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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:05:52 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
Because she might bring home something unwelcome like a virus or a bastard baby.

Bastard progeny is always superior to non-bastard progeny. Evolution by sexual selection in action. I welcome bastard progeny. Any population without a high frequency of bastard progeny - provided that the women have discriminate sexual intercourse, i.e. are verily sexually selective - is doomed.

< Message edited by Rule -- 11/2/2007 3:38:36 PM >

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:12:01 PM   
xoxi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

With all due respect, soshi, so can anyone who isn't kept on a short leash.

I would not live with someone I did not trust to avoid that without keeping them on a short leash.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Yes but if she stops hooking when you marry her then she's no longer a hooker.  One can't be a hooker without getting paid for sex.  Like I said, ex hookers are fair game, but current ones engage in their profession and telling your hooker wife to be faithful to you is like banning your software engineer wife from touching a computer keyboard. 


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:14:29 PM   
xaria


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Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings fellow slaves,

Greetings sassysexygirl,

i never said i was Dominant.  i am far from Dominant.  Anyone that knows me knows this for a fact.  That statement never said i Dominated my husband.  You assumed that from what i said.  i have always been told, making assumptions will get a slave in trouble.

my husband doesn't tell me what to do, nor do i tell him what to do.  we work on things in a vanilla kind of way.  He fully respects my submission to my Master and has rarely come forward to ever question Him.  When there is an issue, they work it out, i stay out of it.  i just do as i am told.

i hope that answers your question.  Thank you for your response.

_____________________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
xaria - Property of Xavier
House of Logos

(in reply to sassysexygirl)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:14:58 PM   
xoxi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
Because she might bring home something unwelcome like a virus or a bastard baby.

Bastard progeny is always superior to non-bastard progeny. Evolution by sexual selection in action. I welcome bastard progeny. Any population without a high frequency of bastard progeny - provided that the women have discriminate sexual intercourse, i.e. are verily sexual selective - is doomed.


Very interesting theory.  Back in the day one of the more common forms of 'bastard' offspring born to a married woman was one fathered when the wife's husband was away at war.  In ancient cultures any able bodied citizen was expected to put in his time in the army...I have to wonder about the genes of the ones who would have been left at home...


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:17:00 PM   
Sylverdawn


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Xoxi:

Please provide statistical verifiable data for such sweeping statements that wives are more likely to be adulterous than slaves.

You seem to have this idea that slavery is some exalted status that confers on slaves some special super powers.. your a girl.. some might sat your a slut.. some might say your property with about as much interest as and allure as the family pet; good simply for momentary amusement.. please dont confuse yourself with Joan of Arc.. or Xaviera Hollander ... nothing special.. nor even unique.. a girl in collar.. no big news. 

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 11/2/2007 3:19:44 PM >


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(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:34:37 PM   
xoxi


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My point was not that a *wife* would be more likely to cheat but that a wife who considers herself an equal partner is more likely to cheat than a wife who considers herself a slave. 

I am afraid I have no statistical verifiable information as Harvard has not yet financed a study comparing the fidelity rates of wives who consider themselves slaves and wives who consider themselves equal partners.  I did have a train of thought and reasoning that led up to that statement but as you don't seem particularly interested I'll keep it short and sweet.


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:37:11 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

My point was not that a *wife* would be more likely to cheat but that a wife who considers herself an equal partner is more likely to cheat than a wife who considers herself a slave

Sorry, but... what a crock of BS

I would like to know where you get your information from?

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:40:43 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
In ancient cultures any able bodied citizen was expected to put in his time in the army...I have to wonder about the genes of the ones who would have been left at home...

Obviously superior genes, as all the stupid genes went to war.

< Message edited by Rule -- 11/2/2007 4:07:14 PM >

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 3:47:23 PM   
aimeeTorvold


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to aimee in some ways a wife is the same as a slave. if you look at it from the 1920's prospective. back then the women took care of house and home. while the men worked and provided the food. so no calling a slave a FC would in all honesty be silly. since she already free in her chains.

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 4:23:07 PM   
smilezz


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edited...

< Message edited by smilezz -- 11/2/2007 4:24:36 PM >


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 4:25:15 PM   
xBullx


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-fast reply-

I can see I should not have left the boards this afternoon and left you all to your own devises. Many of you are new or simply visiting and most are attempting to understand things about Gor; the first step is to leave our learned western hypocracies out of the senerio. This thread demonstrates the danger in trying to mix what is Gor with what is todays western way of thinking. There are a few laws that we, as Goreans must abided by to survive in this present world we find ourselves, that's ok and fair enough, but it is not important to morph what is Gorean to meet these demands, what is important if you don't like prison is that you abide by the given laws. Or never get caught not doing different, I choose to be cooperative for the most part.

This confusion is the demon created when someone tries to redefine what is Gor to meet legal parameters or the individual, not to mention social confines of western thinking. To be Gorean is what it is, the books have given sufficient guide to this end. Whenever we have a new wave of Goreans flow through the forums we go thru this very subject. My bet is that is why Leonidas has moved on to other things, or has decided to just go out and live his life as best a Gorean can. This same ole, same ole does challange ones sanity.

As you can see, many are confused on this issue, the reason they are is simple, just like little aimee, slut of Torvald, most are trying to find an Western societal parallel so that they can make Gor appear to be what suits them. She went back in time to find her excuse, that doesn't change the fact that a man does not enter into a contract with his property, unless he is other than Gorean, or partaking in an act that is un-Gorean. If owning a slave is important to some of you, perhaps you should be man about it, divorce her and keep her as a slave. Why worry about the western way of shit, she is just your slave, she is bound to serve and maintain her place through good effort. Just ponder on the reason you call her a slave, is it because of its romantic ideals or because she is your property, if she is, she has no say in your contractual obligations, make her truly accontable for her meals and quarters. Can you do that? Or will you afford her legal quarter, hence owning part of your ass? What are you trying to make Gorean? Think about it.

You folks can do whatever you feel is important to live your lives as you must; but just because you proclaim yourself Gorean and you want to do something does not mean that is Gorean or will be recognized as such by other Goreans. We all go through this personal battle, trust me, we all do. Now if you don't give a shit about what others think, we have nothing to debate. If you feel you must debate this, perhaps you first need to define to yourself the reason you want to debate this. Is it for the greater good and understanding of what is Gorean, or is it for a more personal and self serving reasons? 

Confusion does not lie in being Gorean, it lies in the attempt to alter its premise. I have said it before on many occasions, but I'll say it again. No one is forcing any of you to be Gorean, why force what is Gorean to be you?

Hope this post helps a little,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to aimeeTorvold)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 4:31:01 PM   
Sakinah


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greetings soshi,

quote:

My point was not that a *wife* would be more likely to cheat but that a wife who considers herself an equal partner is more likely to cheat than a wife who considers herself a slave. 


are you speaking of vanillas where the woman are not mastered? if so this would make a reasonable amount of sense, in the fact,they may perhaps be looking for that belly to be controlled (even tho they may not be aware of what the reason is),if their mate isnt doing it.

This train of thought is not any type of gorean philosophy, just a hypothesis that came to mind  to your thinking.

well wishes

_____________________________

The Gorean women, for reasons that are not altogether clear to me, considering the culture, rejoices in being a woman. She is often an exciting, magnificent glorious creature, outspoken, talkative, vital, active, spirited.
bk3 p 67

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 4:33:38 PM   
Maahsatti


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Greetings Cheryl,

   I have heard said many times.
" The perfect women is an FC, she is a slut in the bedroom and a Lady in public"..*rolls my eyes*
Indeed, a slave in robes if a man Free's a slave to be his wife.I would re evaluate my respect towards such a man.
Another saying I have heard over the yrs  that a FC is just a contracted slave.
I have often jokingly called Liz that...Cuz it gets such a lovely rise outta her.
hehe, Love ya Liz *winks*
The saying is obsurd at best.
I agree, a slave is a slave is a slave.
Making her a wife does not change that and in no way places her in the same league as a FW.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 4:42:38 PM   
xoxi


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I probably have said something like "I would believe" prefacing that sentence.  It's just an idea.

I said it for two reasons.  One because a slave/submissive partner enjoys serving and putting her partner's needs above her own whereas the types of women expecting equality care at least as much about their own orgasm as their partner's.  So it would stand to reason that if they have decided to submit to a man they want to satisfy their partner's needs.

Secondly if a woman considers herself a slave she feels that her body is owned by her partner.  She might have sex with another man at his discretion, but the state of mind is that her body is her man's.

Also this is just my own non scientific research speaking but I've found that a lot of times slavery fosters a codependency in the slave.  These are totally just my own ideas...I've just found that it's the fun fearless feminist females who read cosmo who tend to have the affairs.  Judging solely from my own sample pool of urban educated 20/30-somethings that is.



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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 4:52:39 PM   
Aswad


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Beer, Bull?

Cheers,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: Methinks I see why Kim, Leonidas and others are reluctant to participate.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 11/2/2007 4:54:46 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 5:03:53 PM   
smilezz


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=fast reply=

I have said this in a few posts now. I am not sure it is their reluctancy, although i would not want to put words into their mouth(s)....perhaps it's just a "Few" have finally gotten fed up with some of the bullshit that is going on.

Helll...i am not even a Gorean anything and i am bothered by a great deal of things that are going on as of late.


Just a thought from someone that may be taking some things a bit to personal..... *shrugz*

Happy Friday!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 5:17:02 PM   
Domminde


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After the fifth book Norman really shifted gears on Free Women. This is strictly my observation but I think it would be difficult to argue otherwise: FW in the Gor novels were almost always used as a vehicle to demonstrate the futility of a woman trying to be anything other than her inherent nature, (by Norman's Gorean Philosophy) a slave.

Prior to this, even our heroic earth refuge Tarl was freeing slaves like it was going out of style and even taking companions that had been slave.

If two people want to benefit from the advantages (legal or just community social) of marriage, so be it. This would really lay outside the arena of a Gorean lifestyle since nothing like it really existed on the fictitious Gor.

To terminate an FC contract in Gor a man could either enslave his FC or just let the contract laps after the usual one year period.

in the US we have to pay some bloodsucking attorney. (it's a joke folks, take it easy)

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 5:30:00 PM   
barelynangel


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Greetings,

As i miss his words of understanding on the Boards also, i asked Master if i could post some of his past thoughts on the subject of a Man marrying his slave:

LEONIDAS:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_197544/mpage_1/key_marry/tm.htm#199171
Philosophically speaking, marrying your slave doesn't square so well with the notion of your slave being chattel. Nevermind what you might or might not vow that you don't really mean if you actually do view the woman next to you as property, there really isn't any way around the fact that marriage is a mutual undertaking of mutual obligations of some sort. When a woman becomes your wife, she ceases to be property.

Practically speaking, my experience of some years is that it doesn't work very well. There were raging debates among us years ago about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of a man marrying his slave. I've noticed over the years that many of the men from the "marry your slave" camp either aren't married to the same woman anymore, or if they are, consider them to be their "free companion" now. Why that is I couldn't say for sure. One theory that I have is that people who grew up in this century in the western hemisphere have a pretty well defined pideonhole in their brain where "wife" goes, while the slot in their brain where "slave" fits isn't so well defined. We didn't grow up watching our fathers, uncles, and other men deal with their slaves. We saw lots of examples of wives though, and so had lots of opportunities to model how to deal with one. That may be where the rub comes in long term when trying to hold the notion of "wife" and "slave" in your head at the same time. The "wife" concept is simply much better defined for most men, and very easy to fall into behaviorally. The "slave", in time, just ends up being the "wife" just because that's what we know.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_213679/mpage_1/key_marry/tm.htm#214131
quote from another poster:

But I don't get it- I see gorean doms and slaves here all over the place talking about how much they romantically and emotionally love their slave/master? They even marry them and have actual families with them and more. I see gorean people act from perspectives and motivations that are NOTHING like using slaves as chattel.


....I can tell you that, over time, many of those who were married to and had families with their slaves ultimately stopped calling them slaves, opting instead to consider them free companions.

The people identifying as Gorean on this site are a bit more varied than you would find on a "Goreans Only" kind of site. I hate to say it (again) because it is unpopular, but to understand the nature of Gorean slavery, you'll have to read the books. If you had, you would start seeing that what some people call Gorean slavery is mostly or wholly inconsistant with Gorean slavery.

In the BDSM world, you can call anything slavery, and anyone's definition is just as valid as anyone else's. Gorean slavery isn't like that. There is an objective standard against which you may measure what someone is doing and consider whether that's really Gorean slavery, or not....



quote:

I think it's fine if a man doesn't own a slave that he wishes.  I think it's fine if a man does love his slave, too.  I think it's fine if a man marries that slave, and has offspring with her.  I don't think the measure of it's Gorean-ness means a damn; a man who chooses not to have offspring or marry a woman, because he think he will be unmanned by it or because he will fall short of any philsophy (Gorean or otherwise) demonstrates an inability to establish who he is, for himself.
 
Leonidas:
Then you have it bass-akwards, which isn't suprising, since you claim to be an outsider in the first place.

It's not about conforming to a dogma.  At all.  It's about recognizing yourself in somethng.  I do not hold the views that I do because Norman said I should.  I hold them because I agree with what he wrote down, most of which he did not even make up, rather, simply observed in the nature of men.  This same tendency in men (like me) has been observed completely apart from the Gor books, and even named (not so flatteringly) by those who would like us to stop it (the "Madonna/Whore complex").  Norman didn't make t up.  He just recognized that men in male dominated cultures do tend to think like that, and (heretically) suggested that it might not be a bad thing.

You don't have to identify with any of this if it isn't you.  To suggest that men who do aren't their own men, though, is just plain cowardly.  Whether you like it or not, you are, to some extent, both the beneficiary and prisoner of some culture or another.  I hope for your sake it is one that genuinely suits your actual temperment.


and finally:
 
quote:

This is a cultural diference I don't understand. Isn't it enslavement that makes a girl a slave? How does marrying the girl change things from *her* perspective? Isn't that where ownership beliefs are built, in the girl? If you lived absolutely and abjectly under the will and authority of another person(and can't of your own volition leave) how are you not owned and not a slave? How is that different for Goreans? How does that power-base evaporate when a man marries a person he owns literally..not just in status but owns. Do you know what I mean?

It's different for Goreans for the very same reason that it was different for Xerces.  Obviously, his power base (when it came to Ester) didn't change much when she went from being just another Jewish serving girl in his house to being a Queen, but her status did change.  Even though she was still absolutely subject to his rule and will, she became entitled to considerations that she would not have been entitled to as a slave girl.  Have you not noticed folks who argue for marrying a slave often site a wife having rights (like insurance and powers of attorney) that slaves don't get?  It's the same thing.  You make a slave your wife if you want her to have a status that a slave doesn't have, and you are willing to marry her in order for her to have it.

If you own a woman, and you marry her, she certainly may still serve you, as your wife, just as she did the day before she became your wife.  The balance of power between you, and how you relate to one another, may not have changed a bit.  Her status has just changed.  She is your wife (or Free Companion if you prefer) now, of which we can have only one where we live.  ...


These are all the post from Master Leonidas -- i simply put his name in the author and the word marry and i think 6 threads came up and these were the ones that discussed this issue, and asked him if i could post some of his old thoughts on the subject and he said he doesn't mind. 

angel


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R.W. Emerson


(in reply to xaria)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 5:32:09 PM   
Domminde


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sabba
Greetings xaria;

You asked if it was Gorean slavery. The answer is NO. A Gorean Master regards His kajira as property. When a girl attempts to serve 2 Masters, that's sharing. Sharing is a form of compromise. Gorean Masters don't compromise.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}


Actually, Gorean men were very generous with their property. It was not uncommon for an owner to give his slave to another for their toil or pleasure

(in reply to sabba)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 5:41:57 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz


=fast reply=

I have said this in a few posts now. I am not sure it is their reluctancy, although i would not want to put words into their mouth(s)....perhaps it's just a "Few" have finally gotten fed up with some of the bullshit that is going on.

Helll...i am not even a Gorean anything and i am bothered by a great deal of things that are going on as of late.


Just a thought from someone that may be taking some things a bit to personal..... *shrugz*

Happy Friday!

~smilezz~

I know what you mean. As much as I don't understand alot; I make it a point to try and listen and understand what is being said; and in turn, try to have others listen and at the very least, try to understand.
As others have said though, its like banging your head against a brick wall, and as much as I enjoy the pain, the action itself becomes a bit redundant.



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