scene, why make it a goal just to get someone to safeword? I just don't see it as being practical or necessary, nor with enough benefits compared to what you can get out of scenes as a whole.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 7:08:44 AM

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I had been debating this morning about how to respond to that without it turning into a flame war... that thread has been going so nicely I hated to see it get sidetracked. This is a good solution

My personal view is that safewords are used as Emerald describes... they mean "Stop now, something is wrong!" Its a safety measure intended to keep things from going any further if they accidentally go too far. Deliberately pushing a submissive to safeword is like deliberately red-lining the engine of your car, do it often enough and you'll blow the engine.

Is it a valid way of finding limits? No... you find limits by negotiating them prior to the scene and also, if its a long term situation, through continual discussions and observations.

Is it a valid way of pushing limits? No... see my essay here for my thoughts on pushing limits. Pushing Limits Post #14

Will it weaken their limits? Possibly, it could also increase their level of fear and resistance and reduce their level of trust. If this were at a club or play party it would probably get a dominant the reputation of being a questionable play partner.

Will it increase their tolerance? To what... the pain or of the dominant's foolishness?

I think what this sort of thing would be likely to do is decrease trust and increase apprehension in most cases. In general, the idea is for safewords to never actually be needed... not see how many times you can push a submissive too it like scoring points in some bizarre game. I could see a dominant perhaps deliberately doing this once as part of teaching a new submissive about using a safeword... that is, taking them through a controlled situation where they are told they will be pushed to use their safeword so they have the experience of actually doing it (some submissives won't safeword even when they should becuase they're afraid too, embarassed, etc.). I suppose a couple could also decided as part of their private play to regularly push til safewords are used as part of their method of play... what they do behind closed doors is their business and not mine. But in general, no, I do not think this is a good idea.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 9:09:04 AM

Veav

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In your experience, is a "yellow/red" system viable - having one safeword that means "too much" and another that means "GET ME OUT RIGHT NOW"? The best of both worlds as ES2 described?

I tend to agree with the idea that having it be the goal seems a bit counterproductive. If you want to surpass limits, isn't it better to take a limit and try pushing it that one step further, raising the bar? Metaphor time: weightlifting. If you want to grow, adding a bit more weight or a few more minutes lets you adapt and grow stronger... but throwing on weights until you simply can't anymore is prone to injuring you and setting your progress back all to hell and gone. Ssubmission isn't weightlifting and the limits aren't as defineable, but still...

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 9:21:36 AM

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No I do not think it is
There are submissives out here that would take that on as a challenge and NOT safeword out.

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Phil Moulton
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(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 9:24:34 AM

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I've never used a safeword - my preference is to know my love well enough that we can communicate without a a given signal.

If I understand the question though, I think you are asking what we think of taking her to the absolute limits of her endurance - to the point where she fails to endure and what I am doing is forced on her (at least for that time).

Hell ya - that's hot as hell, baby. I get off whipping her way beyond what she can natively stand - part of our power dynamic is that when she says "STOP NOW SOMETHING IS WRONG" I ignore her, and do whatever I want. If the "STOP NOW" communication because she has a sprained ankle and I might injure her I would of course stop - but it's my desire to care for her, not her suffering or emphatic communication of suffering, that makes me stop.

98% of the time the screams to stop are because she is in wild pain, and though her spirit is willing, her flesh is weak.

That's my purpose in this area - when she screams "Stop baby, STOP please" in agony, to hit her until I'm ready to unload in one of her holes.

(in reply to Veav)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 9:39:38 AM

nella

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Somtimes it might be good for a Dominat to push the limits of their subs to know them, as one thing is what you say your limit is, another is what might be your actual limit. But as a basic sense, it dont sounds to me as a good idea, but for some it might be.

(in reply to Faramir)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 10:16:19 AM

brokenhallelujah

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Hmm... This is a tough scenario.

On the one hand, I agree with Padriag, that safewords are to be used only when something is horribly, horribly wrong. But I have played with subs who would safeword if their nose itched, and some who wouldn't at all, even when they probably should have.

Knowing that a sub WILL safeword if needed is a necessary part of the power exchange, though, for me. That's part of the trust that the dominant has to have in the submissive, I think. The ways in which a submissive must trust a dominant are more obvious -- but this one is a big one for me. I have to be able to trust someone to know -- and if needed, enforce -- their limits.

Having once been in a situation where the submissive probably should have safeworded and didn't was more than enough for me.

So, yeah, I have made a submissive safeword in the first session before. There was something about her I didn't quite trust. And it ended up being a good thing.

So I see both sides of this question. And I think it depends on the people involved.

(in reply to nella)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 10:33:22 AM

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quote:

part of our power dynamic is that when she says "STOP NOW SOMETHING IS WRONG" I ignore her, and do whatever I want. If the "STOP NOW" communication because she has a sprained ankle and I might injure her I would of course stop

So.. How do you know whether or not she just sprained her ankle or she's suddenly having chest pains or trouble breathing or even if something damaging or something truely wrong has happened if when she attempts to comunicate it to you and you ignore it?

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 10:49:13 AM

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As with everything in life... it depends. I don't feel comfortable saying what works for other couples. I can only really say what works for me. I am not sure we can say what is right for every person playing out there. It may not be right for how you play and the partners you play with, but it might be for someone else.

My Dom has given me scenes where he intensified our play by pushing the envelope. I don't think his goal was to make me safeword out but it was to push my pain tolerance.

Kat

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 10:51:33 AM

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i'd be worried about saying it too early, prolly end up pushing my own limits in fear of disapointing him.

Actually on second thought, it might be alot of fun. As i am used to pushing myself and its easier for me to push then to have some one else push. So it could be fun to push ones self

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 11:26:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

And for the subs....how would you feel if you knew your Dominant was going to intentionally MAKE you safeword and they would not stop until you did?

First, i need to say i don't like safe words nor do i have one. I feel safe words give the Dom and sub both a false sense of security. What happens if the slave is in subspace and cant safe word ( i know there are lots of times i cant talk let alone remember a safe word or sometimes even know i am hurt in a bad way) OR In a Doms case, he spanking the sub and thinking it must be ok she isn't safe wording. There are also other reason like what about the sub that wont safe word for fear of disappointing or does safe word then feels so poorly about using a safe word that she never uses it again.

If i have a cramp or cant breath, i communicate just that. Master, stops, checks me out,ask what is wrong, fixing what ever is wrong and then decides if it should stop or go on. He always knows when i have enough way before i do.

Master has taken me to what i called the darker side, he has pushed me. It wasn't about pushing limits because hitting my with a crop, whip, cane, or what ever he choose at that moment wasn't a limit. ( for me) it was about Finding the light at the end of the darker side, about being free and totally belonging to Him to use as he sees fit and coming back from sub space feeling renewed and alive.

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(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 11:34:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkJH
So.. How do you know whether or not she just sprained her ankle or she's suddenly having chest pains or trouble breathing or even if something damaging or something truely wrong has happened if when she attempts to comunicate it to you and you ignore it?

By ignoring the demand/plea - and listening intently to what is actually being communicated.

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 12:10:05 PM

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I watched a scene about a year ago in which two dominants played a submissive. The goal was for them to make the submissive safeword out. Initially, I was thinking about how "wrong" this was, as I had always considered the safeword as something not to be played with...but then as I watched one of the more intense scenes I have ever witnessed, I started thinking about it more.

1. The submissive in question knew full well what the dominants were trying to do beforehand. Her resistance to say a safeword enabled her to push herself and her limits far past anything she had ever experienced before.

2. The fact that the two dominants stopped what they were doing and began a thorough aftercare session with her as soon as she did safeword out, definately built some trust in her dominant.

I think that in this particular case, forcing the safeword was used responsibly as a training tool. The dominant, as well as the submissive experienced some individual personal growth and the relationship was strengthened through a "trial by fire" of sorts. Obviously, there are a lot of risks involved with playing like this as things could easily go horribly wrong in an instant.

Still not something that I would recommend to someone new, but I no longer associate negative feelings with the idea of playing like that.

~Thorns

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(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 12:14:11 PM

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quote:

Forcing your sub to safeword?

This is exactly why I don't have and would never use a safe-word. I know me - I would see it as a challenge. And I NEVER back down from a challenge!

It would be counterproductive to the relationship I wanted to have with someone. I would rather establish and have trust with the person.

Given the "challenge" - I'd pull out a 2x4 and wind up!

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 1:02:46 PM

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being so sheltered and not getting out into the real world...I speak from my cocoon of safety...in my relationships I don't use safe words as I believe in my abilities and powers of observation...I know the intent and extent of whatever it is I'm to do with mine...I've made it my duty to know mine better than they know themselves...a long hard study but well worth the time spent doing so...therefore whenever and whatever I do...not only do I recieve what I want from it..but mine are always pushed to whatever level I feel is right at that moment...have I been border line at times..you bet you sweet a** I have..that's for me (you dominants know where that's at)...but in that same vain...pushing to that point I know when to end or give care to continue..or just prime the pump for a totally different direction...it's not like racing a train to the crossing and having a wreck..it's damn the gate came down...stop..wait..let it pass and then hit the gas..or say that was close...let's drive home nice and slow and play along the way...however I chose it to be..it's always a trip worth the ride...this is all about the self control I've managed to instill in myself...

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 1:49:07 PM

perfection20005

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I've never had to use my "safeword", but to me it means to stop because something is wrong and I can't go any farther. My Mster does push me each time we are together, but not to the point that I have to use my "safeword". I don't think that it would be right to use saewords that way.

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 2:42:14 PM

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As a BDSM Top, I play with other people's play partners and with people who don't have a play partner.

I play with people I don't know well. I sometimes play with people I've never met. She/he was naked and tied to that frame when I showed up.

I can't know that person's reactions. I can't know what will make the person safeword. Most people react similarly, but what if this is an exception? There are plenty of exceptional people in BDSM. ;)

I also can't assume that a person knows when to safeword. Ever get feedback after a scene where someone tells you where it all went in the toilet when her sciatica acted up? I would have liked a safeword about then.

We need to use safewords. We need to know what they're for. We need to learn how to use them properly. They are for safety. They keep us from killing each other.

I use five different kinds of "safe signals":

1. Ungag me so I can tell you the problem. (This is always a visual signal, like dropping a ball or cloth.)
2. What I'm about to say is not a part of the scene. (This could be a visual or verbal signal.)
3. Something's terribly wrong and you have to figure it out - I can't! (This could be a visual or verbal signal.)
4. My safeword. This means I've been hurt and need help. (This is always verbal and usually loud.)

If I'm joining someone else's scene, I look to the Top(s) that invited me when I see or hear anything unusual.

I differentiate between "safe signals" and what I call "scene signals".

Scene signals are the "red, yellow, green"-type thing. There's plenty of other things that can be used. These aren't safewords. This isn't about safety. It's about endurance, pacing, etc. They're especially helpful in painplay so the bottom can help regulate the pain. It's feedback without explanation.

I don't know why you would want to push to "red". "Yellow" means "caution", not speed up. "Red" might well be used to say, "Don't end the scene, but knock that off - it hurts!"

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 3:18:36 PM

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I think Padriag hits the nail on the head. The only thing that I would add is that it could possibly turn into a battle of wills. This could be completely counterproductive and even dangerous.

R/S,

Master Temujin

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/3/2005 6:01:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: And for the subs....how would you feel if you knew your Dominant was going to intentionally MAKE you safeword and they would not stop until you did?

It depends on what the Dominant and i have decided. Let me try to explain.

Not so long ago i was a newbie...had never played....only dreamed. I met a man and he becomes my Mentor. Note: I don't want to get involved in a discussion as to whether a Mentor should play with a sub. Enough to know that he wished me to have some experience to know if this is what i needed and wanted. So he tells me he wants me, and will make me use a safeword. Heck....he wants me to safeword.!! I didn't see anything bad or wrong with that. I'm a sub remember....i will obey and i'm too much a newbie to know that i'm supposed to be proud if i've never had to use a safeword. So we play, and i eventually safeword. Was that a bad thing? NO!! You see, now i realize that if i need to safeword, he will stop. Oh wow....what has happened?? Trust has happened. I know he will stop if i safeword......he trusts that i will safeword if i feel the need to do so, and he has taught me that the safeword is not a dirty word. Next time we play, we go beyond the limits of our first meeting.

Recently i attended a BDSM event that lasted several days. I arranged to see a Dominant there, one i'd met but never really played with before. Previously we'd talked about safewords...which words we would use, and it seems we both thought of them in the same way. We play one day....play the next day....all goes pretty well. At night on the third day, he decides he's ready for a real scene with that single tail he's been practicing with for awhile. He'd gotten some more instruction and more practice during the event. I've never done a scene with a single tail....oh well, first time for both of us. There is the element of the unknown for both of us. The dungeon area is out in the woods. There is some light, but not much so he checks with me frequently to make sure i'm okay. The feel of the whip is more intense than anything i've ever experienced...SNAP....burn....SNAP....burn. He's brought nothing else to the dungeon, only that whip. He checks on me one last time and i look at him and softly say "red". The scene is over.

The rest of the night passes in a blur. I'm too high on endorphins to think straight. I don't remember some things, and remember small things very well. We don't discuss the scene that night, and in the morning there is no time because he needs to pack up and leave. I just got home today, so we haven't been able to talk about it yet.

Was he waiting for me to safeword before he stopped? Hmmm....i 'think' so from our previous discussion on safewords, but i'm not sure. The problem in playing with someone you have little experience playing with, and also doing a new scene is that there can be miscommunication due to not knowing the other better.

I've had days to think about what happened. I know now how i feel things could have been done differently, and prehaps better. It's something he and i will discuss, for only by discussing and coming to understanding will we both learn.

So, in my long, round about way...would i safeword if i knew the Dominant intended on MAKING me use that safeword? Why...of course i would. I've been taught to do that. I don't consider MAKING me safeword a challenge that i need to get myself in trouble about...just part of playing the way my Mentor taught me to play.

(in reply to mistoferin)

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