The real cost of terrorism.

The real cost of terrorism. (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> The real cost of terrorism. (12/14/2007 6:27:43 PM)
The sad case of Stella Baker and her treatment at the hands of immigration officials in the U.S., it is possible their attention was drawn to the fact that her British Passport stated she was female, yet they discovered not.How this 'discovery' came into being I can only speculate, but I do see why a ' big red flag' would be waving in their eyes, with the recent security state and high possibility of terrorist action. But thinking on this, this deplorable treatment of a UK citizens rights, what has caused this change in the U.S.That change I do believe is terrorists So the real damage terrorists cause is suspicion, the fear they create through threats and occaisional terrorist actions erodes society.It comes to a point when suspicion is so rife that everyone is a suspect to everyone and everyone suspects everyone.Trust has gone, anyone that does not 'fit in', may be classed as an undesireable.Scary is'nt it? This to me is the real damage intended or otherwise, take a normal friendly society, terrorise it with violence and things change.The governing bodies suddenly appear to be more competant, their failures accepted as 'they are doing their best to safeguard the public'.Government gains a tighter grip on the populace, but terrorism still happens.It would seem just as things appear to settle down to some degree of past normality and there is yet another terrorist action, just to remind people and so the cycle continues. It is very sad what is happening, this 'fear' is leading to societies being ripped apart, we are are destroying ourselves from within.What it will take is for people to recognise what is happening and put a stop to it, do not allow terrorists to win by breaking a society.

Rule -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/14/2007 7:08:19 PM)
All terrorist groups are infiltrated and carefully groomed by secret services that activate them when required by their governments. Often acts of terror are performed by secret agents themselves. Governments use acts of terror to enable them to push through changes and legislation that they desire. It would soon stop if heads of government and directors of secret services were put in prison for life any time an act of terror was committed.

camille65 -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/14/2007 7:54:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The sad case of Stella Baker and her treatment at the hands of immigration officials in the U.S., it is possible their attention was drawn to the fact that her British Passport stated she was female, yet they discovered not.How this 'discovery' came into being I can only speculate, but I do see why a ' big red flag' would be waving in their eyes, with the recent security state and high possibility of terrorist action. But thinking on this, this deplorable treatment of a UK citizens rights, what has caused this change in the U.S.That change I do believe is terrorists So the real damage terrorists cause is suspicion, the fear they create through threats and occaisional terrorist actions erodes society.It comes to a point when suspicion is so rife that everyone is a suspect to everyone and everyone suspects everyone.Trust has gone, anyone that does not 'fit in', may be classed as an undesireable.Scary is'nt it? This to me is the real damage intended or otherwise, take a normal friendly society, terrorise it with violence and things change.The governing bodies suddenly appear to be more competant, their failures accepted as 'they are doing their best to safeguard the public'.Government gains a tighter grip on the populace, but terrorism still happens.It would seem just as things appear to settle down to some degree of past normality and there is yet another terrorist action, just to remind people and so the cycle continues. It is very sad what is happening, this 'fear' is leading to societies being ripped apart, we are are destroying ourselves from within.What it will take is for people to recognise what is happening and put a stop to it, do not allow terrorists to win by breaking a society. Instilling fear into the enemy is a time honored practice, time honored because it does work. IMO we [Americans] were already fragmenting and pulling away from common causes giving the chance for something to widen that rift.That I see and understand.What I do not know is how to change things, I want to change things but I don't know how. Any suggestions? Sincere and real ones.

Owner59 -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/14/2007 8:16:26 PM)
This loss of freedom and ease of movement,was a goal of the terrorists. They wanted us to become paranoid and suspicious. In some ways,they`ve won that goal.

RazorJAK -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 3:01:40 AM)
Those who wish for a more powerful and constrictive federal government also have those goals at heart. They too have won those goals. First stage is to make it harder to get into the country. Then it's easier to work on making it impossible to get out.

samboct -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 7:13:22 AM)
I think FDR summed it up nicely- "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." and that was at a time when the country faced a far graver threat. We don't have brave leaders captaining our ship of state- we have weasels and fearmongers. This is not the fault of the terrorists- to quote Walt Kelly -creator of Pogo- "We have met the enemy and he is us." Our response to the terrorist attacks will not go down in history as one of our finest hours (except for the actions of the people on United 93 and some of the real heroes of 9/11 and I don't mean Wudy), but we've got plenty of other low points as well. Hopefully this too shall pass.... Sam

Gardenista -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 7:38:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The sad case of Stella Baker and her treatment at the hands of immigration officials in the U.S., it is possible their attention was drawn to the fact that her British Passport stated she was female, yet they discovered not.How this 'discovery' came into being I can only speculate, but I do see why a ' big red flag' would be waving in their eyes, with the recent security state and high possibility of terrorist action. But thinking on this, this deplorable treatment of a UK citizens rights, what has caused this change in the U.S.That change I do believe is terrorists So the real damage terrorists cause is suspicion, the fear they create through threats and occaisional terrorist actions erodes society.It comes to a point when suspicion is so rife that everyone is a suspect to everyone and everyone suspects everyone.Trust has gone, anyone that does not 'fit in', may be classed as an undesireable.Scary is'nt it? This to me is the real damage intended or otherwise, take a normal friendly society, terrorise it with violence and things change.The governing bodies suddenly appear to be more competant, their failures accepted as 'they are doing their best to safeguard the public'.Government gains a tighter grip on the populace, but terrorism still happens.It would seem just as things appear to settle down to some degree of past normality and there is yet another terrorist action, just to remind people and so the cycle continues. It is very sad what is happening, this 'fear' is leading to societies being ripped apart, we are are destroying ourselves from within.What it will take is for people to recognise what is happening and put a stop to it, do not allow terrorists to win by breaking a society. After reading Stella's post, I'd be more likely to say that it was nasty, ignorant, willfully cruel behavior that had used the convenient "terrorism" stuff as an excuse. Probably due to homophobia. It's a common misconception that all TGs are just gay.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 8:18:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The sad case of Stella Baker and her treatment at the hands of immigration officials in the U.S., it is possible their attention was drawn to the fact that her British Passport stated she was female, yet they discovered not.How this 'discovery' came into being I can only speculate, but I do see why a ' big red flag' would be waving in their eyes, with the recent security state and high possibility of terrorist action. But thinking on this, this deplorable treatment of a UK citizens rights, what has caused this change in the U.S.That change I do believe is terrorists Policies based upon fear have caused this. quote: So the real damage terrorists cause is suspicion, the fear they create through threats and occasional terrorist actions erodes society.It comes to a point when suspicion is so rife that everyone is a suspect to everyone and everyone suspects everyone.Trust has gone, anyone that does not 'fit in', may be classed as an undesirable.Scary isn't it? Witch hunt comes to mind. quote: This to me is the real damage intended or otherwise, take a normal friendly society, terrorise it with violence and things change.The governing bodies suddenly appear to be more competant, their failures accepted as 'they are doing their best to safeguard the public'.Government gains a tighter grip on the populace, but terrorism still happens.It would seem just as things appear to settle down to some degree of past normality and there is yet another terrorist action, just to remind people and so the cycle continues. There are many that do not accept much of this, but we do deal with what is. At the same time though, we look to what could be and push for that. quote: It is very sad what is happening, this 'fear' is leading to societies being ripped apart, we are are destroying ourselves from within.What it will take is for people to recognise what is happening and put a stop to it, do not allow terrorists to win by breaking a society. Fear is a great motivator for the masses. It often can burn quickly, and the fear be turned upon those that are using it. We cannot say that our actions (as Americans) are just the result of the attacks upon us, that would be just a rationalization of not accepting our responsibilities as citizens. Osama bin Laden said before the attacks of the Twin Towers, that to defeat America you must defeat her economically. Look at all the spending that is being done, at a time when we cannot afford it. Osama also said, to bring the West to the land of the Muslims, would show that the infidels wish to invade, and would be a galvanizing force to Islam. Look how we reacted, and fulfilled what he wanted. I cannot see the endgame for the American politicians, that push the agenda of Imperialism, profits is a very short sighted answer. The endgame is much broader than that, and though I am not a conspiracy theorist, I believe the orchestraters are global and not just the Islamic Fascist or the American politicians that push this agenda. Having read many reports, from many different perspectives, there is alot missing. One thing that is glaring me in the face, is that the business as usual politics here in America must stop, for many reasons. "Those that would sacrifice liberty, for the sake of security, deserve neither." It was a great Man that said this, and it is very true. Live well, Orion

popeye1250 -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 8:35:30 AM)
I see a lot of misdirected anger here. Yes there's problems with the government but people need to remember that Bin Laden and al qeada caused all of this. They're the ones that we really need to be angry with! If I had a lot of assets like Warren Buffet say, I'd have assasination squads scouring Pakistan and Afganistan hunting them down.

samboct -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 9:03:51 AM)
Popeye I hear where you're coming from- and there's no way that I think Osama has anything resembling a reasonable point of view based on his actions. But let's look at the facts- homegrown terrorist Timmy McVeigh blows up a van outside the Federal Building in Oklahoma to protest the FBIs attack on Waco Tx. Did we go to war with the Mormons? (Yes, I know it was the Branch Davidians- but Osama had no relation to Iraq either.) Basically we shrugged it off- said this is the price of having religious freedoms- some kooks banded together, the FBI overreacted, and gee, now we've got hundreds dead. The rest of us said this sucks and went back to work. CIA trained OBL gets imaginative and flies passenger jet liners into buildings killing a few thousand. Now we run around like a chicken without a head and invade Iraq- using 9/11 as a pretext but manage not to find any nonexistant "WMD" and we claim that we're trying to stop Al queda? Wrong country. To the rest of the world this makes no sense. But this time we come up with a Dept. of Homeland Security who act like Hitler's brownshirts- all in the guise of "protecting" us. Well, I'm a lot more worried about those clowns than I am about some semi mythical and completely impotent Al queda threat to this country. That OBL is still running around patting bottoms and making videos should be a national embarassment- but that puts invading Iraq in a completely different class. In short- the towelheads can't win this war- but we can and are losing it. I'm trying to point out that we need to do what we can to avoid our losing the war- and focusing on Al Towel as the cause of our problems is one humongo mistake. There's always gonna be some clown like that- but we need to be able to deal with them in a rational fashion- and that's OUR problem. Sam

RazorJAK -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 9:08:17 AM)
The way you're wording things would lead one to believe that there is only a finite amount of anger to go around. My anger towards the ones behind the attack is not, in any way, diminished because of the level of anger I hold towards those who've used the attack as a way of profitting at the expence of we, the people. There is more than enough anger and outrage to go around. That's the dangerous thing which the wrongists are banking on. They've spent the last 6 years trying to brainwash the people that, if you try to look in any direction but the one they point towards, you're a traitor.

Sinergy -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 9:12:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin So the real damage terrorists cause is suspicion Suspicion is not damage, it is a motivation. Damage is what happens when suspicious people do, like invade countries, pour money that could otherwise be used to build infrastructure into stupid things like checking shoes at airports, etc., or presenting one's country as being a bright and free country while suspending habeas corpus and off-shoring torture of suspected terrorists. Terrorists win when people change their way of life or lose their ideals because of the terrorists' actions. Sinergy

popeye1250 -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 9:55:25 AM)
I don't know anyone who's walking around "afraid" of the govt or al qeada these days. And of course it was stupid to invade Iraq instead of going into Afganistan and Pakistan! Look at what we have "at the helm." A rich kid who went to Philips-Exeter Academy then "YALE" where three quarters of admissions are "legacy" admissions of wealthy people's children. We're not talking about someone with a 120 i.q. here. And look at who's profiting from Iraq! There are more "contractors" there than there are troops! Sinergy, I don't want my country to be known as "bright and free." That just attracts millions of undesirable illegal aliens who misinterpret the "Free" part! When I talk to foreigners from Pakistan, India and other countries on Yahoo messenger late at night and they ask me what it's like here I tell them; "It's awful, dead people laying on the side of the road starved or shot by the police or army, no jobs, no food, no electricity, only the rich can afford gasoline, people are killing and eating their pets, do you have electricty in India? Can I come over there to live?" Just doing my part![:D] As for torture, I believe in torture. We have a place called "Allegator Adventure" here. They have about 100 allegators in there some about 20 feet long and about 2,000 lbs. You just take those al qeada bums from GTMO and bring them up here and tie a 100 lbs block around their necks and toss 4 or 5 of them into the pit with "Old Charlie" and his buddies for some "adventure" and watch the rest of them start spilling the beans! "Do you denounce Muhammed?" "Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, I denounce him that no good s.o.b.!" Now I'd pay good money for that! But that's just me.

LadyDemonikaTS -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 3:34:15 PM)
All that the "security measures" etc did since 9/11 was let the terrorists win. They've placed fear among the western nations. They've won - period. Until governments stop this paranoid crap they'll continue winning.

Sinergy -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 5:50:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 As for torture, I believe in torture. We have been over this before, popeye1250. I am one who believes in the idea of America as envisioned by the Founding Fathers. The idea that there are ideals such as freedom and property and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which are more important than security or protection. Additionally, these ideals were guarded by the ideas presented in the Bill of Rights, put in place largely because our Founding Fathers were more frightened of their own government than some ephemeral idea of terror. You have never answered the question I have asked you dozens of times whether you would sign up to be tortured or put to death if you were ever suspected of something, because you believe that these things must be preserved at all costs (including your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness) and you were willing to take one for the team. . The terrorists have already won, and it is people who stand on the sidelines and salivate when the terror bell rings, who have allowed them to win. Sinergy

popeye1250 -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 6:21:22 PM)
Sinergy, I believe in all that stuff too. But if we capture al qeada terrorists I don't believe we should be extending any courtessies or any rights to them. Forget waterboarding, then it's time to break out the acetylene torches. Waterboarding, don't the Girl Scouts use that for initiations? They need to start thinning the herd in GTMO and start executing those bastards for being spies. Christmas is comming up and that would be a nice Christmas present for the country! The founding fathers never said anything about being "nice" to our enemies. They were real big on Rope in those days. And how could you ever give them a jury of their peers? "All al qeada undercover spies in America report for jury duty!" Oh, But that's just me![:D] Now let me get back to my weekly ration of "multi-culturalism", "America's Most Wanted" is on.

Sinergy -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 6:49:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Sinergy, I believe in all that stuff too. But if we capture al qeada terrorists I don't believe we should be extending any courtessies or any rights to them. We have been over this before as well. How do we know they are Al Qaeda terrorists if we do not treat them as human beings entitled to the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? If we do not allow them to face their accusers in a court of law? If we do not take the time to provide them with legal counsel? If we do not take the time to determine if they are citizens of the United States before we strap them to a board and flood their breathing passages with water? You have never answered whether you would allow yourself to be tortured if some government agency thought you were an Al Qaeda terrorist, because you actually possessed the courage of your convictions that torture is the only way to preserve the freedom of mankind. quote: Oh, But that's just me! I know. Sinergy

farglebargle -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 6:55:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Sinergy, I believe in all that stuff too. But if we capture al qeada terrorists I don't believe we should be extending any courtessies or any rights to them. Forget waterboarding, then it's time to break out the acetylene torches. Waterboarding, don't the Girl Scouts use that for initiations? They need to start thinning the herd in GTMO and start executing those bastards for being spies. Christmas is comming up and that would be a nice Christmas present for the country! The founding fathers never said anything about being "nice" to our enemies. They were real big on Rope in those days. And how could you ever give them a jury of their peers? "All al qeada undercover spies in America report for jury duty!" Oh, But that's just me![:D] Now let me get back to my weekly ration of "multi-culturalism", "America's Most Wanted" is on. Why are you PUBLICLY advocating the commission of Violent Felonies under US Law? I am certain doing so is in violation of the Terms of Service here.

popeye1250 -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 7:31:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Sinergy, I believe in all that stuff too. But if we capture al qeada terrorists I don't believe we should be extending any courtessies or any rights to them. We have been over this before as well. How do we know they are Al Qaeda terrorists if we do not treat them as human beings entitled to the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? If we do not allow them to face their accusers in a court of law? If we do not take the time to provide them with legal counsel? If we do not take the time to determine if they are citizens of the United States before we strap them to a board and flood their breathing passages with water? You have never answered whether you would allow yourself to be tortured if some government agency thought you were an Al Qaeda terrorist, because you actually possessed the courage of your convictions that torture is the only way to preserve the freedom of mankind. quote: Oh, But that's just me! I know. Sinergy Sinergy, we (have) been over this before and I wouldn't expect you to change your mind over it anymore than you should expect me to change my mind over it. I believe in torturing al qeada terrorists. What the hell ever happened to "shoot on sight"? Did we discard that policy already? How much more info can we get out of those scumbags in GTMO? There has to be a certain point that they realise that they are of no further use to us and start executing them. Even that pussy Geneva Conventions which we should get out of says we can execute them as spies. As for "allowing" myself to be tortured lol, sure! "C'mon boys, is that all you have, bamboo shoots under the fingernails?" "What's next on the menu, WATERBOARDING?" "OOoouuuuuu!" "I'm soooooo scared!" And I surely don't want those scumbags in my courts. It's bad enough that they're on "holiday" in warm balmy GTMO. Couldn't they construct a prison/death house in Antartica? I just don't get why some people want to treat al qeada terrorists like U.S. Citizens. That's in no way to say that I agree with Bush in anyway. I don't. I don't like him, I don't like his policies and I am totally against the way he is running our govt. Our war is with al qeada not with Iraq and Bush hasn't done jack shit in 6 years!

popeye1250 -> RE: The real cost of terrorism. (12/15/2007 7:40:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Sinergy, I believe in all that stuff too. But if we capture al qeada terrorists I don't believe we should be extending any courtessies or any rights to them. Forget waterboarding, then it's time to break out the acetylene torches. Waterboarding, don't the Girl Scouts use that for initiations? They need to start thinning the herd in GTMO and start executing those bastards for being spies. Christmas is comming up and that would be a nice Christmas present for the country! The founding fathers never said anything about being "nice" to our enemies. They were real big on Rope in those days. And how could you ever give them a jury of their peers? "All al qeada undercover spies in America report for jury duty!" Oh, But that's just me![:D] Now let me get back to my weekly ration of "multi-culturalism", "America's Most Wanted" is on. Why are you PUBLICLY advocating the commission of Violent Felonies under US Law? I am certain doing so is in violation of the Terms of Service here. Fargle, lol, oh, we're in public? Ok, what am I wearing? "Violent Felonies?" Ok, just make believe I'm ...oh,.let's see...........an Illegal Alien! You can't tell me you wouldn't want to see al qeada terrorists being torn to pieces and eaten by allegators! You'd have to "KNOW" someone to get those tickets!

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