RE: "punishment"="failure"?

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ineedyouMistress -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/8/2007 12:18:23 PM)
I couldn't survive in one of those "I don't punish. I sit down and have a chat about... and if the sub still disobeys then it wasn't meant to be" kind of relationships. I need to please and worship, but I also need to feel safe that I can screw up (fail in some way), face the consequences, and be forgiven. It's also another way that my Mistress shows Her love for me, that I'm actually worth the occasional disappointments and the effort involved in punishments (which aren't necessarily physical) that follow. Also, I'm not always feeling perfectly submissive though I'm otherwise fine. When I've messed up and not given myself completely and selflessly as I should, my Mistress will take what belongs to Her. Sometimes I even put up some "fight," but I always end up losing to Her when all is said and done. It's incredible to see that powerful woman defeat me, put me in my place, and make me pay for my hopeless rebellion. She's so beautiful in Her victory, and it's like kneeling before Her again for the first time. I don't know my Mistress' take on the whole thing, but She must enjoy it this way as She isn't on the internet looking for a perfect sub who will give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give givegive give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give givegive give give give give give give give give give give give givegive give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give without hoping for anything in return or screwing up once, twice, or--OMFG!!! kick him to the curb--three times!!!!!111!!!11

thetammyjo -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/8/2007 12:32:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ineedyouMistress I couldn't survive in one of those "I don't punish. I sit down and have a chat about... and if the sub still disobeys then it wasn't meant to be" kind of relationships. I need to please and worship, but I also need to feel safe that I can screw up (fail in some way), face the consequences, and be forgiven. It's also another way that my Mistress shows Her love for me, that I'm actually worth the occasional disappointments and the effort involved in punishments (which aren't necessarily physical) that follow. Also, I'm not always feeling perfectly submissive though I'm otherwise fine. When I've messed up and not given myself completely and selflessly as I should, my Mistress will take what belongs to Her. Sometimes I even put up some "fight," but I always end up losing to Her when all is said and done. It's incredible to see that powerful woman defeat me, put me in my place, and make me pay for my hopeless rebellion. She's so beautiful in Her victory, and it's like kneeling before Her again for the first time. I don't know my Mistress' take on the whole thing, but She must enjoy it this way as She isn't on the internet looking for a perfect sub who will give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give givegive give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give givegive give give give give give give give give give give give givegive give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give give without hoping for anything in return or screwing up once, twice, or--OMFG!!! kick him to the curb--three times!!!!!111!!!11 I think you may not understand then what is actually involved in "chatting" about things when there are problems. I personally think that's far more work and far more productive in the long run than a punishment. Figuring out the issue and offering the opportunity to correct any errors and practice proper behavior or attitude is not punishment, it's teaching someone who to be a better slave. It's positive re-enforcement.

ineedyouMistress -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/8/2007 1:24:45 PM)
Different strokes for different folks. My Mistress is not the type who will ever have a multi-paragraph "Basic Philosophy of BDSM." She and I are both happy without deep probing into "issues" of why I replied with a sneer and "For Christ's sake!" instead of the expected "Yes Mistress." "you will obey and be respectful OR ELSE..." works for Her. "you have to obey and be respectful because blah blah blah, meaning of submission, blah blah blah, commitment, blah blah blah, the relationship, blah blah blah..." would give Her cluster headaches. She really teaches me to listen to my feelings and not overanalyze things. She knows that inside my head is a constant "chat" to begin with, so I'm not missing anything if She's quicker to put me in the corner or go off on my ass with a prickly hairbrush.

thetammyjo -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/8/2007 2:39:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ineedyouMistress Different strokes for different folks. My Mistress is not the type who will ever have a multi-paragraph "Basic Philosophy of BDSM." She and I are both happy without deep probing into "issues" of why I replied with a sneer and "For Christ's sake!" instead of the expected "Yes Mistress." "you will obey and be respectful OR ELSE..." works for Her. "you have to obey and be respectful because blah blah blah, meaning of submission, blah blah blah, commitment, blah blah blah, the relationship, blah blah blah..." would give Her cluster headaches. She really teaches me to listen to my feelings and not overanalyze things. She knows that inside my head is a constant "chat" to begin with, so I'm not missing anything if She's quicker to put me in the corner or go off on my ass with a prickly hairbrush. Again I don't think some of you really understand what those of us who don't punish so often are really doing when we say we talk about things. I don't have to have these talks with Fox very often, I can't remember the last time any more than I can remember the last time I punished him. He is my slave and he has been both well trained and desirous of serving. He doesn't rebel because it is foreign concept to him. Yet he is far from a mindless object. As you said this works for us just as punishment works for you.

Dari -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/8/2007 2:59:05 PM)
Does punishment = failure? No. Does the need for punishment = failure? Yes. Sometimes my fault (hey, I'm not perfect, just dominant), sometimes my sub's fault. If something happens that should not, then it's a failure either on my part for not explaining clearly what was expected, or their fault, in not following the rules. And no matter what action I take in response, in all cases my sub should end up with a clear understanding of why that particular occurrence was unacceptable. Whether I follow up with phyiscal punishment or not depends as much on the needs of the sub as the needs of the Dom(me), in my opinion, and is unrelated to the exercising of sadism in play. I'm a sadist, it's how I'm wired - but that's irrelevant when it comes to a sub being disobedient. Everyone is wired differently - I have no real need to discipline or punish, but if that's what my sub requires to reinforce rules, that's what I'll do. A different sub may just need to know I am displeased, without any physical (not necessarily limited to punitive) punishment. As with everything else in BDSM, it's going to depend entirely on the people involved and the dynamic between them.

LPslittleclip -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/17/2007 1:25:23 PM)
as a sub i view being punished as being a failuer to my dom as i have tried to be nothing but pleasing to M'Lady i did earn her displeasuer and feel a failure for it i didnt want to do anything but please M'Lady but in the effort to do so i faileed her

Celeste43 -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/17/2007 2:04:55 PM)
Yes, I see punishment as failure on both halves of the equation. Is what he is asking impossible for me to do without breaking other commitments? Did I understand what he meant, did he explain clearly enough that I would know what to question? That last because mainly here things don't come down to willful disobedience but to a misunderstanding. And sometimes neither one of us realizes at the time we don't understand, that just comes out in the aftermath. I do what I can. If I can't do better, I need his help and guidance. Example, people who don't buckle up the moment they get into a car. You could punish if they don't change their habits the moment they are told to, but we all know it takes about a month of doing something every time before it becomes a new habit. So instead of punishing, why not help make a new habit? In this case, a piece of cardboard sitting on the passenger seat that says BUCKLE is very effective as a reminder during the one month learning process, and if they feel more comfortable keeping it there an extra month, no harm done.

Lordandmaster -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/17/2007 2:33:57 PM)
Yeah, for me, the need to punish is an indication that there's been a failure. If I have to punish someone over and over again, there's something wrong. But punishment and discipline aren't the same thing for me. If I whip her because I feel like it--or because I think she needs it--that's not punishment. Punishment is for a specific mistake, whether one of omission or commission, and its purpose is to make sure that it never happens again. In fact, I won't punish at all unless I'm sure that she has understood what the mistake was, and am convinced that she won't do it again. Otherwise, forget it, punishment won't even work. At that point, it's time to consider outright release.

MistressSassy66 -> RE: "punishment"="failure"? (11/17/2007 4:00:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen Is punishment an indication of "failure" or something else? I didn't want hijack a thread when I saw this post: quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo I punish rarely. In the 8 years I've owned Fox, I can count the number of times I've punished him on one hand. For me punishment is a sign for failure for both slave and owner. Repeated need for punishment is a signal that the relationship is no appropriate for those two people. They may find appropriate partners elsewhere but clearly they are not invest enough to maintain their Ds dynamic. So when I have had to punish I felt like a failure and I also felt sad, very sad. No worries I'm not picking on anybody...TammyJo just happens to express and articulate a belief well and it happens to be one I disagree with as well. I, personally, believe punishment is not a sign of failure but commitment. To punish one must have cause to correct and a commitment to assure the correction. Punishment maybe for the betterment of a s-type after a certain act. It maybe used to emphasis an undesired change or desired change in behaviour. It shows a commitment to follow through and a deep caring of accomplishment. Punishment is, or should be, a motivator. To give punishment one must also have someone who consents to the punishment. Punishment has to be accepted. Punishment, in my opinion, should be discussed afterwards to make it clear what's expected and what wasn't done that caused the correction. Accepting a punishment shows that one is willing to bear even pain to stay around and do things right. So now that there's at least two opinions here.... Anybody else have anything to share? IMO...even adults make mistakes and need to be punished. I see punishing as a way to emphasize,make it sink in, what it is they did wrong. A punishment could be anything from a scolding to a spanking.Or even just that look can be enough. Is it failure...I say no.I see it more as a learning process. When I am punishing I make sure they understand what it is I want. Repeat offenders are...I'm not sure what honestly. Looking for attention maybe,just like to pester...the reasons are endless and those are the ones that are not worth My time and that is a relationship I see as pointless.

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