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RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/29/2007 10:56:31 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

There is a word for people who aggressively rush toward a problem and stick their noses in, while everyone else is going the other way... I'll bet you even know what that word is, don't you?




Fools.

As is in " Fools rush in ,where angels fear to tread"

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 11/29/2007 10:57:52 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 12:37:22 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

All Rights are INALIENABLE. PRIVILEGES may be granted and revoked.


Wierd thing though, you can be put in jail (liberty),


I guess y'all don't remember DUE PROCESS.

I realize I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with people who SUPPORT letting Police torture people arbitrarily.

Why even bother?


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/30/2007 12:40:45 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 1:02:45 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Refusing to comply with a lawfull order is not arbitrary.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 2:00:32 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Actually Farg I included the caveat of Due Process in my post, you cut that part out for some reason.  But you do seem to love edited quotes, and base most of your arguments on them.

Yes there is little point in you pretending things that are specific are arbitrary,

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 5:02:49 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Refusing to comply with a lawfull order is not arbitrary.


That is a military thing. refusing to comply with a cop is not always jail time.  But if they are a horrid prick, well, it aint the first time I have been in jail, or pounded the dogshit out of a policeman.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 7:51:33 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Refusing to comply with a lawfull order is not arbitrary.


Where is the permission to torture people who are disobedient, without order or oversight delegated?

The permission to use force to effect an arrest ( In this instance, in Utah ) is codified under 77-7-7, and is dependent on the proper adherence to 77-7-6, WHICH IN THIS INSTANCE WAS NOT FOLLOWED.

Therefore, to suggest that this driver was NOT arbitrarily tased is dishonest.

Once again, I wonder why I bother trying to have a reasonable discussion with apologists for torturers, and Totalitarian Appeasers.


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 8:19:24 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe it's the kind of board we're on. Some of us may be using tasers in non-standard manners already.

Here's how to even the playing field:
http://www.beststungun.com/

Never leave home without it...



(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 8:27:43 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

Given your VERY, VERY LIBERAL interpretation of Utah 77-7-6, that wouldn't surprise me.


You mis-spelled 'Literal'.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 9:02:01 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"(a) there is reason to believe the notice will endanger the life or safety of the officer or another person or will likely enable the party being arrested to escape;"

I've already detailed your inability to support your claim of that exemption.

That's where the video-tape is so damning to this officer. The ONLY reason he deployed his torture device, is because HE WAS FRUSTRATED AND LOST HIS COOL.

In retrospect, the people hiring for UHP should have caught the mentally unstable officer candidate before he was ever permitted to join the force, but AT LEAST THIS VICTIM DIDN'T GET KILLED, so it's good he's off the street sooner rather than later...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 9:04:20 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		"Reason to believe'...not 'Reason that FB will accept'.

As the USSC said armchair quarterbacking is worthless as an indicator of excessive force, and armchair quarterbacking is all you've shown so far..

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:00:14 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		What "reason to believe" was there that the officer's safety was in any doubt, preventing him from notifying the Victim of his authority and intent?

Which still never answers, what prevented the officer from satisfying 77-7-6 PRIOR to ordering the Victim out of his car in the first place.

Poor Hiring, Poor Training, Poor Supervision. We'll see how the Discipline and Termination phases work out, but I expect UHP will avoid liability for this nutjob's psycho-episode.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:13:57 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"(a) there is reason to believe the notice will endanger the life or safety of the officer or another person or will likely enable the party being arrested to escape;"


Farg you have to look at the "OR".

If the officer simply stood there giving a speech while the suspect walked away and got in his car, it would likely enable him to escape.  And getting into a fist fight on the side of the road would endanger the officer and the perp.  The officer in question most certainly did adhere to your cited clause A.  And the use of force met the standard outlined in the law.  You wanting to pretend that only the first part of the clause matters, is simply you attempting to edit the facts.  And is incredibly dishonest of you, but that's par for the course with you. 

"Or" does not mean "and". 

The event was video taped and will certainly be examined, hence there is oversight and supervision.  And authority is delgated to Police Officers, by the state.

Other than you hating Police Officers, the Law and the USA what exactly is your argument?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 11:05:36 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"(a) there is reason to believe the notice will endanger the life or safety of the officer or another person or will likely enable the party being arrested to escape;"

Farg you have to look at the "OR".



It is inapplicable in this case. Sure, it *might* apply in other circumstances. That's why the legislature explicitly carved out that exemption.

However, it's CLEAR from the video tape, and the officer's own actions and words both prior and subsequent to the torture, that FLIGHT was never a concern. If it *was* a concern, then the suspect would have been IMMEDIATELY confined to the cage in the back of the patrol car.

quote:


If the officer simply stood there giving a speech"


Why do you mis-characterize the DUTY of informing the arrestee, "You are Under arrest for _Fill in Charge_"? as anything more than the few seconds it is?

That neglects, "Why wasn't 77-7-6 followed PRIOR to ordering the victim out of the vehicle?" or at any other time EVEN AFTER DRAWING THE TORTURE DEVICE?

quote:


while the suspect walked away and got in his car, it would likely enable him to escape.


It is MORE LIKELY that if the Victim was PROPERLY ARRESTED, he wouldn't have attempted to walk away from the crazy person. I have no problem with people submitting to LAWFUL authority. In this case, the officer screwed up all along the line.

Maybe it's the "New York" thing, and we have higher standards than some hick in Utah?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 1:53:19 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Notifying the vicitim of his authority?  You've never even read Mendenhall have you FB? 

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 2:13:56 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Notifying the vicitim of his authority? You've never even read Mendenhall have you FB?


Is your reading comprehension so poor, that you do not see the word AUTHORITY in Utah 77-7-6(1) ?

quote:


77-7-6. Manner of making arrest.
(1) The person making the arrest shall inform the person being arrested of his intention, cause, and authority to arrest him.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/30/2007 2:14:13 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 2:39:42 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
first off tasers are leathal.  maybe not to every person on the planet but they do kill people hence they are lethal.


If you drink too much water it is lethal.  Hence you should stop drinking water? 
 
Your argument is so flawed.

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 3:03:47 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
We have become a country of pussies.  Don't question shit and if you ever have contact with a cop it is because you were doing something wrong.  They are always right...The kid wasn't swearing or being disrespectful...I think he was really confused by the situation and how quickly the cop unnecessarily allowed it to escalate. 


As the cop told him "the side of the road is not the place to argue".
 
The policeman did not pull this guy over because he liked him - the little kid was speeding.  The kid should have STFU and signed the ticket.  You're right - the kid was a pussy.  A young, inexperenced pussy that will be able to tell his kids they should not fuck with the police.
 
You know, if motorists had never tried to shoot, run over, stab or beat up police officers who were trying to give them a simple fucking ticket, then the police would probably be a whole lot nicer and a little more empathetic. 
 
My question is: why didn't the little peckerhead want to sign the ticket?  All of you armchair lawyers (that know "their is no law that says you have to sign it") should know that signing a ticket doesn't mean you are guilty, either - so giving a police office a hard time about it makes no sense.  Especially since it can escalate into something like going to jail.

< Message edited by Invictus754 -- 11/30/2007 3:16:37 PM >

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 3:05:47 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Notifying the vicitim of his authority? You've never even read Mendenhall have you FB?


Is your reading comprehension so poor, that you do not see the word AUTHORITY in Utah 77-7-6(1) ?

quote:


77-7-6. Manner of making arrest.
(1) The person making the arrest shall inform the person being arrested of his intention, cause, and authority to arrest him.



The poor reading comprehension comes in to play with your insistence that the above cite contains the words 'prior to '.

The USSC in the controlling case on this issue clearly stated that any reasonable person confronted by a badge, uniform, drawn weapon, raised voice, et al. would understand that they were not free to leave, i.e. under arrest.
That means that the official announcement of said arrest need not be made at any particular time.

That also makes this individual's actions part of the 'reason to believe' that they were attempting to avoid an arrest, thus opening the door for use of force to obtain compliance.

Feel free to explain how the Court doesn't understand the law, compared to your 'expertise'...should be amusing.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 3:10:29 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Maybe it's the kind of board we're on. Some of us may be using tasers in non-standard manners already.

Here's how to even the playing field:
http://www.beststungun.com/

Never leave home without it...





I like the baton.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 3:11:32 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Is your reading comprehension so poor, that you do not see the word AUTHORITY in Utah 77-7-6(1) ?
quote:


77-7-6. Manner of making arrest.
(1) The person making the arrest shall inform the person being arrested of his intention, cause, and authority to arrest him.

I think it could be argued that his authority was apparent - he was a officer of the law.  You forgot to include the remainder of 77-7-6:
quote:

Such notice shall not be required when:
    (a) there is reason to believe the notice will endanger the life or safety of the officer or another person or will likely enable the party being arrested to escape;
    (b) the person being arrested is actually engaged in the commission of, or an attempt to commit, an offense; or
    (c) the person being arrested is pursued immediately after the commission of an offense or an escape.


Since the lad was "engaged in the commission of" the officer probably didn't have to actually TELL him " I am a police offier of the state and I have the authority to arrest you under statute 77-7-6"
 
77-7-7 also goes on to add:
quote:

 77-7-7.   Force in making arrest.
    If a person is being arrested and flees or forcibly resists after being informed of the intention to make the arrest, the person arresting may use reasonable force to effect the arrest. Deadly force may be used only as provided in Section 76-2-404.



_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 160
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