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RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 10:32:12 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

My question is is that condisered topping from the bottom? He never said anything but he seemed a little annoyed.


If it is still bothering you after a year perhaps you should talk to him. Go to the cemetary and sit, just talk. Get it all out in the open. Of course you won't get a response but hopefully he will be able to hear you.

I know with my dom...he would'nt consider it topping from below. But offering him good advice on how to please me. Of course depending on the dom the answer will vary.
If he did seem a bit annoyed perhaps he felt it was.

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 12:10:35 PM   
tigress31047


Posts: 98
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline 		I woould call it topping from the bottom...I had a simailar experience..During a scene Master was spanking tits and I don't know what came over me but I grabbed His hand and held it to keep Him from doing it. He was not hurting me to the point I needed to stop .I just had a momentary lack of good sense I guess...needless to say , He did not overlook it...( ouch)

tigress

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 12:17:40 PM   
plantlady64


Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigress31047

I woould call it topping from the bottom...I had a simailar experience..During a scene Master was spanking tits and I don't know what came over me but I grabbed His hand and held it to keep Him from doing it. He was not hurting me to the point I needed to stop .I just had a momentary lack of good sense I guess...needless to say , He did not overlook it...( ouch)

tigress

Hello There,
To me your example is way different than what she's talking about. In my experiences lot's of me are clueless as to where a womans clit hot spot is or what to do with it to make a lady feel really good. She was trying to add to her Masters technique, not stop him from spanking her. It's not the same thing in my opinion at all.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to tigress31047)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 2:38:35 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		In this Master's opinion you are all missing the point, and in this case, my precious beth did not articulate herself as well as usual. Would I be displeased with beth if she were so presumptuous to move my hand or anything else without instructions to do so - YES, but not for the reason you think.

It is not a matter of a Master/Mistress knowing female anatomy in general or his/her slave in particular. It's not even a matter of the sub slave taking his/her hand and moving it to any particular place that illustrates "topping from the bottom". It is the presumption by the sub that their pleasure was important at all. Or that is was the goal of the act.

In our relationship lifestyle slavery is not defined by the physical it's defined by the mental. When a slave physically changes the sensation being provided by the Master, the Master becomes an implement. Using the Master as an implement during the act, defines topping from below. It IS that simple.

That said, is additional communication in order - YES. If the Master/Mistress doesn't have the skill sets necessary to derive the sensation in his slave that he wants he should "go to school". "Going to school" means talking, asking, observing, and practicing. It could have been included in this session as described, IF it was his goal. At the very least it should have been discussed AFTERWARD. Not as a matter of critique, but as a question to her Master. "Where you trying to stimulate me to orgasm?" Or even; "Would you like me to show you how to do that better?" Of course the Master would have to have enough self confidence to be open to that type of comment, but compare that discussion to what happened. To me it was the same as saying; "LET ME DO IT IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT WORKS!!"

There are many more submissives in the world then slaves. Many more people looking for sensations rather than seeking to live in a relationship within an agreed upon state of mind. There is nothing "wrong" with either approach as long as both parties understand and appreciate their roles. I chose not to be an implement. Not as a wielder of a whip, crop, or cane; to facilitate a desired sensation. Not as a substitute vibrator. I view any attempt to try - "topping from below".

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 4:02:03 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
There are many more submissives in the world then slaves. Many more people looking for sensations rather than seeking to live in a relationship within an agreed upon state of mind. There is nothing "wrong" with either approach as long as both parties understand and appreciate their roles. I chose not to be an implement. Not as a wielder of a whip, crop, or cane; to facilitate a desired sensation. Not as a substitute vibrator. I view any attempt to try - "topping from below".


I completely agree agree with this. However, in the situation related, it seemed that it was obvious on both sides that the dominant was indeed trying to offer pleasure to the sub.

Whether the dom was or not, whether he wanted assistance or not, we do not know for certain. However, we know it certainly was not the INTENTION of the submissive to try and subvert whatever the dominant wanted, and made a snap immediate judgement flowing with what was already occurring.

Given that, I'd say this particular scenario wasn't topping from the bottom. I think TFTB needs a specific intent on the part of the sub to subvert the dom, which is lacking here, in relation to the specific intent of the dom, and since we can't know what the dom was intending then that can't be part of our determinations.

I think to jump the gun and call it TFTB would make a bigger issue than it needs to be. It was an immediate unthinking reaction completely in tune with what was already occurring. If the dom didn't want it to happen again, well that's why they created training and communcation. To label it TFTB would cause an unnecessary negative emotion on the situation and to misread the intentions.

I think fear of being perceived as TFTB might be a big hindrance on subs who simply want to help out and would be losing a great asset to the dom. By all means the dom should communicate acceptable actions and unacceptable actions and the slave should adhere to them, but in THIS situation, clear guidelines were lacking and intentions were pure. To call it TFTB is too big a leap.



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 4:21:55 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Whether the dom was or not, whether he wanted assistance or not, we do not know for certain. However, we know it certainly was not the INTENTION of the submissive to try and subvert whatever the dominant wanted, and made a snap immediate judgement flowing with what was already occurring.

Given that, I'd say this particular scenario wasn't topping from the bottom. I think TFTB needs a specific intent on the part of the sub to subvert the dom, which is lacking here, in relation to the specific intent of the dom, and since we can't know what the dom was intending then that can't be part of our determinations.


Emerald,
Appreciate your position, but there is really a simple question test for determination of TFTB. Again with the standard IMO disclaimer. The question is this...

Was the action in question taken to facilitate the Tops pleasure or the sub's?


Strict, un-strict, positive or negative implications aside; to me it's an easy answer. A sliver of doubt could be interjected by implying the the top was being pleasured by the sub's pleasure, but it's a stretchy rationalization calling for a large dose of "benefit of the doubt". The "pure" intentions of a slave should never be to assume the intentions of his/her Master. At most in that circumstance, I would expect the sub to ask respectfully the dom's intention and offer assistance, not independently direct.

It's not a leap by any means to expect that mindset to exist. Between us, it does.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 4:31:08 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Was the action in question taken to facilitate the Tops pleasure or the sub's?

In this situation I don't think we can have a conclusive answer to this. It would appear that the dominant wanted to give pleasure to the sub, the sub was actively assisting in this, which would give the dom what he wanted, which, presumably, would make him happier.

BTW, many doms DO want their subs to actively give the subs pleasure and will ask the sub to show the dom how to do so, or tell the sub to get on top during sex and please themselves. In some situations the couple can learn eachother enough to understand this without even explicit verbal commands which would lead the sub to do the same things that were done in this situation. It would be rash to count out all situations as TFTB.

quote:

The "pure" intentions of a slave should never be to assume the intentions of his/her Master.

This might be the key element here. In my relationship with the Owner its often my job to learn to predict and assume the Owners intentions and act accordingly. He's spent a lot of time teaching me how to do that (with lots of emotionally scabbed knees for mistakes).

Since we don't know which style the dominant in question prefers (and neither apparently does his sub), and sine we know the sub intended to assist the dom, then I think we can rule out TFTB and just chalk it up to mixed wires.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 4:44:35 PM   
sanita


Posts: 338
Joined: 1/30/2005
Status: offline 		littleone,

when i slip and move my hands to either push Master's away when He is torturing me with pinches and twists, or to pull them closer, He usually just gives me a look. kind of a "do you REALLY want to do that?" and usually, i choose to not do it. i do not call that an attempt to top from the bottom when i lose control of my will to take it, and He does not call it that. Actually, sometimes, He likes if i let my instincts to resist take over. if i want or feel a big need for something, i beg for it. Our dynamic allows for this, and i learn a lesson every time i ask for something and do not get it.

maybe, any annoyance your late Master expressed was at the slip. a lot of topping from the bottom is intent. you were trying to get to where He wanted you to be. you knew what it would take, and tried to express it.

i agree with sub4hire. talking it out to His picture, or going to His favorite place might be good, if you can't get to His grave. either way, this is an incident that cannot be changed, and second-guessing it will not help.

but if you are going to question yourself, here are a couple:

were you trying to control Him, or help Him? or were you simply responding in a way you would not have been able to respond when restrained?

well, that's all my opinion, for what its worth. i hope you are doing alright.

_____________________________

Sometimes, He calls me "subbie." Sometimes, i call me "subbie." And if someone wants to call me a BBW, its flattering. Just don't call me false.

"Please do not show me your ass and expect me to read your mind." -Opencollar

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Wondering - 8/19/2005 5:02:35 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

then I think we can rule out TFTB and just chalk it up to mixed wires



Sorry Emerald, we'll agree to disagree. I don't enjoin your royal "we" in the above sentence. I'd consider everything you mention to come under the heading of rationalization. I would be redundant in any answer.

Appreciate your dynamic and especially appreciate your training to anticipate the needs of your owner. I don't see this as the same situation. She was taking care of her needs. A dom telling his sub to "get on top" is a big difference from the situation described by the OP. Tangents and deviations of that focus provide for a lot of opportunity for interpretation. But focusing on the simple question generates the simple question "test".

I also agree wholeheartedly with the need and opening this created for communication. Considering my prior posts this is being "repeatedly redundant", so I'll end here.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Wondering - 8/20/2005 2:08:49 PM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		Hello all for any who are interested i am ok now was hard for a while. sub 4 hire and sanita thank you for your ideas i am going to go to his favirote place in NY and have a :talk" with him. I cannot get to his grave he was from NC and was buried there with his family. As you might have guessed he was here in NY with me.

All othere who responed thank you it is interesting to see what others think. No therd were no explicte instructions not to move i think he was anjoyed that i though he neede help he really never did.

littleone

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Wondering - 8/22/2005 12:40:58 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I think you just hurt his pride. The ego is typically a fragile creature, and by forcing him to go where you wanted him to, he took it as a personal afront. If the situation arises again, try being a bit more tactful. No one likes to hear that they're doing things completely wrong.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 31
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