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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:16:52 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

I agree i guess my approach is just somewhat different. It's sort of the same issue i have with safewords. Just because a limit is expressed and in place does not guarantee that someone is going to respect it. I think that limits can create a false sense of security. If i can talk to my partner about how certain activities make me feel and trust that he doesn't want to cause me emotional damage than i feel no need to state something as a limit. If i can't communicate with someone in this way then why should i trust him not to break a limit i have imposed?

Why on earth do you think that just because someone makes something a limit they don't trust their partner? A limit is just something that I won't do. It doesn't mean I think he is going to order me to do it. In all of mine, he agrees that these things shouldn't be done. But his agreeing with me doesn't magically make that limit go away. Just because he agrees with me that I shouldn't kill someone for him doesn't mean that limit has gone away. It is still there - it just doesn't matter because it won't ever be an isuse.
quote:


Setting limits will work for many ( i did it in the beginning as well) but i believe it works most effectively when done in a much more conversational manner rather than a laundry list presented to someone.

So is your issue more with how limits are presented? Just because people have limits doesn't mean the submissive handed their dominant a laundry list of things. We don't even have them written down anywhere. No offical "thou shalt not do this" document, just things we have talked about and agreed on.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to charlotte12)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:26:18 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		so i gather this:
limits are a personal preference.  a Dom may find no prob with a subs limits.  a sub maybe limitless.  a Dom may want a sub that is limitless.  just because a sub or Dom has limits it does not make them less real.  it is preference.
i totally agree!

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:28:08 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Everyone is a fake and poser to someone........fuck em

Jeff

(in reply to bestbabync)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:36:28 PM   
charlotte12


Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

I agree i guess my approach is just somewhat different. It's sort of the same issue i have with safewords. Just because a limit is expressed and in place does not guarantee that someone is going to respect it. I think that limits can create a false sense of security. If i can talk to my partner about how certain activities make me feel and trust that he doesn't want to cause me emotional damage than i feel no need to state something as a limit. If i can't communicate with someone in this way then why should i trust him not to break a limit i have imposed?

Why on earth do you think that just because someone makes something a limit they don't trust their partner? A limit is just something that I won't do. It doesn't mean I think he is going to order me to do it. In all of mine, he agrees that these things shouldn't be done. But his agreeing with me doesn't magically make that limit go away. Just because he agrees with me that I shouldn't kill someone for him doesn't mean that limit has gone away. It is still there - it just doesn't matter because it won't ever be an isuse.

I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aquaticsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12 Setting limits will work for many ( i did it in the beginning as well) but i believe it works most effectively when done in a much more conversational manner rather than a laundry list presented to someone.


So is your issue more with how limits are presented? Just because people have limits doesn't mean the submissive handed their dominant a laundry list of things. We don't even have them written down anywhere. No offical "thou shalt not do this" document, just things we have talked about and agreed on.


Yes, as you said i simply like to present them in a different way. For us they are things that we have talked about to the point where i know that he understands how cutting me with his knife would make me feel (for example.) We have not agreed on this as a specific limit but we have agreed that he is always looking out for my wellbeing. It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship.  I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out.





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(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:42:17 PM   
TotalState


Posts: 278
Joined: 9/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that.

<snip>

It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship.  I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out.

More accurately, though, that is what the rest of us like to call "a limit".  Why insist on using different wording in a public forum to confuse things?


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Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to charlotte12)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:51:29 PM   
charlotte12


Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that.

<snip>

It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship.  I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out.

More accurately, though, that is what the rest of us like to call "a limit".  Why insist on using different wording in a public forum to confuse things?



Because i find it enjoyable to discuss different approaches to things and i have  learned and re-evaluated my own approach many a time because of things people have said in these kinds of discussions. Sometimes they can be annoying or too much focused on semantics but if we all decided to subscribe to only one definition of the labels and words we see thrown around here than life would be pretty boring.

Plus i seem to be in a particularily thoughtful mood today. You might notice a few posts in which i question the meaning behind things.

charlotte

_____________________________

Stephan's slaveling

"I'm not superior, I'm just more important." Master (Stephann)

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to TotalState)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:51:45 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		"Legitimate" hard limits are the little offspring of Hard Limits (Mr. and Mrs.) who are recognized by law as being legally wed.

"Illegitimate" hard limits are therefore bastards. 

(in reply to TotalState)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 12:56:30 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Understanding their own needs, creating and defending boundaries/lmits is a crucial part of that self care. 


You just saved me a whole lot of typing and too much thinking. Your succint answer is well appreciated.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 1:01:14 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I have a new legitimate hard limit; someone asking me what my hard limits are. I really am sick of it.

If someone gets to a point with me where that would be a concern, I will gladly let them know, but all the preliminary questioning sounds like going over a resume to me.

I have found in my life, that my limits changed according to whom I was with, so any answer I would give, would be a fluid one.

I also find the discussion of limits and pushing limits to be boring; since anything you do with a partner is open for discussion, or should be, at least in my opinion.

I would rather discuss what we like, rather than what we don't want to do, initially. Plus, most people put down the same few hard limits in profiles, verbally when you chat, so what is the point?

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 11/28/2007 1:02:16 PM >

(in reply to batshalom)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 1:15:03 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Everyone is a fake and poser to someone........fuck em

Jeff


dammit.....i want that on a bumper sticker, a tshirt, and maybe a flag to fly also.....

i shoulda thought of that line dang it

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 1:27:07 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

"Legitimate" hard limits are the little offspring of Hard Limits (Mr. and Mrs.) who are recognized by law as being legally wed.

"Illegitimate" hard limits are therefore bastards. 


Bastards!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to subtee)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 1:27:24 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Depends on the person.

Some limits won't change or go away no matter how much you love the person, nor how long you've been with the person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync



i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever.  i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away.

am i wrong?

(in reply to bestbabync)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 2:57:50 PM   
pinakorbacs


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline 		Juliaoceania,
Thank you for your example of another 'ilegitimate' (OK not in the legal sennse , just for lack of a better word..) conservative politics!. Another obscure and utterly subjective term.  Can you define "conservative politics"? Is pro-life conservative? How about the war in Iraq? How about someone who is supportive of this administartion's policies on Iraq but is also in favor of free -choice? Is he a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal...? And what specifically in the term 'conservative politics' makes it a hard limit for you? Your partner being an active conservative politician or merely having views that YOU consider conservative?
So it boils down to your partner having to share your political views or else...
'Being ignored' also falls in this broad category of subjectivism, what is "ignoring"? Not talking to a person for 2 hours is ignoring ? or ignoring kicks in only after 8 hrs?     

(in reply to Vanatru)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 3:13:08 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that.

<snip>

It's simply a subtle difference that clarifies things in my mind for me and my relationship.  I'm sorry if i came across as suggesting anything other than that this is my own approach. Thank you for pointing that out.

More accurately, though, that is what the rest of us like to call "a limit".  Why insist on using different wording in a public forum to confuse things?



Frankly, because it's not a limit.

Limits say "never, no way, if you make me do this, I would lose faith in you as a person and probably terminate the relationship."

If a man was about to shoot me, and I told her to kill that man, I suspect she'd quickly, gladly, and immediately obey.  Thus, obviously, killing isn't a limit; it's an activity that is acceptable, but only under certain circumstances.

So, sure it might just be semantics; but I think the semantics reflect a distinctly different approach to obedience.  I consider limits to be 'hard' rules.  The submissive says "if you do this, it will damage me and/or cause me to end the relationship we now share."  A woman who was beaten with a baseball bat might, then, say canes are a hard limit because of the emotional reaction it triggers in her.

For our relationship, I make it clear that there is no action that is 'off limits.'  That it is up to the woman to surrender her 'right' to refuse me, save her choice to simply revoke consent  It's a bit like walking a tightrope without a net; more dangerous, but (at least for me) more thrilling.  Obviously, this dynamic isn't for everyone.  Instead of permitting limits, I rely on communication and their trust in me to care for them in a manner that pleases me.  They trust, then, that I won't order one to shoot a man, without just cause, or to suffer a cane unless I truly wished to push them through that experience.  That example would be a powerful demonstration of their trust in me, since I've already earned a degree of trust that says "you know me well enough to know how far I can go." 

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to TotalState)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 3:55:38 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync
i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever.  i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away.

am i wrong?

I look forward to the day when you don't need anyone else to tell you what is good sense and judgement that you already know within yourself.

No one has brought up the difference between limit and limitation yet, I find that interesting.

Let's not forget that masters have limits for themselves and their relationships as well.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to bestbabync)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 3:58:54 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync
i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever.  i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away.

am i wrong?

I look forward to the day when you don't need anyone else to tell you what is good sense and judgement that you already know within yourself.

No one has brought up the difference between limit and limitation yet, I find that interesting.

Let's not forget that masters have limits for themselves and their relationships as well.


Hiya LA,

I'd love to hear your take on it?

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 4:59:39 PM   
deeddlit


Posts: 484
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Legitimate is relative.  We all have our own limits...in and out of lifestyle. 

I suppose when I use the term "hard limit" it means this subject is off limits for me.  I don't even want to discuss it, let alone do it...for whatever reason.  Some are because they disgust me...others are because they bring back horrible memories from my past that I do not care to re-live even in a discussion and some exist just because that is the way I am wired.  Whatever the reason...they are MY hard limits...and to ME they are very legitimate! 

I chose to disclose these asap because, in my mind anyway, this allows others to decide, for themselves, right away if we have a greater or nill chance of making a connection. 

I do not feel that hard limits define me or anyone else but they do give us all just a little insight into eachother..

Just my 2cents

(in reply to bestbabync)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 5:35:46 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs

'Being ignored' also falls in this broad category of subjectivism, what is "ignoring"? Not talking to a person for 2 hours is ignoring ? or ignoring kicks in only after 8 hrs?     


What does time have to do with it? Fear is not logical or rational. Limits are limits, pinakorbacs, regardless if you want to dissect or disagree with them. They don't come with stopwatches or escape clauses and they don't have to make sense to you.

(in reply to pinakorbacs)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 5:37:14 PM   
Machts


Posts: 96
Status: offline 		Hard limits are to define when you stop with someone.

The line in the sand..step over, fall off.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 5:57:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs

Juliaoceania,
Thank you for your example of another 'ilegitimate' (OK not in the legal sennse , just for lack of a better word..) conservative politics!. Another obscure and utterly subjective term.  Can you define "conservative politics"? Is pro-life conservative? How about the war in Iraq? How about someone who is supportive of this administartion's policies on Iraq but is also in favor of free -choice? Is he a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal...? And what specifically in the term 'conservative politics' makes it a hard limit for you? Your partner being an active conservative politician or merely having views that YOU consider conservative?
So it boils down to your partner having to share your political views or else...
'Being ignored' also falls in this broad category of subjectivism, what is "ignoring"? Not talking to a person for 2 hours is ignoring ? or ignoring kicks in only after 8 hrs?     


My Daddy gets what I mean by "conservative politics", and since he is the only person close enough to me to even have a remote chance of exceeding my limits, I suppose he is the only one that can consider them "illegit"... thanks for playing.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pinakorbacs)
Profile   Post #: 60
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