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Love in D/s - 7/7/2004 3:45:19 PM

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i've been thinking about something and thought maybe it would be a good subject here. How does love fit into the scheme of D/s?

If a submissive male or female pays a Pro, i think it's safe to say that love is not part of the equation (although what happens down the road is entirely open). From what i've read in many profiles, Dommes may already have a submissive husband or significant slave and want to increase their stable. Is love a factor in this situation as a rule?

There are also many "lifestyle" profiles stating they are looking for submissive men or women but no mention of a relationship as part of the picture. This scenario leads me to believe it's only about enjoying the activities of D/s but nothing more. What happens if feelings develop here?

Here's a follow up question for submissives in regard to the above...how many feel their need to express their submissive nature can best be achieved through feeling love for their Domme/Owner? In other words, do you feel that love drives your expression of submission or is it something else?

my first few experiences within the lifestyle were with a ProDomme but i soon realized the emptiness i left with after each visit was a lack of the bond that comes with loving the other. Without this, the time i spent became more and more hollow and after coming to this understanding of myself, i could no longer imagine visiting a ProDomme again. Furthermore, i constantly read about people's experiences in the lifestyle but see little mention of what the motivation is.

i hope i'm making sense in what i've written. Thanks!

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

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RE: Love in D/s - 7/7/2004 4:32:00 PM

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quote:

How does love fit into the scheme of D/s?

My husband is my Dom and we have been married 36 yrs but only turned it into an official D/s relationship a year ago. By official i mean defining it as such and using the kinks in the bedroom. I have always served him anyway he wished. I think the fact that He loves me so much makes Him afraid of hurting me and humiliating me, both of which i desire. I feel love makes the cuddling after a scene much more enjoyable

Also it is because He loves me that he forgave me for going outside our marriage to experience my submissive side and love is why He is willing to learn to be my Dom. I think love can play a big part in a bdsm relationship but isn't a necessity to experience it.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/7/2004 6:26:25 PM

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I've posted this question in one of my groups before, because I, too, hear so many say that it does not belong in the lifestyle.

One thing many people confuse Ds for Tb Dominant/submissive is not always the same as Top/bottom. I've had a Top, I was not romantically in love with him, I did not totally surrender to Him, because I surrender only to the One I love and trust completely. But from our interaction I was able to trust him enough to allow myself to be cuffed and scene with....of course, with my safe calls in place beforehand.

T/b, for me, is not a long term relationship. It may merely be an hour of my getting pleasure in a masochistic way and his pleasure is accomplished by filling his sadistic needs as well.

I do not have a "Master's" perception, but I know the dominant men that have allowed me to love them, also loved me in return. Love happens, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. When I love someone, my devotion is deep and strong. My desire to please as much as I can is my priority, to the man I love.

I am not in these rooms to fill a passing sexual horomone urge...I have my toys to appease that, if I so wish to. I am not here to break every value or moral I was raised with...granted some may consider my love of leather and bondage, kinky...to me it is not...it's me and my life and I am just the way my Creator wanted me to be. I am not here to find a man who is sadistic to the extent he is a Marquise wanna be...afterall he was imprisoned and spent many a month in an asylum.

I don't believe I have a Pro-Domme nor, pro-sub mentality, my surrender comes from my heart...which therein, lies l-o-v-e. I have friends that are Pro-Domme, and those who like to Top rather than establish a relationship...that is fine for them, it is not fine for me. We weren't made with a cookie cutter....so this little gingerbread subbie says, for me D/s means developing a relationship built upon love.

Being a woman who practices her Native American spirituality...the words from the well known book, are dear to my heart..."woman be subservient unto your Man..." Ephesians (look it up and read the rest of the sentence), smiles; therein, lies the foundation for the D/s relationship I seek and one day shall find. And, of course, it's based upon that four letter word...

Humbly,
feather

"Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." Theodore Geisel (Dr. Seuss)

A work in progress...my new lifestyle site:
http://www.angelfire.com/al4/like_minds_bound_al/

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/7/2004 11:28:03 PM

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Love has many forms. Maternal/Paternal love, Romantic love, etc. Sometimes we may feel only one of these forms...maybe none will ever apply to our particular relationships. I believe that a D/s relationship can hold some form of love, but it doesnt have to.

~Thorns

(in reply to featheryOne)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/8/2004 12:54:09 AM

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There is no difference as far as emotional attachment goes, vanilla or d/s. The intensity, now there is a big difference between the two, we live life much more fully than the vanillas, always willing to try and do and FEEL to the very edge. In both worlds there is a great variety in what is being sot. But the begining it is the same, you see someone because they have peaked your interest, not fallen madly in love at first sight. No one can say, I am going to love this person for that trait or this mind set before they have even met. Love comes not by force of will but by proximity, interests, and attention to the relationship. A dominant may or may not love a submissive or slave, that is one of the quirks of being human. No emotion can be forced, it is the nature of the beast to love, but not always wisely. Not always will a submissive be loved by their dominant, but respected, cared for. In the short time I was vanilla I never actively sot love, that doesn't mean I haven't loved and loved fully. If you keep beating the drum without enjoying the sounds, just wanting the one perfect note, all you will get is a broken skin and no sound at all. Enjoy the journey, if it was meant for you to find love in a d/s relationship you will. Sundew

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RE: Love in D/s - 7/8/2004 7:38:55 AM

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anthro,

My experience is similar to proud's partnership: love came first, then we discovered bdsm. So yeah, love is an integral part of our relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: featheryOne
T/b, for me, is not a long term relationship.
<snip>

I have friends that are Pro-Domme, and those who like to Top rather than establish a relationship...that is fine for them, it is not fine for me.
<snip>
for me D/s means developing a relationship built upon love.

featheryOne,

My husband is Top. I am bottom. We love each other. Our relationship is long-term. (We've been together 26 years, married for 22.)

Whether love is involved in a relationship is, in my mind, completely independent of D/s status. As proof I offer the fact that even vanillas are familiar with love!

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/8/2004 7:54:28 AM

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I've said in the past, D/s - to me - is satisfying *because* of the element of love, not in spite of it. I do not particularly enjoy BDSM with a 'partner' I do not love, anymore then I enjoy sex with a partner I do not love. I don't think anyone is advocating that love does not belong in BDSM, D/s, or any other form of alternative lifestyle. I think perhaps the original poster may have fallen a bit into the trap that lures male submissives into the hands of Pro-Dommes (not to say that they don't willingly or desire to go.) Historically, men have always been willing to pay for sex (while Pro-Dommes may not engage in 'sex' it's naivete at best to suggest their work is not sexually oriented.) It's a safe bet that there are simply more male submissives then there are female dominants, though I don't have the survey numbers handy. Just because there is healthy competition, doesn't mean that there aren't enough Female Dominants - but rather it just takes greater effort to find the 'right' one. As was discussed in other threads, the best way to 'court' a Domme (I think anyway) is to appeal to the woman she is. I think it would be foolish to introduce yourself as a sub, willing to do xyz as a slave with ABC fetishes. This would be the vanilla equivalent of saying "I drive a BMW, make $70,000, and own a house on the beach." It doesn't really say anything about the person you are. Focusing on the personality elements first, and permitting 'fantasy' interaction i.e. M/s interaction to grow later would yield a far different perspective, I think.

Stephan

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http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to January)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/8/2004 11:23:34 AM

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Ok, ready for my two cents?

If not oh well you're getting it anyway.

To me love is an integral part of the lifestyle. Although you also need to realize I am a monogamous creature. Yet, I'm also speaking from years of watching other couples..threesomes, what have you.
People will disagree, that's fine I'm merely speaking from what I have seen.

I agree with feathery on the Top/bottom. These are usually people not connected by anything but play. Therefore there is really no emotional attachment there at all.

When you get into a Dominant having a submissive and wanting to build their stable so to speak. It's real easy to think you would react in a certain way. I've said this before in other posts. When it comes down to it you surprise yourself a bit.
What if I found woman and liked her so much I asked Doug to take her on as one of his? I'm sure it would be real exciting to the both of us at first. Down the line jealousy is going to come into the picture. Not if there is'nt any sort of feelings or love. However if I love him and I'm the only one. Now I have to share him with another. I can't imagine it not creeping into the picture at some point in time.

I've seen many relationships in the past happen exactly that way. I've yet to see a real time poly relationship work. I've seen many over the years start. Say the same thing. Well I'm not the jealous type plus I want it as much as my partner. Yet two to three months down the line its over. Marriage as well. The only poly type relationships I have seen work is when a committed couple finds a "one night stand" They say goodbye never to play with them again.

I feel that you feel empty afterwards because there is not sufficient aftercare. There is'nt because you are not bonded with that person. How can you give someone something they need when you just don't know what it is they need?

Because I love my Dominant I would walk on fire for him. He would'nt ask me to but I would just because. I doubt I would be willing to go to such lengths if we didn't have that bond.

Hopefully I'm making sense.

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/8/2004 3:25:55 PM

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To clarify myself, when I speak T/b, from my perspective I am talking about what I have experienced in my twenty-four years of living this lifestyle.

I may not have known that this sub-culture existed in my 14.5 yr. marriage, but it was D/s with BDSM activities...in retrospect we were D/s, he was also the one who inflicted pain -pleasurable pain, but pain, none-the-less-( aka sadist) and I enoyed it ( aka masochist) throughout the relationship, even if we didn't use the terminology I know today.

When I speak of T/b, I did not even consider...those people in an existing loving relationship, because I would need go outside my home to find a Top. For me, a Top is a willing participant in a scene, private or at a play party. In my experiences in T/b...I have not known the person long enough to have fallen in love, but have shared enough information to be in a scene, and when I am at a play party, I am usually with my own group of friends who will watch over me.

I forget that single people have perspectives which differ from those of couples. I only speak of my own perspective, which is usually based upon my own life experiences. I gave my perspective and certainly did not mean to insult anyone, if I did, my humble apologies.

Humbly,

feather

"Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." Theodore Geisel (Dr. Seuss)

LIKE MINDS BOUND-AL

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/8/2004 3:32:42 PM

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Hi,
i thought i'd add a little more now that there are several replies. my main question for the thread is how people feel about love as it applies to expressing their submissive nature. So far it looks fairly split down the line between those expressing it as a necessity and those who don't. One thing to note...my introduction came through a ProDomme because at the time, that was all i was aware existed. In fact, it wasn't until about a year later that i discovered this was a lifestyle for couples or groups. It's funny how the world opens up to you depending on the path you're on in the beginning. i wish i had known about this lifestyle years ago but i suppose a lot of us feel this way. Anyway, it's all very interesting what people are saying here and hope more respond.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 12:10:52 AM

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quote:

agree with feathery on the Top/bottom. These are usually people not connected by anything but play. Therefore there is really no emotional attachment there at all.

Midear Gloria-

I know you said usually, but I'd like to counter the thought, from my own experience. MizSuz has bottomed to me (there is no mistaking it for submission), with a good deal of satisfation all around. I have bottomed a few times to her (thought I still can't find my Maso-self) with some success.

I love Suz as on of the great loves of my life- I know that if years from now I showed up on her doorstep, I'd be as welcome as I ever was- and as welcome as she would be on mine.

there is nothing in this uncertain world that I doubt less than that I love that lady of grace, power and distinction, the only person I have ever addressed as 'Madame', who has been there for me when I needed it most.

So to think of top/bottom SM as loveless is really quite wrong-

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 11:04:53 AM

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Topcat,

If the two of you have never played together would you still care for her?
I bet you would. I was referring to those people whom may meet at a party. Play and go home. Sure they may meet at the next party and play again. Most don't develop relationships the way the two of you have. At least not in my experience.

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RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 3:23:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I agree with feathery on the Top/bottom. These are usually people not connected by anything but play. Therefore there is really no emotional attachment there at all.

My experience differs significantly. SM is my preferred dynamic, and to suggest that there's no connection beyond play simply isn't true, at least in my interactions. In fact, it rather belittles some significant relationships in my life.

I play with friends; I play with lovers; I occasionally play with strangers too. There's always SOME sort of connection - be it physical, mental, emotional, or whatever - and often that connection is quite significant. If there wasn't a connection of some sort it would be a rather empty experience for me. This tends to be true for most people I know who enjoy SM interactions without d/s.

Not all love is "romantic" love, and not all emotional attachment has to be love. I love many people in many different ways. It doesn't have to be the "sweep you off your feet and make your heart go pitter patter" kind of feeling to be love. In fact, I tend to attribute that more to hormones than any real depth of feeling.

Suggesting that those of us who enjoy our SM without d/s associated are engaging in unemotional, disconnected interactions feels like yet another one of those hierarchies where d/s is somehow above/better than/deeper/more significant than SM. It's more than a little insulting from where I'm sitting. Life doesn't have to be vertical.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

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RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 4:33:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

Topcat,

If the two of you have never played together would you still care for her?
I bet you would. I was referring to those people whom may meet at a party. Play and go home. Sure they may meet at the next party and play again. Most don't develop relationships the way the two of you have. At least not in my experience.

Hi Gloria:

It's interesting that you ask this question. It took me back to the beginning with Lawrence. As I recall we spent a couple of years running into each other socially and very casually...more in passing than anything. I remember thinking "Hmm...cute...seems intelligent...potentially fuckable. Too bad he's on the wrong side of the whip" and then (as I often do) forgot about it. I think I remember him saying something similar, retrospectively.

We had mutual friends and acquaintances and it was that in combination with parties at my studio that brought us more together socially. The first time we played together I'm quite sure we were still enjoying each other's company pretty much only at social situations like parties and were exchanging commentary on a few message boards. You could say that the play, casual or otherwise, was a contributing factor to the relationship that we did develop. The play has been only one part of the connections that we have shared but in the early stages it was a conduit that allowed for more intimacy than our relationship had at the moment...even casually. So who's to say if we would have MADE the opportunity to become important to each other if we hadn't had the casual play to charge the interaction?

I think that opening and trusting has a way of creating bonds when you are fortunate enough to share it with someone who deserves it. Even casual play can be one way to take intimacy risks that you might not otherwise choose to share with someone, sometimes garnering unexpected returns.

I'm not arguing that casual play can seem without intimacy, I'm contending that whether it ends up having intimacy (and to what level) is more dependent on what the people who are engaging in it choose to put into it. I don't see casual play as having inherent flaws; rather, I see people who come together for different reasons and take away what they want or can make from it, love included.

Lawrence was an unexpected blessing to me. It's one of those situations that you know that it doesn't matter what happens in each of your lives, there will always be a place set aside for the other. He's part of my 'inner circle' whether we see each other regularly or not. Casual play helped to create that.

As for walking on fire, I did that with my son when he was 10 years old. I still have some of the coals. I recommend the practice to pretty much anyone.

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 7/9/2004 4:38:03 PM >

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 4:46:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

MizSuz has bottomed to me (there is no mistaking it for submission), with a good deal of satisfation all around.

INDEED!

quote:

I love Suz as on of the great loves of my life- I know that if years from now I showed up on her doorstep, I'd be as welcome as I ever was- and as welcome as she would be on mine.

there is nothing in this uncertain world that I doubt less than that I love that lady of grace, power and distinction, the only person I have ever addressed as 'Madame', who has been there for me when I needed it most.

So to think of top/bottom SM as loveless is really quite wrong-

You have always been able to humble and honor me. What makes it most special is that it flows from you as the simple truth.

I love you too, my friend; and yes, you ALWAYS have a home.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 5:04:30 PM

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I can't speak for anyone else.

Hell, I can't speak for me totally.

I can "play" with anyone as long as everyone knows it is just "play".

To serve her, by say, changing her motor oil, I have to be in love*. Whether she must be in love to let me change her motor oil is a different issue.

*a crush will do in a pinch.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 11:11:24 PM

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quote:

If the two of you have never played together would you still care for her?
I bet you would.

Midear Gloria-

Oh hell- I think I'd still love her if I'd never met her. Really.

quote:

I was referring to those people whom may meet at a party. Play and go home.

For me (IMX, IMO, ETC), even when I meet someone and just do a simple clear cut top/bottom scene with them, there is still some connection. Calling it love wouldn't be right, but it wouldn't be all wrong, either.

Anytime I work with someone, be it D/s or old school SM, I am using their body to get a grip on their soul (or heart or spirit or whatever), so _for me_, it's always a bit more than just leather on skin....

Stay warm,
Lawrence

< Message edited by topcat -- 7/9/2004 11:14:24 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Love in D/s - 7/9/2004 11:13:19 PM

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Bella-

ditto.

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

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RE: Love in D/s - 7/13/2004 5:12:08 AM

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I can play with anyone, I don't have to be in a relationship to enjoy it. Saying that, kink play isn't what floats my boat, it's just all good fun, on both sides of the crop.

For me to submit to, or dominate someone (should the opportunity arise), then I would have to have formed an emotional connection with them previously. The same goes for sex - I can enjoy sex without being in love, but it's the intimacy, emotional connection and love that rocks my socks.

Whatever anyone else does is their business

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Love in D/s - 7/15/2004 11:52:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

Hi,
i thought i'd add a little more now that there are several replies. my main question for the thread is how people feel about love as it applies to expressing their submissive nature.

anthrosub

*deep breath Berlin*
Hey, Anthro- (and everyone else out there in the Big, Bad World)-
Love is the deciding factor in my submisssion. Perhaps that makes me a slave to the heart, overly dramatic or just a bit silly, but keep in mind that I am **selectively submissive**. I can have sex without love, can have sex with love, but can not submit without love. That's how it applies to me.
Hope that was the answer you were looking for.
As Always
Berlin

(in reply to anthrosub)

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