Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (Full Version)

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mcbride -> Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/8/2008 10:47:32 PM)

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=e2f15397-a3c7-4720-ac15-4532a7da84ca




FirmhandKY -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 1:45:03 AM)

I like a lot of what Ron Paul believes.

I like Ron Paul.

I think Ron Paul is pretty much a kook as well.

However, this article in The New Republic is probably one of the most overt "hit pieces" I've seen in a long time.

And it's not like TNR ("The New Republics") has much room to stand on, when it comes to any kind of responsible journalism, especially after the Stephen Glass scandal, the Lee Siegal scandal and more recently the Scott Beauchamp scandal.

What each of these scandals have in common is writers on TNR staff just "make shit up".

I don't think TNR has changed it spots in this article, either.

Firm




camille65 -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 5:12:00 AM)

Thanks for posting that, it enables me to be more clear when I say I will never vote for nor support him. I have a feeling that a lot will not read the article, but I am glad that I did.




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 5:34:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
I have a feeling that a lot will not read the article, but I am glad that I did.


I read the article; it doesn’t leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling, and defiantly calls for more research.
 
However, I no longer feel comfortable taking other people’s word for it, especially not those of complete strangers.
 




seeksfemslave -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 7:25:02 AM)

quote:

 from the link
and that black representative Barbara Jordan is "the archetypical half-educated victimologist" whose "race and sex protect her from criticism."


Everybody knows they dont exist lol




Alumbrado -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 7:59:38 AM)

And of course the evil Jooz are behind Paul... no wonder the right thinking people here have outed him...[sm=biggrin.gif]




Aheeb -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 9:33:20 AM)

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA – In response to an article published by The New Republic, Ron Paul issued the following statement:
“The quotations in The New Republic article are not mine and do not represent what I believe or have ever believed.  I have never uttered such words and denounce such small-minded thoughts.
“In fact, I have always agreed with Martin Luther King, Jr. that we should only be concerned with the content of a person's character, not the color of their skin.  As I stated on the floor of the U.S. House on April 20, 1999:  ‘I rise in great respect for the courage and high ideals of Rosa Parks who stood steadfastly for the rights of individuals against unjust laws and oppressive governmental policies.’
“This story is old news and has been rehashed for over a decade.  It's once again being resurrected for obvious political reasons on the day of the New Hampshire primary.
“When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter was published under my name that I did not edit.  Several writers contributed to the product.   For over a decade, I have publicly taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my name.”




Owner59 -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 9:52:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aheeb

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA – In response to an article published by The New Republic, Ron Paul issued the following statement:
“The quotations in The New Republic article are not mine and do not represent what I believe or have ever believed.  I have never uttered such words and denounce such small-minded thoughts.
“In fact, I have always agreed with Martin Luther King, Jr. that we should only be concerned with the content of a person's character, not the color of their skin.  As I stated on the floor of the U.S. House on April 20, 1999:  ‘I rise in great respect for the courage and high ideals of Rosa Parks who stood steadfastly for the rights of individuals against unjust laws and oppressive governmental policies.’
“This story is old news and has been rehashed for over a decade.  It's once again being resurrected for obvious political reasons on the day of the New Hampshire primary.
“When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter was published under my name that I did not edit.  Several writers contributed to the product.   For over a decade, I have publicly taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my name.”


Well, hopefully,someone un-biased will hash this out.

Did Dr. Paul, publish those words in his own news-letter,or not?

This sounds like classic character assassination(Rove style),to me.

I don`t think I can trust any right wing blog or website like TNR or even FoxNews,to tell it straight.

It`s a shame though,b/c some people will believe it,and it will now be part of (and poisoner of) the discourse.

Just wait till you see these creeps turn their money,staffs,and attention on the democratic nominee.Pfff,it`s going to a be ugly!

Expect swiftboating/willie horton, times ten.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 1:30:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This sounds like classic character assassination(Rove style),to me..

So .... we actually agree about something, huh?  The character assassination part anyway.  [:)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t think I can trust any right wing blog or website like TNR or even FoxNews,to tell it straight.

The source of the information should be taken into account, but don't simply dismiss information from a particular source because it has its own point of view.  ALL sources have their own "point of view".

In this case, TNR isn't reliable, and it's got jack-shit to do with being "right wing". It has everything to do with have a history of either inept or amoral editors and/or reporters.

Dismissing something only because of a perceived ideological bent is a logical fallacy all by itself.

In this case, while some (or even all) of the absolute "facts" may be correct, the story is written with the primary (sole) intent of hashing Ron Paul's reputation. I see little effort to be impartial, other than as a "fig leaf" to be able to make that claim.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It`s a shame though,b/c some people will believe it,and it will now be part of (and poisoner of) the discourse.

Just wait till you see these creeps turn their money,staffs,and attention on the democratic nominee.Pfff,it`s going to a be ugly!

Expect swiftboating/willie horton, times ten.

Again ... the unstated assumption is that members of the Democratic Party have never, and would never do anything similar i.e. totally morally blameless, and that only Republicans would ever step over the moral or legal line in getting elected.

You sure you want to claim that?

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 2:08:42 PM)

FR:

ACORN

American Center for Voting Rights, summary of Executive Summary for 2004 Election:

A] careful review of the facts shows that in 2004, paid Democrat operatives were far more involved in voter intimidation and suppression efforts than their Republican counterparts. Examples include:


* Paid Democrat operatives charged with slashing tires of 25 Republican get-out-the-vote vans in Milwaukee on the morning of Election Day.

* Misleading telephone calls made by Democrat operatives targeting Republican voters in Ohio with the wrong date for the election and faulty polling place information.

* Intimidating and deceiving mailings and telephone calls paid for by the DNC threatening Republican volunteers in Florida with legal action.

* Union-coordinated intimidation and violence campaign targeting Republican campaign offices and volunteers resulting in a broken arm for a GOP volunteer in Florida.

Vote fraud and voter registration fraud were significant problems in at least a dozen states around the county. Vote fraud is a reality in America that occurred not only in large battleground states like Wisconsin but in places like Alabama and Kentucky. The record indicates that in 2004, voter registration fraud was mainly the work of so-called “nonpartisan” groups such as Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) and NAACP National Voter Fund. Examples include:

* Joint task force in Wisconsin found “clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee,” including more than 200 felon voters, more than 100 double voters and thousands more ballots cast than voters recorded as having voted in the city.

* NAACP National Voter Fund worker in Ohio paid crack cocaine in exchange for a large number of fraudulent voter registration cards in names of Dick Tracy, Mary Poppins and other fictional characters.

Why not just agree that any type of fraud and misrepresentation that clouds the election process is a "bad thing", and it should be rooted out and stopped.

And that neither party, nor any single ideology is "clean as the driven snow"?

Firm




tinoketsheli -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 2:19:49 PM)

What do you mean by that? Jooz as in jews?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And of course the evil Jooz are behind Paul... no wonder the right thinking people here have outed him...[sm=biggrin.gif]




Alumbrado -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 3:38:18 PM)

The sinister Ludwig von Mises Institute and the machinations of Murray Rothbard behind Ron Paul, wouldn't be so sinister if they hadn't felt compelled to mention the Jewishness of it all... at least as far as those who swallow this sort of propaganda unquestiongly seem to be concerned.

The rumor mongering about Ron Paul is starting to smell a lot like the 'Obama is a Muslim terorist who wants to rape your daughters' or the 'JFK is a Papist who wants to force your daughters to become sex slave nuns to the Vatican' crap.

None of the major candidates really and substantively explain why you should vote for them, they just use scare tactics to get the sheeple to vote against 'them'.




Stephann -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 3:59:17 PM)

I like a lot of what Paul says, and agree with many of his stances.  Ironically, I like him for the same reason i like McCain; both want to take the big business and big money out of politics.  Paul, through abolition of the IRS, and seriously cutting purse strings on the federal government, who has become the largest single employer in the United States.  McCain, for his support of comprehensive campaign election reform, taking the 'dollar prizes' out of politics.

I would suggest that, if in some fashion or another, you had a newsletter publicized every month for thirty years, would your attitudes thirty years ago always reflect your attitudes today?  If you're not actually writing and editing each newsletter, could you vouch for every single article in those 360 some odd publications?  Especially if you weren't the editor?  His name and obviously some of his money went to fund the publications; this doesn't mean every single word there has his tacit agreement, and represents his own opinion.  Frankly, the way he handled the donation from Stormfront's founder goes to illustrate an extremely level-headed approach to politics and finance.  If a white supremacist were to donate to the United Negro College Fund, should the UNCF refuse it?  Or take the gift, and help improve the quality of life of someone who needs it?

Stephan




mcbride -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 5:30:25 PM)

Stephann, if the newsletter bore my name, yes, I'd certainly vet every issue.
If something like that slipped by once, it would be a story.
If it kept happening, dozens of times, as it did, I'd be very skeptical of the notion that poor ol' Ron wasn't smart enough to notice. And, if, as you argue, he wasn't, I'd be wondering if that was the guy I'd want as president.
I don't think "it's old news" is much of a defence, either, but what you and I think is really beside the point.
Voters deserve to know, and they can form their own opinions.





Stephann -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 6:28:41 PM)

You haven't answered the meat of my point. 

The article itself posted hearsay, for one:


quote:

"Charles "Lefty" Morris, a Democrat running against Paul for a House seat, released excerpts stating that "opinion polls consistently show only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions," that "if you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be," and that black representative Barbara Jordan is "the archetypical half-educated victimologist" whose "race and sex protect her from criticism.""


It's not saying "This was something Paul published."  It's saying "This is something that Charles Morris, Paul's political opponent, said that Paul published."  Another example:


quote:

In an October 1992 item about urban crime, the newsletter's author--presumably Paul--wrote, "I've urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense. For the animals are coming."


Does it mean anything that I think everyone in my family should also know how to use a gun in self defense?  I do think that if I live in the wrong part of town, sooner or later, it's going to be necessary.

As for the rest of the quotes pulled directly from Paul's newsletters, the themes in the article illustrate 'someone's' opinion on black urban crime.  The point didn't suggest that blacks were more likely, as a whole, to commit crime. The point is that we have created a system that locks the urban black population into slums and ghettos, where they can't get out.  The quotes point out the same thing that blacks say:  that it's the system we have put in place, not the people themselves.  That government entitlements have locked these people into a self-destructive circle.  It has nothing to do with race.


quote:

In the early 1990s, a newsletter attacked the "X-Rated Martin Luther King" as a "world-class philanderer who beat up his paramours," "seduced underage girls and boys," and "made a pass at" fellow civil rights leader Ralph Abernathy. One newsletter ridiculed black activists who wanted to rename New York City after King, suggesting that "Welfaria," "Zooville," "Rapetown," "Dirtburg," and "Lazyopolis" were better alternatives.


Which issue?  Which number?  Which month?  When a journalist is quoting sources, they're expected to inform the reader where the source is.  "One newsletter" isn't quoting a source; for all I know, the author of this article wrote that 'newsletter' himself.

But the most telling part, is the evidence of the writers of those newsletters themselves, admitting "Ron Paul never had anything to do with them, and wasn’t even aware of them." ( http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=41822 )

The TNR article says "His adversaries are often described in harsh terms: Barbara Jordan is called "Barbara Morondon," - Paul himself felt this was "the saddest thing, because Barbara and I served together and actually she was a delightful lady."

Considering how steadfastly this man holds to his ideals, rejecting bill after bill that he felt contrary to the constitution, I can't imagine him flip flopping on an issue like this.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2001-10-01/feature7.php

Journalism of the TNR caliber isn't always, necessarily, wrong, but if I had to bank on their credibility against Pauls, I think the disclaimer at the bottom of the TNR article illustrates just what sort of journalism they practice.


quote:

"Corrections: This article originally misidentified ABC's Jake Tapper as Jack. In addition, Paul was a surgeon in the Air Force, not the Army, as the piece originally stated. It also stated that David Duke competed in the 1990 Louisiana Republican Senate primary. In fact, he was a Republican candidate in an open primary. The article has been corrected."


If Paul practiced medicine the way these guys practiced journalism, how long do you think he'd be in business?

Seriously, if you don't like the guys politics, that's cool.  I just think that the 'infamous' newsletters aren't particularly telling of anything about the man himself.  Obama did both pot and coke.  Clinton was married to...well, Clinton.  Huckabee rejects evolution.  Romney likes to make up things, and Giuliani's a womanizer.  McCain carries Voodoo charms (On the 2000 campaign, he carried a 'lucky' compass, feather, shoes, pen, penny, and a rock.  He panicked briefly when he misplaced the feather.)
  None of these issues, for me, shed particularly fabulous light on our next potential president (who will, clearly, come from the group I've just named - Obama, Clinton, Huckabee, Romney, Giuliani, McCain, or Paul.)  Neither do I think that these particular issues leaves them unfit to lead.  It's their stances on the issues that I care about, that will earn my vote.  So far, of this group, only Paul seems willing to disentangle our country from Iraq and foreign disputes in a way that could restore dignity to our country.  I don't say this because I fear war; I'm a former Marine.  I say it, because I don't want my children growing up and having to worry about terrorists bombing us.  The less we depend on foreign oil and the less we dole out foreign aid, the fewer reasons we'll have to get in pissing matches with people we don't understand, in cities many people can't spell.

Stephan




Sanity -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/9/2008 6:50:13 PM)

All that he's denying is that he personally wrote those newsletters. He's verifying that he knew that they were going out in his name, which is troubling... and he doesn't claim that he tried to stop them. He's pleading ignorance at best, and gross incompetence at worst.

My personal opinion is that the guy is a heel who knew all along that these would come out, a heel for taking so much money from so many people to fund a campaign that he had to have known was doomed to fail because of those past newsletters.

Those newsletters are out there somewhere, and they'll continue to surface one by one.


quote:

“When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter was published under my name that I did not edit. Several writers contributed to the product. For over a decade, I have publicly taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my name.”




mcbride -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/10/2008 4:43:26 AM)

quote:

I just think that the 'infamous' newsletters aren't particularly telling of anything about the man himself. Obama did both pot and coke. Clinton was married to...well, Clinton. Huckabee rejects evolution. Romney likes to make up things, and Giuliani's a womanizer. McCain carries Voodoo charms (On the 2000 campaign, he carried a 'lucky' compass, feather, shoes, pen, penny, and a rock. He panicked briefly when he misplaced the feather.)


I'm pretty sure the things said in Paul's newsletters, in his name, amount to a bit more than carrying a lucky compass.

But here's the thing.  They appeared, and appeared, and appeared, and he knew (even when he didn't actually write them), and now calls them old news. And he did nothing to distance himself from those sentiments, when they appeared.

I might still vote for a guy who, when he found them in his own newsletter, went out of his way to let people know they didn't reflect his views, did everything possible to send the writer packing, investigated why his staff let it happen, and ensured it didn't happen again...and again...and again.

Paul did none of those things.  Voters deserve to know; they can decide.




Stephann -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/10/2008 8:42:36 AM)

The fact that he did apologize for material, years ago, speaks quite a bit to me.  The fact is, that it really is old news. 

I'd also like to point out that the material in question hasn't actually been linked or posted here; only a critique by an obviously slanted and unreputable source that published more innuendo than fact.

If anyone actually has these newsletters, I'd be interested to see what's in them.  If you'd rather buy TNR's word over the dozens of other media sources that have actually interviewed the man, go for it.

Stephan




DomKen -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/10/2008 9:37:46 AM)

I cannot say for sure that the articles I'm about to link to are actually taken from the Ron Paul newsletters but they have been up for a long time with that attribution so I think it is likely they are taken from those newsletters:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/ftp.py?people/g/gannon.dan/1992/gannon.0793

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/vol16/issue9/pols.paul.side.html

These seem to be a scans of articles that is claimed to be from the newsletter. Until the originals can be found I consider this to be of dubious veracity but am including them since they are the source for some of the various quotes you can find on the blogs about this.

http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc289/LSUfanFR/?action=view&current=Mowing.jpg
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc289/LSUfanFR/?action=view&current=Helms.jpg
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc289/LSUfanFR/?action=view&current=PLO.jpg

Note this last image includes not just a bit of anti Israel ranting but a series of cheers and jeers in which the author calls his cheers "Gold Eagles" which seems like something a gold standard advocate might come up. Also the first "Gold Eagle" is a fairly well known tax evader and is also knwon to be a frind of Paul's. So I think that image has a very high chance to be from an actual newsletter.




Stephann -> RE: Ron Paul...not so cuddly? (1/10/2008 9:58:11 AM)

Thanks Ken.

As discussed earlier, Paul's made it clear that the writing in these issues was not his own, and not always approved by him, personally.

Having said that, what I read, is neither anti-semite, nor racist. Below is an excerpt from the article at Nikzor:


The cause of the riots is plain: barbarism. If the barbarians cannot
loot sufficiently through legal channels (i.e., the riots being the
welfare-state minus the middleman), they resort to illegal ones, to
terrorism. Trouble is, few seem willing to do anything to stop them. The
cops have been handcuffed. And property owners are not allowed to defend
themselves. The mayor of Los Angeles, for example, ordered the Korean
storekeepers who defended themselves arrested for "discharging a firearm
within city limits." Perhaps the most scandalous aspect of the Los Angeles
riots was the response by the mayors, the media, and the Washington
politicians. They all came together as one to excuse the violence and to
tell white America that it is guilty, although the guilt can be assuaged by
handing over more cash. It would be reactionary, racist, and fascist, said
the media, to have less welfare or tougher law enf orcement. America's
number one need is an unlimited white checking account for underclass
blacks.
The writer isn't portraying that all blacks, or even all urban blacks are evil, bad, wrong, immoral, etc.  The writer is putting forth a position that it is our entitlement program that has created these slums, a position I also hold.  Instead of addressing the roots of the problems of urban poverty, we simply throw the poor into projects, give them enough money to survive, and tell them to stay out of the 'nice' areas (through racial profiling in affluent neighborhoods.) 

There's more to it; but the point is that these positions are certainly unpopular, but they're hardly racially or hate driven.

Stephan




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