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RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/25/2005 5:55:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

I honestly don't see that there is enough of the story told here to base an opinion on...

Threads get posted all the time where we only know one side of the story. If you feel that's unfair to the other person (whoever they are) then don't post. If you don't think there is enough of a story, then how come you have an opinion?

quote:

Drama...

It would seem your girl is too focused on her cyber community. Ever hear the phrase.. Airing your dirty laundry... tacky.

quote:

Similar to what is happening here? No one knows for sure what happened or how she got the opinions she got... it could have easily been the same way he is getting opinions now... could even have been from some of the same people?

He's asking for opinions about HIS experience with someone...again, people do that all the time. It's HIS experience of the situation - I don't see how that's airing dirty laundry.

quote:

I think I've made my point... but just in case... there is a lot more going on then has been shared with us .... a little clarity would be nice.

Jewel

What point have you made? That there are two sides to this story? Wow, what a revelation. And if YOU know about more than is posted here and are unhappy with the OP, why not send a PM?

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/25/2005 6:46:04 PM

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Emerald,
I just had to say that whenever i read a question, i look for your response. you have such a great grasp on reality!
you go girl!

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/25/2005 7:29:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: felineone

Emerald,
I just had to say that whenever i read a question, i look for your response. you have such a great grasp on reality!
you go girl!

Wow thanks, be careful people might start to think I'm creating profiles to compliment myself. I'm sure there will be things we disagree on or perspectives where we differ, and I hope you can find value in those as well. Appreciate the thanks though!

(in reply to felineone)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/25/2005 8:52:46 PM

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I came here to simply ask a question about something I was having trouble deciphering. I didn't want it to turn into a bashfest. Maybe I should have chosen a different example to reflect my question. So be it. What's done is done.

Once again, I appreciate everyone's input but I've gotten the answers I wanted and I'm done with this thread.

If anybody has anything else they want to say to me, you know where to find me.

_____________________________

Compassion is a wonderful thing...taken in moderation!

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/25/2005 9:36:06 PM

Veav

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny
I came here to simply ask a question about something I was having trouble deciphering. I didn't want it to turn into a bashfest.

Boy, are you on the wrong board... :P

_____________________________

Yes, I am Gordon Freeman. Accept this, and move on with your life.

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/26/2005 8:04:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny

I came here to simply ask a question about something I was having trouble deciphering. I didn't want it to turn into a bashfest. Maybe I should have chosen a different example to reflect my question. So be it. What's done is done.

I saw it as that as well. Some people are going to give you helpful advice and some people won't. You just need to learn to weed through it. I hope some of the contributions helped you shed light on some issues.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/26/2005 8:19:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny

I asked her to send a reply thanking them for the offer but declining.

There are times that Master will ask me something that makes me uncomfortable. It's frequently little things like "Where do you want to eat tonight?" I'm so worried about choosing something that he's not in the mood for, but I still answer his question.

Seems to me that there many other issues and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. I do not think your request was unreasonable.

To me obedience does not mean you're a doormat. Blind obedience means you're a doormat.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/26/2005 8:57:20 AM

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Nevermind.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 8/26/2005 12:16:15 PM >

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to OsideGirl)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 8/26/2005 2:20:52 PM

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From: Philadelphia, PA
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I see a lot horseshit here. I think your request was perfectly normal. All you did was tell her to pass on a message. If she couldn't do a simple thing like that without turning it into a circus, then you are better off without her.

The people who told her she was right on this were handicapped two ways. First of all, they no doubt heard this story through HER interpretation. They only heard your side of it as SHE interpreted it. Secondly, they've all been brainwashed by SCC mandates that dominants can't dominate unless the submissive gives her approval. Too many think that submission means what you're told only when you feel like it, and only when it's something you would have done yourself if no asked. Anything outside of that is dismissed as wrong or unhealthy.

Doormat is nothing more than derogatory term used to insult others. Here's a clue I use myself. When I see a so-called slave or submissive use the phrase "I'm not a doormat" I move along quietly. Nine times out of ten, this is a warning sign to me. The person who uses this phrase is NOT submissive, NOT obedient, and NOT going to be compatible with my needs. I'm sure there are exceptions. But when I'm sorting out which people to approach, and which ones to avoid, this rule saves me a lot of trouble.

_____________________________

Master Hyde
A self-righteous, poly, dominant, possessive control freak with strong paternal tendencies and a sadistic inner child

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/2/2005 8:47:27 PM

wantinaSireorSir

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i do not believe that obedience equals doormat.

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/2/2005 10:22:09 PM

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What an interesting and insightful topic. I myself have been accused from those outside our relationship of being a doormat or a "trained monkey". In one instance it was merely because they watched me obey my master without argument, do something that they themselves would find difficult to submit to. I agree that doormat is used far too much as an insult to those who do choose to actually submit and obey. I wonder if those using the term feel threatened, or less submissive and therefor feel the need to strike out in a derogatory manner so that they feel justified. I know one person who I would really define as a doormat. She has no opinion of her own, no sense of self, and really makes me sad. She is needy to the point of unhealthy obsession, and doesn't like herself at all. I feel she submits because she feels she has no choice, and that if she doesn't no one will love her. She is not healthy, in my opinion.
I don't see obeying an exceediningly basic and simple command as an indication of being a doormat. Its called submitting.

(in reply to wantinaSireorSir)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/3/2005 4:38:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny

I'm not a demanding person but I put a great deal of value on simple obedience from my submissive. One day my sub was online, chatting with a couple, and they invited us to join them on a trip they had planned to Las Vegas. As much as we wanted to go, we simply didn't have the money or time to spend. I asked her to send a reply thanking them for the offer but declining. Her response to me was, "That's your responsibility.".

She wasn't going to respond because she felt it was my responsibility? Her reasoning was two fold: 1) Because two months earlier I had swapped a few e-mails with the Dom of this couple they were MY friends and therefore I was responsible for all communications with them, and; 2) She felt that because I was the Dom it was simply my place to respond to the invitation.

Based on this it seems you attempted to explore why she felt it was your responsibility, I'll give you marks for that. Based on what you've said I would hazard a guess that perhaps she was uncomfortable writing the note to decline the invitation. Perhaps because it seemed to her like a confrontation, disappointing someone, etc. and those things made her uncomfortable, so she sought to avoid it. Part of that avoidance was to shift the responsibility to you.

quote:

Now, maybe I'm just too simple minded but considering she was already sitting at the computer and chatting with them I just didn't see her logic. After a little prodding she finally responded as I asked but that wasn't the end of it.

It seems simple to you because for you its a trivial thing, either there was something else that this was merely a symptom of, or else writing the note was a big deal to her.

quote:

She was so upset that I asked her to respond to the invitation that she decided to ask other Doms what they thought about it. A couple of days later she called me to tell me that everyone she talked to agreed with her and that I was wrong.

She felt resentment towards you for making her do something she was uncomfortable doing, so she looked for a way to justify her feeling of resentment.

quote:

Does wanting obedience from your sub mean you're treating them as a 'doormat'? I realize everyone lives this lifestyle differently but I've always thought obedience comes with the choice of being a sub or slave.

Wanting obedience from someone within the boundaries of the relationship is certainly not treating them as a doormat. Based on what you've said it sounds as though she was using that as a means of justifying her own behavior... unfortunately at your expense. From what has been said I am left wondering if there is a pattern of behavior with her of avoiding responsibility. She seems like someone who is emotionally immature and irresponsible and perhaps see's a D/s type relationship as a way of avoiding that responsibility by shifting it onto someone else. Something not altogether uncommon in this lifestyle actually.

quote:

And while we're on the subject...

Can someone define just what 'doormat' means anyway?

A "doormat" is someone who is weak willed, lacks a will to resist the will of others, someone who offers no resistance to the will of others, someone without opinions or direction of their own, someone who accepts the direction of others without question.

It does get thrown around in this lifestyle a lot, at times inappropriately. A submissive is not a doormat, neither is a submissive who is obedient, someone who obeys the legitimate authority of another. A submissive does not obey just anyone, they choose who they submit too. Further, they choose to what degree they submit, whether that be just sexually in the bedroom, generally at home (but not career for example), or completely and totally. Its that choice made at the beginning of the relationship that defines the boundaries of the relationship, and what areas the dominant has legitimate authority over. Defiance of that legitimate authority is disobedience.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/3/2005 7:25:17 AM

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Excellent discussion. ES2 should get the Nobel Prize or something for those discerning comments.

quote:

2) She felt that because I was the Dom it was simply my place to respond to the invitation.

Where I come from, subs don't get to make up rules as they go along.

quote:

Can someone define just what 'doormat' means anyway?

I've never met anyone who can do so in any consistent and meaningful way. I've actually asked a sub who used the term in my presence (in a general way) what it meant. She was not able to define it much better than "you know...", which obviously I did not. What it comes down to in practice: it is pejorative. Saying "I'm not a doormat" is the moral equivalent to saying "I'm not stupid, you know" to someone. It is an attack based on a presupposition that the victim of the attack has made a false assumption (of stupidity, or doormattishness). Such attacks are rarely justified; even when the person being attacked is in the wrong there are much more constructive and less self-degrading ways to deal with the underlying problem.

quote:

Does wanting obedience from your sub mean you're treating them as a 'doormat'?

No. Expecting obedience from a (random) sub might be closer to the doormat brief. But merely wanting it from someone who is already connected to you doesn't mean anything by itself. I value obedience in a sub myself - but I also value a sub smart enough and with sufficient initiative to save me from my own stupidity, and these are not traits normally associated with the "doormat" slur. I think treating someone as a doormat probably requires a lot of presumptuous behaviour on the dom's part, and I doubt many doms are really wired that way.

Quoting others in the thread now:

quote:

I'd like to say that it's usually rude to go behind someone's back and repeat things they'd obviously not want others to know. We've all done it at some point, but it doesn't make it any nicer.

Excellent observation. Over the last decade or so, I've tried to follow a simple rule. If I wouldn't tell a third party in front of the person I'm talking about, I won't tell them behind their back, either. Seems to help.

quote:

I can't figure out though how you can be made to feel like a pedophile... was she of legal age?

He said he felt as though he were being accused of being a pedophile. In other words, he felt as though he were being accused of a crime in which the mere accusation, even if demonstrably false, is enough to cause the community, along with all your friends, to immediately judge you as guilty of a heinous crime. I'm sure he was referring to the reputation-assassinating character of the accusation rather than to the nature of the crime.

_____________________________

The Big Dog

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/3/2005 12:25:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny
She was so upset that I asked her to respond to the invitation that she decided to ask other Doms what they thought about it. A couple of days later she called me to tell me that everyone she talked to agreed with her and that I was wrong.

I would ignore this judgement. The others almost certainly did not get a complete account of the situation and further their opinion of what is and isn't "wrong" has no applicability in your house.

This order was not life threatening and as I such I can't see any reason in the world for obedience to not be swift and without resistance - regardless of any other issues that may or may be happening.

quote:

Does wanting obedience from your sub mean you're treating them as a 'doormat'? I realize everyone lives this lifestyle differently but I've always thought obedience comes with the choice of being a sub or slave.

In the currently BDSM community climate? Yeah, basically it does. It is absolutely amazing to me how little the concept of actual obedience is ever considered a virtue.

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/3/2005 5:40:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny

It's been a long time since I've posted on the boards but I have a question that's been eating away at me for some time now and it stems from an issue in my last relationship.

I'm not a demanding person but I put a great deal of value on simple obedience from my submissive. One day my sub was online, chatting with a couple, and they invited us to join them on a trip they had planned to Las Vegas. As much as we wanted to go, we simply didn't have the money or time to spend. I asked her to send a reply thanking them for the offer but declining. Her response to me was, "That's your responsibility.".

She wasn't going to respond because she felt it was my responsibility? Her reasoning was two fold: 1) Because two months earlier I had swapped a few e-mails with the Dom of this couple they were MY friends and therefore I was responsible for all communications with them, and; 2) She felt that because I was the Dom it was simply my place to respond to the invitation.

Now, maybe I'm just too simple minded but considering she was already sitting at the computer and chatting with them I just didn't see her logic. After a little prodding she finally responded as I asked but that wasn't the end of it.

She was so upset that I asked her to respond to the invitation that she decided to ask other Doms what they thought about it. A couple of days later she called me to tell me that everyone she talked to agreed with her and that I was wrong.

Personally, I don't care what another Dom thinks. I'm her Dom, not them. Why couldn't she have just done as I asked?

Anyway, this little issue snowballed and I was eventually accused of wanting a "doormat".

Hence, my question:

Does wanting obedience from your sub mean you're treating them as a 'doormat'? I realize everyone lives this lifestyle differently but I've always thought obedience comes with the choice of being a sub or slave.

No, she was just using that as a bullshit excuse because she didn't want to do it. And the concept of going to others to try and bolster basically not wanting to do shit... thats just childish and (to me) unexcusable. I think the term doormat is horribly overused and basically is just used when it means one of two things:

1) This requires more submission than I am personally comfortable giving
2) This requires more submission than I am used to having/taking/recieving

I think if you stick to your guns around expecting a submissive woman to actually... submit then eventually you'll get what you want. It sounds like you made a good decision.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/3/2005 5:46:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny

Does wanting obedience from your sub mean you're treating them as a 'doormat'? I realize everyone lives this lifestyle differently but I've always thought obedience comes with the choice of being a sub or slave.

And while we're on the subject...

Can someone define just what 'doormat' means anyway? I'm sure there's a legitimate .

First, I don't believe that they are the same thing.

Obedience however could have several layers. Obedience to the exact wording, to the intent, to another order that seems to override another, unquestioning, etc?

Second I see a "doormate" as a person who lets another walk all over them -- they have no limits not because you're worked through them, you've developed trust, or because you have some philosophy that says slaves don't. You just can't stand up for yourself in even the smallest way. You are less than a person.

Just a note, 1RottenJohnny, I think she just didn't wan to hurt this couples feelings and tried to put that off on you. I think it was very nasty of her to try and tell you how to be a good dominant. She didn't like what you did, there was the door, right?

_____________________________

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/3/2005 8:48:51 PM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1RottenJohnny

I appreciate everyone's input. I would only like to say that I'm not attempting to bash her. That wasn't the point of this post. There's fault on both sides for the "meltdown" (as Fury put it) and communication (or lack thereof) played an important role. My real interest is wanting to know what defines a "doormat" and whether or not I'm being unrealistic in my wants from a sub (or slave, as the case was here).

Merc: I always appreciate your perspective. Thanks.

happypervert: You know, I thought about exactly what you describe regarding "topping from the bottom" for a long time. I've wondered if I had been a little selfish about the whole incident but maybe I wasn't.

Didi: It was a repeat relationship. We split once before after about six months (her decision) and a year later tried again for about another six months. I doubt it will happen again.

sanita: Your question is a little difficult to answer but I would say I'm looking for a little of both types of obedience (if I understand you correctly from what you describe). I like having an intelligent partner that knows how to use their head but there are occasions when I just want things done. We spent time discussing that before we decided to get together but apparently not enough.

As far as a "challenge" goes...I don't mind explaining myself to clarify my reasoning but I would prefer to have someone that was more interested in complimenting me instead of challenging me.

An example of a "doormat" would be someone who was, let's say, sick. She or he was approached to do something, and, even though xhe knew it would compromise hir health, xhe couldn't say "no", so xhe did what was asked even though it would damage hir.

What you described was not requiring a doormat. It was making a simple request of one's servant, as an adjunct to an activity she was already willingly participating in. We welcome our servants' input--sometimes they see things that we don't. However, when push comes to shove, we are the ones who make the decisions and set the tasks, meting them out as we see fit. Just because one of our servants might not -want- to do something, that would not take away hir responsibility to do what we asked. We, in turn, are responsible for seeing that our servants are not put at risk (emotional, spiritual, physical, etc.) by the things that we request. You did that. You evaluated the money and time available to your household, and decided that going to Vegas was not in your household's best interest. Enough said.

Rages happen. We've had them happen even among our most dedicated servants, when something happened that they really didn't like. At the same time, as the Guides, we are the final word. Only two have ever had to leave for persistent behavior like you describe, and the reality is that if they did not really intend to yield unless they liked the circumstances and we did everything the way they thought it should be done, they really didn't belong in our household.

Peace for your future, and may you find a willing, dedicated and obedient submissive individual or slave.

Lady Zephyr

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/4/2005 8:11:16 AM

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I prefer a submissive with a bit of spirit. Doormats ae those things you buy at walmart to whipe your feet on. I can buy one of those cheaply enough. However, a submisive is another story. The root word to submissive is "submit". Unless obeying a command is in violation of a hard limit, could cause damage to the submissive physically, emotionaly, or spiritually- ther eis no good reason that a submissive cant follow a simple instruction.

When we get invitations, it is my girl's place to handle all corresondances. Whether the invitiation is adressed to us as a couple, or only to me. She handles all the writting, and if it requires a signature, I give it. It does not harm her in anyway, to act as my secratary if its what i require. In addition, she makes out all the greeting cards to my family, and has them ready to be mailed on time. They sit on my desk, i ad my signature at the bottom, and then she takes care of them.

Sometimes I wonder, when you give a submissive a simple order that does not violate a prearranged hard limit, or even a soft one for that matter and they scream "hard limit, or I am a submissive not a slave- no way" how submissive are they? Who is really they dominant if they put up with or give into that kind of insubordination? Again, the key word here is submit!

Nor am I a strict insensitive task master either. I allow dove to question a command if she doesn't understand it. I also allow her to politley and respectfully voice an opinion. I may or may not agree with her her opinion. But, she is free to voice it. If she has difficulty performing the task, she is free to discuss it, and her reasons with me.

However, to question other dominants, is inappropriate behavior, and she knows she can expect reprecussions should she ever do that.. Thats talking about "house business". I am her dominant, and in my house, it will be my way, not some other doms. As each dominant will run their house their own way, hopefully without interference from other sub or dominants.

_____________________________

-Sir Hawk

Master of dove's Haven

"True Power/Control is knowing that You have the ability to use it, but choose not to."

Hearts in Service:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HeartsInService/

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/4/2005 8:58:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
An example of a "doormat" would be someone who was, let's say, sick. She or he was approached to do something, and, even though xhe knew it would compromise hir health, xhe couldn't say "no", so xhe did what was asked even though it would damage hir.

Fortunately these definitions aren't universal or binding.

For instance I woudl absolutely expect obedience from someone who is sick... even if it may compromise their health. That trade off, that choice, is mine to make... not my property or servants. BDSM is a "lifestyle" of many variants - and someone who woudl obey even at cost or risk to their health is no doormat - rather I see them as someone who is "sufficiently dedicated" :)

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

RE: Does obedience = "doormat"? - 10/4/2005 11:26:45 AM

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The term dormat is just too subjective. To me its someone without their own opinions. Just because someone serves another without question to me doesn't say they are a doormat. Sometimes you trust someone else enough to know that whatever they ask is reasonable and you have no need to question it. For my slave to worry if a request of mine is valid or if it has worth would be like her worring if the sun would come up tommorow.

_____________________________

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(in reply to purrfectlyme)

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