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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 1:39:14 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I just don't see it. The sanctions were draconian, and there was no end to them in sight. If it were a reason for the invasion, logic strongly suggests that it would have been towards the end of the very long list.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Sanity, you are not quite right about this.  In Oil for Food, Cash (dollars)were payed into an account, which was then used to buy approved items (food and medicine).  Saddams plan to break the Petrodollar was indeed a part of the reason he was a threat to us.  It was a very serious threat.



So you presume your logic matches the governments huh?




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 1:41:59 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Yes more science fiction....Exactly how would a Solar dollar work?


You set a ground station wherever you want to sell electricity, and you take USD in payment for Giga-watt-hours delivered. ( discounted by "How Friendly are you to the US" multiplied by a "State Department Diplomacy Credit" I suppose ). Since you can sell it CHEAPER than your competitors selling oil, it's a slam-dunk.

quote:


Your idea of militarizing space <Giant microwave lazers> simply is not reasonable, despite it working in a book.


Don't think the Navy is up to the job? Why don't you go tell some sailors that.

quote:


BTW you have many times put the problem at the Civil war or even the signing of the Constitution, Fucking Hamilton right?. you are simply blowing smoke.


Why wouldn't that Amendment easily pass? It is definitly in the States interest to have a national energy infrastructure, with zero-pollution, and untold returns on the investment.

What returns are you getting for displacing millions of Iraqis, killing unknowable numbers, and suffering 60,000 US Casualties, and over 4000 deaths, AND the expense of a trillion dollars from the treasury?

What returns are *possible* fighting over oil in the sand? At least with the beamed-microwave, your kids could have ruled the Universe. Because you know what? The border is controlled by the person who owns the high-ground, and anyone else wanting access to orbit could have paid our rates or stayed the fuck home.

We *could have had* a REAL EMPIRE. Instead we just got Bush making a fucking mess in the sandbox.

quote:


People have to eat today and tomorow, so we need energy today, billions of lives depend on it.


Yeah, and if Reagan had done the right thing back when he ran things, the Saudi's wouldn't be calling the shots right now.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 1:53:23 PM   
luckydog1


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By 1987 several nations had the ability to boost a nuke into orbit.  Modern warfare has really sort of eliminated the High ground issue.  Having a nice fortification on top of a hill is simply an inviting target.  As is a sattalite..

Futhermore I totally disagree that having a few centralised stations for all power is a good idea at all.  Decentralised power is the way to go for many reasons.  Also the constant beaming of power through the Ozone layer would have terrible effects on your children.  They would be dealing with fallout from the war to get the things into space to begin with and heavy UV rays from the eliminated ozone layer.  Plus the regular blackouts, from putting all the eggs in one basket.

I really do not see how you are going to power a starship on Solar power, the sail Idea was stupid from day one, the person who thought it up obviously never sailed a boat.  There is nothing to put the keel and/or rudder against, so you could not steer the thing.  It would go straight away from the sun, then as it loses any propulsion from the sun it would just glide.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 1:54:19 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Why do you characterize my dislike for Bush's actions as hatred?


I didn't.
 
I used the term hatred and anger - hatred because it was in the topic line; anger because it was in the post I was responding to. If you don't feel hatred or anger, then my contribution to this debate, does not apply to you.
 
As a general principle, hate and anger based politics are not exclusive to any party ... they make no sense to me, no matter which politician is the targer.


Anger?  You don't think it is an appropriate response to be angered over what the Bush administration has done?

I'm apalled...Constantly outraged by what this man and his group of cronies have done.  Anyone who still clings to the notion that this guy is worthy of approval has lost the ability to look rationally at a given situation.

The list is so long that it is impossible to find a starting point...I guess that Scott McClellan is soon going to be the latest of prior Bush associates to come out to call the President a liar. 

What has been done to the constitution, our world standing, credibility, human rights, and to the lives, arms, eyes, legs and brains of our men and women in the service is beyond harboring a little anger towards this man.  In my eyes he no longer has value. He is a confirmed liar. He risked the lives and bodies of Americans to fulfill a war based on groundless facts, a prior agenda...A personal need for war.

He is a small, vindictive and worthless man.

_____________________________



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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 2:01:30 PM   
Real0ne


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnRPZOUVhJ4


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 2:42:41 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I really do not see how you are going to power a starship on Solar power, the sail Idea was stupid from day one, the person who thought it up obviously never sailed a boat.  There is nothing to put the keel and/or rudder against, so you could not steer the thing.  It would go straight away from the sun, then as it loses any propulsion from the sun it would just glide.


...though, to be fair, it could be gliding at an appreciable fraction of light speed.........

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 3:26:47 PM   
luckydog1


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True Philosophy.  Would you want to be on a ship hurling at near light speed with no ability to slow down or steer?  Seems like a rather bad idea to me.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 3:46:07 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

True Philosophy.  Would you want to be on a ship hurling at near light speed with no ability to slow down or steer?  Seems like a rather bad idea to me.


.....i never said the idea didn't have a few bugs in it
However, given that a sail would probably be launched at a star, it wouldn't be a bad way to put unmanned probes  on their way to other stars........and their solar wind could slow the things.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 3:47:43 PM   
Real0ne


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zpe


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 3:49:38 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



zpe



zero point energy? Still a few decades off isn't it though?

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 4:51:43 PM   
Sinergy


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Regarding those popping an erection for satellite based energy systems; fantasizing Independence Day or Death Star types of energy output from space, please review the following site.

http://www.wireless-center.net/Cisco-Wireless-Networking/754.html

The important part of this is quoted below.

"The affects of distance on the strength of EM waves in free space are given by the following
equation: P (proportional to) 1/r2 where P is power and r is the distance from the source to the receiver.The
inverse square relationship means that when the distance doubles (r × 2), the power received is reduced by a factor of four. Passing through objects (like, say atmosphere molecules) further attenuates EM waves.The amount of attenuation depends on the frequency of the wave and the thickness and composition of the object through which the wave is passing. Some objects, like mountains, attenuate 100 percent of the signal, thus blocking communication.This general attenuation equation gets worse when obstacles such as rain, buildings, mountains,
and so on are placed in the path of the signal.The resulting affect for terrestrial EM propagation can be estimated by the equation: P (proportional to) 1/r3 In this approximation, as the distance between transmitter and receiver doubles (r × 2), the power received is reduced by a factor of eight.

One way to minimize the amount the transmitted energy diverges is to use a directional antenna that focuses the waves in a specific direction. Figure 2.9 illustrates the previous example but uses an analogy of a flashlight to represent a directional antenna."

What this means is that the strength of signal attenuates dramatically based on the distance from the receiver to the ground station.  In other words, I collect energy from the sun (assuming I have a large enough source for energy shortage).  I then "beam" this energy down at my receiver.  The signal attenuates over distance as the aforementioned equation explains.  Additionally, there is a loss factor from transmission to receipt point.  Think of it like shining a flashlight at somebody a mile away.  Many of the photons sent from the flashlight never get to the receipt point.  For a space based energy system, simply use energy in place of photons.

What this means is that the total energy collected and stored in space never makes it from the point of transmission to the point of receipt.  In other words, assuming we collect X amount of solar power, only Y% of X makes it to the ground station.  

You could make a lazer in space to optimize this signal.  Of course, the size of the crystal required in space to have this level of precision and energy transmission simply boggle the imagination.

All of these things require objects which have mass.  At $10,000 a pound to lift something into space, it becomes a rather expensive proposition; one which probably dwarfs the boondoggle in Iraq.

What this level of energy transmission would do to the ozone layer or atmosphere remains to be studied once other countries (like China) who have rational and educated people in office, or we get rid of the Goon Ostrich Party clowns that would rather fritter our money away sticking their heads in the sand.



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 7:11:13 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

By 1987 several nations had the ability to boost a nuke into orbit. Modern warfare has really sort of eliminated the High ground issue


No it isn't, as you're already sitting up there, and anything tossed up at you needs to fight it's way up out of the gravity well, while you have plenty of time to aim and adjust the output of some microwave elements and destroy it.

Wow... Orbital Lasers can be useful for a missile defense. Who would have figured....



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 7:13:27 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


All of these things require objects which have mass. At $10,000 a pound to lift something into space, it becomes a rather expensive proposition; one which probably dwarfs the boondoggle in Iraq.


If we used the Trillion dollars invested in Iraq with no return for real R&D, we could get that cost-per-pound down to reasonable rates. Considering the National Security implications, you could reallocate ALL of the Department of Energy's budget, too.

And the operating inefficiencies only matter if you're working with limited resources. The sun never stops shining, so it's not like we have to capture and transmit every bit of energy.

The more you do it, the cheaper it gets. And we build the moonbase on 3rd shifts and weekends.

TRY to be a little forward thinking here. Didn't Americans used to pride themselves on a "Can Do" attitude?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/21/2007 7:17:02 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 7:58:36 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

And the operating inefficiencies only matter if you're working with limited resources.



You are working with limited resources.

That would be the resources used to collect, store, transmit energy to ground, then collect, store, and transmit that energy to consumer.

These are limited.

Regarding the Can Do comments, while the US did get us to the moon with that attitude, they had to contend with physics principles.  My points were about the physics involved with transmitting the suns energy down to earth.

It would make a lot more sense to me to use geothermal energy (similar to how Iceland runs their entire economy) or wave action, which are functions of the dynamics of the earth's core or the rotating of our planet, than to have wet dreams about adopting a Reagan-era Star Wars type of untested theoretical boondoggle like a giant antenna in space and a ray gun pointed at a collection station on earth.

In other words, the sun has a lot of energy, however the rotation of the earth gives us more energy than we can use, and is a lot easier and cheaper to harvest using principles the Icelanders already know how to use.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 8:27:00 PM   
luckydog1


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Farg, I guess if you could build, test, and deploy the entire thing in secret, and shock the world with its reality, you might have a point. 

But as that is just more outlandish fiction, not really relevant. 

Didnt the Chinese just destroy one of thier own sattalites with 1950s technology?  Such a system would be extremely vulnerable.

Its funny you scream about the absolute letter of the law all the time, yet you advocate tearing up several treaties (what does the constitution say about treaties, Mr Constitution?) and denying the use of space to every other nation, which would require hot war to enforce.

And you would still be putting all our eggs in one basket.  I don't want to build a  giant Fusion reactor either for the same reason.  One giant solar flare wipes out half the sattalites and our entire civilization crumbles, great plan.  It was a neat Idea from sci fi that ranks in practicality along with the Solar sail.  Why not be upset that we didn't attempt to build a hyper drive or a Stargate.  Those would at least be usefull if created.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 9:02:18 PM   
farglebargle


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I'll make a note for my kids to not sell your kids tickets off-planet, ok?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 9:10:42 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



zpe



zero point energy? Still a few decades off isn't it though?


Not sure, stanford is working on it, also sandia and we know what that means.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 10:04:12 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
What this means is that the strength of signal attenuates dramatically based on the distance from the receiver to the ground station.  In other words, I collect energy from the sun (assuming I have a large enough source for energy shortage).  I then "beam" this energy down at my receiver.  The signal attenuates over distance as the aforementioned equation explains.  Additionally, there is a loss factor from transmission to receipt point.




When you want to talk about this sort of thing (tho they are somewhat intertwined), you have to dump hertz and run with tesla.  you wont get anywhere near the propagation loss with lemr.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/22/2007 7:13:32 AM   
farglebargle


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From the SFF Interim Working Groups recent report.

http://spacesolarpower.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/final-sbsp-interim-assessment-release-01.pdf

quote:


Several major challenges will need to be overcome to make SBSP a reality, including the creation of low‐
cost space access and a supporting infrastructure system on Earth and in space. Solving these space
access and operations challenges for SBSP will in turn also open space for a host of other activities that
include space tourism, manufacturing, lunar or asteroid resource utilization, and eventually settlement
to extend the human race. Because DoD would not want to own SBSP satellites, but rather just
purchase the delivered energy as it currently does via traditional terrestrial utilities, a repeated review
finding is that the commercial sector will need Government to accomplish three major tasks to catalyze
SBSP development. The first is to retire a major portion of the early technical risks. This can be
accomplished via an incremental research and development program that culminates with a space‐
borne proof‐of‐concept demonstration in the next decade. A spiral development proposal to field a 10
MW continuous pilot plant en route to gigawatts‐class systems is included in Appendix B. The second
challenge is to facilitate the policy, regulatory, legal, and organizational instruments that will be
necessary to create the partnerships and relationships (commercial‐commercial, government‐
commercial, and government‐government) needed for this concept to succeed. The final Government
contribution is to become a direct early adopter and to incentivize other early adopters much as is
accomplished on a regular basis with other renewable energy systems coming on‐line today.


quote:


From the perspective of today’s launch infrastructure, this may seem unimaginably large and ambitious,
but in another sense it is well within the relative scale of other human accomplishments which at their
time also seemed astounding creations‐‐the Eiffel Tower is 8,045 Tons; the Sear’s Tower 222,500 tons;
the Empire State Building 365,000 – 392,000 tons, the largest of our supertankers is 650,000MT, and the
Great Pyramid at Giza is 5,900,000 MT. Contemplating a space solar power satellite today is probably
analogous to contemplating the building of the large hydro‐electric dams, which even today cause
observers to marvel.

Today the United States initiates less than 15 launches per year (at 25MT or less). Construction of a
single SBSP satellite alone would require in excess of 120 such launches. That may seem like an
astounding operations tempo until one considers the volume of other transportation infrastructure.
For instance, in 2005, Atlanta International Airport saw 980,197 takeoffs & landings alone, an average of
1,342 takeoffs/day, or about 1 every minute 24 hours a day. In the same year, Singapore’s 41 ship cargo
berths served 130,318 vessel arrivals (about 15 per hour), handling about 1.15 billion gross tons (GT), and
23.2 million twenty‐foot equivalent units (TFUs).

Technology adoption can move at astounding speeds once a concept has been demonstrated and a
market is created. Who would have imagined that barely 100 years after the single wood & cloth, 338
kg Wright Flier flew only 120 feet at a mere 30 mph, that the world would have fleets of thousands of
jet‐powered, all‐metal giants weighing as much as 590,000 kg cruising between continents at close to
the speed of sound? Who, as the first miles were being laid, would have foreseen the rate at which
railroads, highways, electrification or communications infrastructure would grow? SBSP calls mankind
to look at the means to achieve orbit and in‐space maneuver differently—not as monuments in
themselves, but as a utilitarian infrastructure purposefully designed to achieve a very worthwhile goal.


quote:


APPENDIX B – DEMONSTRATION ROADMAP
AN AGGRESSIVE AND ACHIEVABLE SBSP TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATOR ROADMAP:
10 Years – 10 Megawatts – $10 Billion


Introduction
One of the fundamental challenges of space solar power is how to achieve the critical transition from analytical
studies, concepts and component science and technology (S&T) to large‐scale operational systems. The
technology road map formulated by NASA in the late 1990s envisioned a series of five stages, each five years in
duration, and each involving significant advances in component technologies and increases in power levels.
This 25‐year roadmap also envisioned potential changes in the design concepts at each stage, perhaps
including fundamental changes in the systems being demonstrated at each stage.
Because of the significant technological progress that has been achieved in the past decade, it is now possible
to envision a more straightforward approach that could significantly accelerate the pace of SBSP technology /
system maturation and validation. This new strategy would focus efforts through an integrated large‐scale
demonstrator, to be flown in less than 10 years, at a cost of less than $10B, and delivering power to the Earth of
approximately 10 megawatts.




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/22/2007 8:50:03 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Simple question: How many good decisions have people made, out of hatred and anger?




Not a simple question. It presupposes that negative emotions amount to poor decisionmaking or judgment.

In the case of Bush and in the case of politics, one is not engaged in "heat of the moment" anger or hatred. No, one is engaged by cumulative feelings built up over time --- after considering actions, policies, and rhetoric for years.

In such a case, hatred and anger might lead to excellent decision-making and higher motivation to change perceived wrongs.

quote:

Domiguy: Anger? You don't think it is an appropriate response to be angered over what the Bush administration has done?


Caitlyn in many ways is a Bush apologist. At the same time, she sees him as a result of our own democracy, and she tends to be more critical of our democratic process and civic mindedness than of who is steering the ship. In a way she is smart to be more concerned with the root causes of poor government than the current incantation of it.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/22/2007 9:33:12 AM >

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