RE: What are legitimate hard limits?

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:16:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 I agree i guess my approach is just somewhat different. It's sort of the same issue i have with safewords. Just because a limit is expressed and in place does not guarantee that someone is going to respect it. I think that limits can create a false sense of security. If i can talk to my partner about how certain activities make me feel and trust that he doesn't want to cause me emotional damage than i feel no need to state something as a limit. If i can't communicate with someone in this way then why should i trust him not to break a limit i have imposed? Why on earth do you think that just because someone makes something a limit they don't trust their partner? A limit is just something that I won't do. It doesn't mean I think he is going to order me to do it. In all of mine, he agrees that these things shouldn't be done. But his agreeing with me doesn't magically make that limit go away. Just because he agrees with me that I shouldn't kill someone for him doesn't mean that limit has gone away. It is still there - it just doesn't matter because it won't ever be an isuse. quote: Setting limits will work for many ( i did it in the beginning as well) but i believe it works most effectively when done in a much more conversational manner rather than a laundry list presented to someone. So is your issue more with how limits are presented? Just because people have limits doesn't mean the submissive handed their dominant a laundry list of things. We don't even have them written down anywhere. No offical "thou shalt not do this" document, just things we have talked about and agreed on.

bestbabync -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:26:18 PM)
so i gather this: limits are a personal preference. a Dom may find no prob with a subs limits. a sub maybe limitless. a Dom may want a sub that is limitless. just because a sub or Dom has limits it does not make them less real. it is preference. i totally agree!

Jeffff -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:28:08 PM)
Everyone is a fake and poser to someone........fuck em Jeff

charlotte12 -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:36:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 I agree i guess my approach is just somewhat different. It's sort of the same issue i have with safewords. Just because a limit is expressed and in place does not guarantee that someone is going to respect it. I think that limits can create a false sense of security. If i can talk to my partner about how certain activities make me feel and trust that he doesn't want to cause me emotional damage than i feel no need to state something as a limit. If i can't communicate with someone in this way then why should i trust him not to break a limit i have imposed? Why on earth do you think that just because someone makes something a limit they don't trust their partner? A limit is just something that I won't do. It doesn't mean I think he is going to order me to do it. In all of mine, he agrees that these things shouldn't be done. But his agreeing with me doesn't magically make that limit go away. Just because he agrees with me that I shouldn't kill someone for him doesn't mean that limit has gone away. It is still there - it just doesn't matter because it won't ever be an isuse. I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that. quote: ORIGINAL: aquaticsub quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 Setting limits will work for many ( i did it in the beginning as well) but i believe it works most effectively when done in a much more conversational manner rather than a laundry list presented to someone. So is your issue more with how limits are presented? Just because people have limits doesn't mean the submissive handed their dominant a laundry list of things. We don't even have them written down anywhere. No offical "thou shalt not do this" document, just things we have talked about and agreed on. Yes, as you said i simply like to present them in a different way. For us they are things that we have talked about to the point where i know that he understands how cutting me with his knife would make me feel (for example.) We have not agreed on this as a specific limit but we have agreed that he is always looking out for my wellbeing. It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship. I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out. [:)]

TotalState -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:42:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that. <snip> It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship. I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out. [:)] More accurately, though, that is what the rest of us like to call "a limit". Why insist on using different wording in a public forum to confuse things?

charlotte12 -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:51:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TotalState quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that. <snip> It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship. I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out. [:)] More accurately, though, that is what the rest of us like to call "a limit". Why insist on using different wording in a public forum to confuse things? Because i find it enjoyable to discuss different approaches to things and i have learned and re-evaluated my own approach many a time because of things people have said in these kinds of discussions. Sometimes they can be annoying or too much focused on semantics but if we all decided to subscribe to only one definition of the labels and words we see thrown around here than life would be pretty boring. Plus i seem to be in a particularily thoughtful mood today. You might notice a few posts in which i question the meaning behind things. charlotte

subtee -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:51:45 PM)
"Legitimate" hard limits are the little offspring of Hard Limits (Mr. and Mrs.) who are recognized by law as being legally wed. "Illegitimate" hard limits are therefore bastards.

batshalom -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 12:56:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Understanding their own needs, creating and defending boundaries/lmits is a crucial part of that self care. You just saved me a whole lot of typing and too much thinking. Your succint answer is well appreciated.

sexyred1 -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 1:01:14 PM)
I have a new legitimate hard limit; someone asking me what my hard limits are. I really am sick of it. If someone gets to a point with me where that would be a concern, I will gladly let them know, but all the preliminary questioning sounds like going over a resume to me. I have found in my life, that my limits changed according to whom I was with, so any answer I would give, would be a fluid one. I also find the discussion of limits and pushing limits to be boring; since anything you do with a partner is open for discussion, or should be, at least in my opinion. I would rather discuss what we like, rather than what we don't want to do, initially. Plus, most people put down the same few hard limits in profiles, verbally when you chat, so what is the point?

SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 1:15:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff Everyone is a fake and poser to someone........fuck em Jeff dammit.....i want that on a bumper sticker, a tshirt, and maybe a flag to fly also..... i shoulda thought of that line dang it[8D]

juliaoceania -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 1:27:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee "Legitimate" hard limits are the little offspring of Hard Limits (Mr. and Mrs.) who are recognized by law as being legally wed. "Illegitimate" hard limits are therefore bastards. Bastards!

YourhandMyAss -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 1:27:24 PM)
Depends on the person. Some limits won't change or go away no matter how much you love the person, nor how long you've been with the person. quote: ORIGINAL: bestbabync i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever. i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away. am i wrong?

pinakorbacs -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 2:57:50 PM)
Juliaoceania, Thank you for your example of another 'ilegitimate' (OK not in the legal sennse , just for lack of a better word..) conservative politics!. Another obscure and utterly subjective term. Can you define "conservative politics"? Is pro-life conservative? How about the war in Iraq? How about someone who is supportive of this administartion's policies on Iraq but is also in favor of free -choice? Is he a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal...? And what specifically in the term 'conservative politics' makes it a hard limit for you? Your partner being an active conservative politician or merely having views that YOU consider conservative? So it boils down to your partner having to share your political views or else... 'Being ignored' also falls in this broad category of subjectivism, what is "ignoring"? Not talking to a person for 2 hours is ignoring ? or ignoring kicks in only after 8 hrs?

Stephann -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 3:13:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TotalState quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that. <snip> It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship. I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out. [:)] More accurately, though, that is what the rest of us like to call "a limit". Why insist on using different wording in a public forum to confuse things? Frankly, because it's not a limit. Limits say "never, no way, if you make me do this, I would lose faith in you as a person and probably terminate the relationship." If a man was about to shoot me, and I told her to kill that man, I suspect she'd quickly, gladly, and immediately obey. Thus, obviously, killing isn't a limit; it's an activity that is acceptable, but only under certain circumstances. So, sure it might just be semantics; but I think the semantics reflect a distinctly different approach to obedience. I consider limits to be 'hard' rules. The submissive says "if you do this, it will damage me and/or cause me to end the relationship we now share." A woman who was beaten with a baseball bat might, then, say canes are a hard limit because of the emotional reaction it triggers in her. For our relationship, I make it clear that there is no action that is 'off limits.' That it is up to the woman to surrender her 'right' to refuse me, save her choice to simply revoke consent It's a bit like walking a tightrope without a net; more dangerous, but (at least for me) more thrilling. Obviously, this dynamic isn't for everyone. Instead of permitting limits, I rely on communication and their trust in me to care for them in a manner that pleases me. They trust, then, that I won't order one to shoot a man, without just cause, or to suffer a cane unless I truly wished to push them through that experience. That example would be a powerful demonstration of their trust in me, since I've already earned a degree of trust that says "you know me well enough to know how far I can go." Stephan

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 3:55:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bestbabync i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever. i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away. am i wrong? I look forward to the day when you don't need anyone else to tell you what is good sense and judgement that you already know within yourself. No one has brought up the difference between limit and limitation yet, I find that interesting. Let's not forget that masters have limits for themselves and their relationships as well.

Stephann -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 3:58:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: bestbabync i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever. i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away. am i wrong? I look forward to the day when you don't need anyone else to tell you what is good sense and judgement that you already know within yourself. No one has brought up the difference between limit and limitation yet, I find that interesting. Let's not forget that masters have limits for themselves and their relationships as well. Hiya LA, I'd love to hear your take on it? Stephan

deeddlit -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 4:59:39 PM)
Legitimate is relative. We all have our own limits...in and out of lifestyle. I suppose when I use the term "hard limit" it means this subject is off limits for me. I don't even want to discuss it, let alone do it...for whatever reason. Some are because they disgust me...others are because they bring back horrible memories from my past that I do not care to re-live even in a discussion and some exist just because that is the way I am wired. Whatever the reason...they are MY hard limits...and to ME they are very legitimate! I chose to disclose these asap because, in my mind anyway, this allows others to decide, for themselves, right away if we have a greater or nill chance of making a connection. I do not feel that hard limits define me or anyone else but they do give us all just a little insight into eachother.. Just my 2cents

batshalom -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 5:35:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs 'Being ignored' also falls in this broad category of subjectivism, what is "ignoring"? Not talking to a person for 2 hours is ignoring ? or ignoring kicks in only after 8 hrs? What does time have to do with it? Fear is not logical or rational. Limits are limits, pinakorbacs, regardless if you want to dissect or disagree with them. They don't come with stopwatches or escape clauses and they don't have to make sense to you.

Machts -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 5:37:14 PM)
Hard limits are to define when you stop with someone. The line in the sand..step over, fall off.

juliaoceania -> RE: What are legitimate hard limits? (11/28/2007 5:57:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs Juliaoceania, Thank you for your example of another 'ilegitimate' (OK not in the legal sennse , just for lack of a better word..) conservative politics!. Another obscure and utterly subjective term. Can you define "conservative politics"? Is pro-life conservative? How about the war in Iraq? How about someone who is supportive of this administartion's policies on Iraq but is also in favor of free -choice? Is he a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal...? And what specifically in the term 'conservative politics' makes it a hard limit for you? Your partner being an active conservative politician or merely having views that YOU consider conservative? So it boils down to your partner having to share your political views or else... 'Being ignored' also falls in this broad category of subjectivism, what is "ignoring"? Not talking to a person for 2 hours is ignoring ? or ignoring kicks in only after 8 hrs? My Daddy gets what I mean by "conservative politics", and since he is the only person close enough to me to even have a remote chance of exceeding my limits, I suppose he is the only one that can consider them "illegit"... thanks for playing.

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