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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/25/2005 9:16:43 PM   
emCB


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this girl is so glad that she does not have a shallow Master
this girl was not chosen due to her looks or even her knowledge of gor which was very limited
this girl was chosen for her willingness and need to please her Master
this girl does not concern herself with others choices of lifetstyles and for the life of me cannot figure out why others need to concern themselves with mine

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/25/2005 10:31:49 PM   
MrThorns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

quote:

if Gor == Star Trek, then BDSM == Exit to Eden, another particularly badly written book


Okay... as this was mentioned, I have to respond:

1. Gor is based on a fictional series of books and would most likely not exist without the books having been written.

2. BDSM existed long before Exit to Eden. You could go back to the Marquis De Sade (1740-1814) and "Justine" or "120 Days of Sodom", or even use the Bible as a point of reference, but I will assume that you are referring to modern day consentual BDSM.

Anyway....Happy to see the new forum.

~Thorns


...but Aristotle's writings on the natural slave brought this concept up long before John Norman or even De Sade's writings.

You can find it at:
http://www.constitution.org/ari/polit_01.htm

krys{Rk}


I'm working on a response to the thread you had mentioned and have read the article attached.

A great many of Aristotle's teachings were bad fiction as well. His theories were based primarily on casual observation. I see no evidence that would cause me to believe that his teachings regarding natural slavery aren't bad fiction as well.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to krys)
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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 4:48:29 AM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

I'm working on a response to the thread you had mentioned and have read the article attached.

A great many of Aristotle's teachings were bad fiction as well. His theories were based primarily on casual observation. I see no evidence that would cause me to believe that his teachings regarding natural slavery aren't bad fiction as well.

~Thorns


Aristotle is "bad" fiction? Well, that's a matter of reader preference really. Of course, for thousands of years, a majority has believed him to be one of the greatest philosophers of all time. I would venture to say he has stood up rather well to the old "test of time".

I do have one question for all those that equate Goreans to Trekkies. For instance, you yourself Mr. Thorns refer to a "dungeon" in your profile and list "play rape" as an interest. This is somehow less fictional because...?

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 6:19:17 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

I'm working on a response to the thread you had mentioned and have read the article attached.

A great many of Aristotle's teachings were bad fiction as well. His theories were based primarily on casual observation. I see no evidence that would cause me to believe that his teachings regarding natural slavery aren't bad fiction as well.

~Thorns


Aristotle is "bad" fiction? Well, that's a matter of reader preference really. Of course, for thousands of years, a majority has believed him to be one of the greatest philosophers of all time. I would venture to say he has stood up rather well to the old "test of time".

I do have one question for all those that equate Goreans to Trekkies. For instance, you yourself Mr. Thorns refer to a "dungeon" in your profile and list "play rape" as an interest. This is somehow less fictional because...?


Well, I don't know about the person you are speaking with, but I do have a dungeon in my home and the "play" rape is a consensual roleplay of a nonconsensual act.






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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 9:07:54 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

Well, I don't know about the person you are speaking with, but I do have a dungeon in my home and the "play" rape is a consensual roleplay of a nonconsensual act.


Addressed to the lovely Krys:

I really hate to get involved in this, but what's wrong with role playing? It's as real as you make it.

The diiference between "real" and "play" might also be described as women being murdered for talking to her brother or having clitorodectomies performed - if you want "real", you can always move to Pakistan and marry a Mullah - just how "real" does it have to be?

< Message edited by Amaros -- 8/26/2005 9:09:14 AM >

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 9:59:10 AM   
solesta


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This has been an interesting thread to read.

Master IronBear Your poem and how You look at the lifestyle is wonderful and this girl wishes that You and her Master lived closer cause she can see You two being friends.

This girl hopes that one day we all can be understanding of how we live our lives. Even though it isn't like they think it needs to be done.

(in reply to Amaros)
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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 10:51:52 AM   
smilezz


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Deleted because I didn't see that smiley was still logged in..

~Thorns

< Message edited by smilezz -- 8/26/2005 11:01:57 AM >


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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 10:56:29 AM   
caitlyn


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Is there a place I can make a contribution, just to make this whole thread go away?

(in reply to solesta)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 11:03:08 AM   
MrThorns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

I'm working on a response to the thread you had mentioned and have read the article attached.

A great many of Aristotle's teachings were bad fiction as well. His theories were based primarily on casual observation. I see no evidence that would cause me to believe that his teachings regarding natural slavery aren't bad fiction as well.

~Thorns


Aristotle is "bad" fiction? Well, that's a matter of reader preference really. Of course, for thousands of years, a majority has believed him to be one of the greatest philosophers of all time. I would venture to say he has stood up rather well to the old "test of time".

I do have one question for all those that equate Goreans to Trekkies. For instance, you yourself Mr. Thorns refer to a "dungeon" in your profile and list "play rape" as an interest. This is somehow less fictional because...?


I'm not one who equates goreans to trekkies, but to answer your question... My dungeon is fully functional and very real. Play rape is a very real interest and an activity that I participate in.

Aristotle is bad fiction because many of his ideas and theories were based primarily on casual observation. He believed men to be more capable leaders because he lived in a patriarchal society at the time and saw nothing but men in leadership positions. He believed that the earth was the center of the universe and that everything revolved around it. That belief was also held by the majority and to question it was considered heresy. Galileo was imprisoned for supporting Copernicus's ideas that the solar system revolved around the sun and that the universe was not as finite as Aristotle assumed.

Aristotle's methods of deduction were similiar to my holding a rock and saying, "This rock wards off tigers. I know this because I don't see any tigers here."

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to krys)
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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 11:22:21 AM   
edana


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quote:

The diiference between "real" and "play" might also be described as women being murdered for talking to her brother or having clitorodectomies performed - if you want "real", you can always move to Pakistan and marry a Mullah - just how "real" does it have to be?


Greetings,

On the topic of "rape" which i have always viewed a little differently than others. I hold to the ancient connotation of the word when it comes to being subjected to "slave rape"

in definition the origin of the word is the Latin rapere, to seize or take by force. The Latin term for the act of rape itself is raptus. Originally, the word rape was akin to rapine, rapture, raptor, rapacious, and referred to the more general violations— looting, destruction, and capture of citizens— inflicted upon a town or country during war. {Wikipedia}

Another fact is that dating back to antiquity, to rape a person meant to capture the person for the purpose of enslavement.

based on an individuals definition of any particular "word" as words tend to be subjective whether literal or abstract meaning is implied; a person can say i have been "raped" and mean it in it's full sense of the word as they view it.

when my master takes me as his slave, i am helpless to his will, he is bigger and stronger, smarter, and well versed in how to conquer the female of his species. No matter my willing or unwilling state, i am made to "yield" to his will repeatedly. Reminded again that i am a slave in his possession. this is what Goreans believe, and so for us "play rape" sounds a bit ... odd. but again... other individuals only see an act of violence when a the "rape" word is thrown about.

Just a different point of view...


in service,

edana

(in reply to Amaros)
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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 4:08:47 PM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:


I really hate to get involved in this, but what's wrong with role playing? It's as real as you make it.


That was exactly my point. Goreans are repeatedly maligned for "role playing" or being "Trekkies". We are no less real than anyone else.

krys{Rk}

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 4:36:44 PM   
Amaros


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Nothing good, I think, has ever come from taking a work of fiction too seriously - this goes double for Ayn Rand and Ron Hubbard - if you want some really insightful ruminations on power, try Frank Herbert.

(in reply to krys)
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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 4:50:38 PM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
I'm not one who equates goreans to trekkies, but to answer your question... My dungeon is fully functional and very real. Play rape is a very real interest and an activity that I participate in.

~Thorns


Perhaps the way I put this was a bit confusing. Firstly, I did not mean to imply that you personally were saying Goreans = Trekkies MrThorns, I apologize for any confusion this may have caused. I meant the whole general Goreans live fantasy lives theme.

Yes, Gor is based on fictional novels. Badly written ones at that, I will definately concede that point. But living a Gorean lifestyle involves utilizing certain ritualistic behavior, patterns and training methods to acheive a certain mindset. Having a dungeon is creating a space to create a certain mindset. Play rape is using certain behavior to create a certain mindset. No, I do not actually live on Gor. I know that. No, you are not actually raping someone, you know that. So why, when Goreans engage in certain behavior to create a certain mindset, is it living a fantasy life, but when it falls under the more mainstream BDSM behavior, its healthy sexuality?

I do not mean this as a challenge. I honestly want to know what it is that makes others view Goreans as so different from themselves.

I get up in the morning, I set up my coffee maker to brew coffee for when Master will wake up. If its a workday, I pack his lunch. If its a weekend, I make breakfast. I lay out towels. I clean, I do laundry, I kneel at his feet. I submit to his will. When I get home from work, I wash my feet so he does not have to smell my stinky toes. (See, we don't fart flowers, some of us do go in another room first though.) :) So the positions I assume have certain names from a book. What makes people assume I live in some fantasy world? What makes me so different from any other slave kneeling at their Master's feet submitting to their will?

As to Aristotle, observation is what philosophy is about. Its not a hard and fast science. Were his beliefs on the subject of astrophysics correct? No. Is he one of the greatest philosophers of all time? Well, I happen to believe so. As to a great many other people throughout history. But opinion, personal taste and belief are also not a hard and fast science. Astrology is a science of measurment and concrete physical facts. Philosophy is a science of thought. While the nature of the universe can be measured with a set of hard and fast rules, the nature of man is far more subjective.

krys{Rk}

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 4:53:44 PM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Is there a place I can make a contribution, just to make this whole thread go away?


Perhaps you should consider changing your name to Pandora? :)

krys{Rk}

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 5:03:04 PM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

Well, I don't know about the person you are speaking with, but I do have a dungeon in my home and the "play" rape is a consensual roleplay of a nonconsensual act.


I hope my later post clarifies my question. I hope that places like Collarme will allow more people to gain understanding that not all people that call themselves "Gorean" live their lives in chat rooms and fantasies.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 5:21:04 PM   
Amaros


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Not that there's anything wrong with that...

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 5:34:16 PM   
MrThorns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys


So why, when Goreans engage in certain behavior to create a certain mindset, is it living a fantasy life, but when it falls under the more mainstream BDSM behavior, its healthy sexuality?

I do not mean this as a challenge. I honestly want to know what it is that makes others view Goreans as so different from themselves.


Personally, I think that the view that many people have regarding goreans has been assisted, in part, by many people that claim that they live the gorean life.

Now, please correct me if I am wrong in this as I am not all that familiar with goreans, but is it not a widely held belief that gorean masters and slaves are a product of natural selection or evolution? That men are somehow genetically better leaders than women?

I have seen more than a few goreans take this belief system and try to apply it to others that live by a completely different belief system...a practice which tends to lead to conflict. How often have you seen a gorean man talk down to a non-gorean woman? I've seen it far too often, but I will admit that I have not seen any of the people I know to be gorean r/t do so....it's something I've really only seen online.

So, maybe the answer to your question regarding why it is so difficult for some BDSM-folk to accept Gor-folk comes from these online behaviors.


~Thorns


_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 5:45:10 PM   
luvdragonx


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quote:

I do not mean this as a challenge. I honestly want to know what it is that makes others view Goreans as so different from themselves.


I thought I'd jump in here real quick on that question. I think what makes a lot of people view Gor and all things Gorean the way they do is because somebody else, i.e. John Norman, thought of it first.

I've observed both online and R/T that many people subconsciously feel they invented BDSM. I'll clarify further.

One of the main things you'll hear over and over around here is that there are no rules, there is no 'One Twue Way'. Because BDSM as a whole is subjective to each individual, how each person comes into this way of life is just that, individually. Each person then suits this way of life to their wants and needs, customizing it so no two outlooks are the same. Conversely, Gorean ideology is taken directly from single source (the books), and there ARE rules to be followed, there IS a Gorean way. What is disconcerting to some people is that they get hammered with the idea that there is no set way of doing things, and just when they get happy with that, someone mentions Gor and it throws everything out of whack.

It's common in all facets for there to be two loose schools of thought. If I may try to reduce this to a lower common denominator, one group like rules, order and standards - the other prefers spontaneity and individual interpretation, one day at a time. (I may not have phrased this exactly right, but I hope you get what I mean). Neither is wrong, neither is better, it's just that some people are more suited to one way of living than another.

Some people object to the more rigid structure because they fight against it in other parts of their lives. Some people just aren't wired that way. The problem lies in those people who don't understand the mindset insisting that something must be 'wrong' with you because you are Gorean and choose a harder (for themselves anyway) way of life.

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 5:56:50 PM   
MrThorns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

quote:

I do not mean this as a challenge. I honestly want to know what it is that makes others view Goreans as so different from themselves.


One of the main things you'll hear over and over around here is that there are no rules, there is no 'One Twue Way'. Because BDSM as a whole is subjective to each individual, how each person comes into this way of life is just that, individually. Each person then suits this way of life to their wants and needs, customizing it so no two outlooks are the same. Conversely, Gorean ideology is taken directly from single source (the books), and there ARE rules to be followed, there IS a Gorean way. What is disconcerting to some people is that they get hammered with the idea that there is no set way of doing things, and just when they get happy with that, someone mentions Gor and it throws everything out of whack.



After I had posted my last post, I had hopped into the shower and was thinking these very same thoughts. How BDSM and any protocols within a BDSM relationship are based soley upon the desires of the individuals within that relationship, while Goreans have a rulebook of sorts which describes certain protocols and norms for behavior.

I thought of it first dammit....

~Thorns

< Message edited by MrThorns -- 8/26/2005 5:57:26 PM >


_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 6:02:02 PM   
luvdragonx


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quote:


After I had posted my last post, I had hopped into the shower and was thinking these very same thoughts. How BDSM and any protocols within a BDSM relationship are based soley upon the desires of the individuals within that relationship, while Goreans have a rulebook of sorts which describes certain protocols and norms for behavior.

I thought of it first dammit....

~Thorns



Ok, I will go so far as to allow that you and I shared a wavelength for a minute. Then again, how do you know it wasn't my thoughts you were picking up on?????

By all means, elaborate on that point the way only you can, as I'm off to do good deeds........

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 8/26/2005 6:03:31 PM >


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