RE: Non-Constructive Responses

RE: Non-Constructive Responses (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/11/2008 8:24:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit How would you deal with a submissive/slave/whatever who responded in a non-constructive manner to any form of disapproval, correction, or disappointment you showed over an error or bad behavior? For example, the person automatically responds by getting down on herself and viewing herself as a failure and incompetent as opposed to constructively viewing this as an opportunity to improve. I'm a bit of a hardass about such things. I remind my slave that she is not the arbiter of whether she is/is not a failure, et cetera; those distinctions are made by me and me alone, and she's not a failure until I say she is. And then I ride her ass about it until she gets her mind right! [;)]

batshalom -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/11/2008 10:09:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie It took me awhile to learn this, and learning it came with developing my own self esteem and self confidence. He took me down that path by giving me lots of self assessment assignments (which taught me to think and analyze and become self aware), and by requiring many things of me that were a challenge for me. Accomplishing difficult challenges brings about a sense of pride and confidence in one's abilities. So he got me through self deprecation by not tolerating it, and by teaching me to see my capabilities and be proud of them. Lovely, warm and fuzzy, and perfect. ~smiling~

liminalRapture -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/11/2008 2:36:34 PM)
All good comments; I would add that how you phrase praise can impact how criticism is perceived. When you praise, praise her willingness to try new things, her hard work, things she can control. If you praise her intelligence or innate sense, or something she can't control, she may be more susceptible to negative criticism meaning she is worthless. If she can't control (I know--wrong word, but you know what I mean?) her positive characteristics, it can feel like you can't control the negatives as well.

MadRabbit -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/11/2008 3:03:00 PM)
Thanks to everyone who contributed (even the guy who gave the bad advice [:D]). I appreciate the multiple viewpoints on this problem.

angelikaJ -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/11/2008 3:13:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit How would you deal with a submissive/slave/whatever who responded in a non-constructive manner to any form of disapproval, correction, or disappointment you showed over an error or bad behavior? For example, the person automatically responds by getting down on herself and viewing herself as a failure and incompetent as opposed to constructively viewing this as an opportunity to improve. This is also an issue for me at times. I am aware of it and so it is a joint effort... The danger (for me anyway) is that indeed,when I am down on myself it does make it more difficult to learn...

Vanatru -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 4:34:32 AM)
For that type of sub/slave (and I've run into this quite a bit), I find using positive appreciation for doing the things I like, anticipating my needs, etc also works quite well. The idea is sorta give the girl something else to focus on other than just the times she needs to be corrected and that I notice the things that she does right as well. This helps somewhat (along with what LA was saying) when they get into a cycle of self-condemnation. It could also show they have tendencies towards depression etc as well. Edit: for the nit-pickers: I'm not talking about giving positive reinforcement right after punishment, I'm talking about the dominant being disciplined and remembering to look for things their sub/slave does right and "catch em in the act" by giving them positive feedback. If all the person ever gets noticed for is when they do something wrong, it's no surprise if that's what they wind up focusing on. And for those that have this as a pre-existing problem, it CAN be conditioned out with consistent effort. If it's a cronic problem, it's possible that some professional attention is necessary to treat the underlining cause, such as: depression, cronic low-self esteem and the like (but even in these cases, I still believe they can be conditioned out as well).

SimplyMichael -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 9:04:55 AM)
Rabbit, Read LA's response a few times, it is solid advice. YOU cannot make someone change PERIOD. However, if they are ready to change (everyone say's they are ready, few actually are) they CAN change. Get her real counseling, support her in going, doing intrude into it, just support her. Remember, criticising her for criticising herself reinforces rather than improves her poor self image. Here is a technique I have used with some success, meaning it may suck for you or it may not work for her. I make them say positive affirmations about something they feel bad about. "daddy thinks I am the prettiest girl in the whole world" for example. Make a playful low stress game of it. They will often have trouble saying it, so lavish love and attention on them while they are trying. That counters their mental voice saying "I am ugly and unlovable". Make them say it over a few times, teasing them that you want to hear it in their voice that they believe it. Praise them for saying it with conviction, again reinforcing the positive. Then ask them to say "I am a pretty girl" again, lavish love and attention on them, stroke her hair while you coax it out of her. It could be, "I am smart" or "I am a good XX" or whatever, but the process is the same. What you are doing is destroying the evil parent voice saying " you are ugly/stupid/unlovable" with your voice saying they ARE "beautiful/smart/loveable. This doesn't work in a month or two, but over a year or two has done wonders. Be patient, change seldom comes easily or quickly but it can come.

sexyred1 -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 9:10:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross My partner is Jewish, so this is sort of built into his nature. I am Jewish and have no idea what you mean by this. Are you saying that Jewish people get down on themselves and do not take constructive criticism? Or that they have low self-esteem. None of which is true in my case or anyone else that I personally know. Unless you are basing assumptions on just YOUR partner or Woody Allen characters. Care to comment?

SimplyMichael -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 9:17:05 AM)
If you can grasp that Woody Allen characters are based on the same concept, then you have an exact idea of what LA means.

lateralist1 -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 9:42:53 AM)
Whatever you do don't give up. Can you imagine what that would do to her self esteem?

MadRabbit -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 9:58:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Rabbit, Read LA's response a few times, it is solid advice. YOU cannot make someone change PERIOD. However, if they are ready to change (everyone say's they are ready, few actually are) they CAN change. Get her real counseling, support her in going, doing intrude into it, just support her. Remember, criticising her for criticising herself reinforces rather than improves her poor self image. Here is a technique I have used with some success, meaning it may suck for you or it may not work for her. I make them say positive affirmations about something they feel bad about. "daddy thinks I am the prettiest girl in the whole world" for example. Make a playful low stress game of it. They will often have trouble saying it, so lavish love and attention on them while they are trying. That counters their mental voice saying "I am ugly and unlovable". Make them say it over a few times, teasing them that you want to hear it in their voice that they believe it. Praise them for saying it with conviction, again reinforcing the positive. Then ask them to say "I am a pretty girl" again, lavish love and attention on them, stroke her hair while you coax it out of her. It could be, "I am smart" or "I am a good XX" or whatever, but the process is the same. What you are doing is destroying the evil parent voice saying " you are ugly/stupid/unlovable" with your voice saying they ARE "beautiful/smart/loveable. This doesn't work in a month or two, but over a year or two has done wonders. Be patient, change seldom comes easily or quickly but it can come. Actually, this is really helpful, because it stems toward her problem. I prefer to be private about what goes on in my own interpersonal relations, more or less, and she reads the forums so I am not going to embaress her by spewing her life story here for all to see.

MadRabbit -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 9:59:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lateralist1 Whatever you do don't give up. Can you imagine what that would do to her self esteem? I certainly have no intentions of "dumping" her [:D]

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 10:21:56 AM)
quote: I am Jewish and have no idea what you mean by this. Are you saying that Jewish people get down on themselves and do not take constructive criticism? Or that they have low self-esteem. None of which is true in my case or anyone else that I personally know. Unless you are basing assumptions on just YOUR partner or Woody Allen characters. Care to comment? I comment that you are too sensitive. But generally, it's a joke based on a stereotype that Jewish kids are raised with tons of guilt and never being good enough and never doing the right thing and always having to please their moms. If you can't laugh and appreciate a stereotype for the pleasure it can bring, what can you laugh at? As well, I think it's way too soon after trying to pretend that Hannaukah is a "major holiday" to the Jewish faith to start taking any umbrage under that label and be taken seriously.

Rover -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 12:35:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross But generally, it's a joke based on a stereotype that Jewish kids are raised with tons of guilt and never being good enough and never doing the right thing and always having to please their moms. I believe the joke involves the guilt inflicted by Catholic and Jewish mothers upon their children. And being a Catholic myself, I can appreciate the humor in that portrayal that is based (like any good joke) upon a kernal of truth (in the cumulative sense, not necessarily for the individual). John

MadRabbit -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 12:38:33 PM)
Italian men can be just as bad with that. (Tony's Soprano's Mother)

sexyred1 -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 1:26:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: I am Jewish and have no idea what you mean by this. Are you saying that Jewish people get down on themselves and do not take constructive criticism? Or that they have low self-esteem. None of which is true in my case or anyone else that I personally know. Unless you are basing assumptions on just YOUR partner or Woody Allen characters. Care to comment? I comment that you are too sensitive. But generally, it's a joke based on a stereotype that Jewish kids are raised with tons of guilt and never being good enough and never doing the right thing and always having to please their moms. If you can't laugh and appreciate a stereotype for the pleasure it can bring, what can you laugh at? As well, I think it's way too soon after trying to pretend that Hannaukah is a "major holiday" to the Jewish faith to start taking any umbrage under that label and be taken seriously. LMFAO. That's hilarious. I am so glad you find my posts to be of such interest that you would remember that far back. I maintain that my choice of whether I consider a holiday to be major or not is my fucking choice, not to be determined by you or anyone else. I find it sickening to see anti-semitism in any guise, especially from someone who is dating a Jewish person. If you think that laughing at stereotypes makes it fine, let your Jewish partner deal with it, I don't have to. Oh, and fuck you if you don't like my opinion. I am not sensitive; I just do not suffer fools gladly; I don't like stereotypes in any form.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 1:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 LMFAO. That's hilarious. I am so glad you find my posts to be of such interest that you would remember that far back. I maintain that my choice of whether I consider a holiday to be major or not is my fucking choice, not to be determined by you or anyone else. Actually it's just how my mind works- I've got an insanely good relational memory. It's how I do all my linkings so quickly and so well. It's how I can do training and other things people think are "psychic" so well. It's not really anything I put effort into, it's just how my mind works. quote: I find it sickening to see anti-semitism in any guise, especially from someone who is dating a Jewish person. If you think that laughing at stereotypes makes it fine, let your Jewish partner deal with it, I don't have to. Very true, but you chose to deal with it by responding to it. quote: Oh, and fuck you if you don't like my opinion. I am not sensitive; I just do not suffer fools gladly; I don't like stereotypes in any form. But you certainly do live up to a few of them very well :)

sexyred1 -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 1:48:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 LMFAO. That's hilarious. I am so glad you find my posts to be of such interest that you would remember that far back. I maintain that my choice of whether I consider a holiday to be major or not is my fucking choice, not to be determined by you or anyone else. Actually it's just how my mind works- I've got an insanely good relational memory. It's how I do all my linkings so quickly and so well. It's how I can do training and other things people think are "psychic" so well. It's not really anything I put effort into, it's just how my mind works. quote: I find it sickening to see anti-semitism in any guise, especially from someone who is dating a Jewish person. If you think that laughing at stereotypes makes it fine, let your Jewish partner deal with it, I don't have to. Very true, but you chose to deal with it by responding to it. quote: Oh, and fuck you if you don't like my opinion. I am not sensitive; I just do not suffer fools gladly; I don't like stereotypes in any form. But you certainly do live up to a few of them very well :) You're a riot LA. I am not a member of your fan club, so keep on with your egotistical nonsense. And I will keep responding to that nonsense if I choose to. There is no stereotype here; just someone who sees through your bullshit which stinks so badly you can smell from here.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 1:51:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 You're a riot LA. I am not a member of your fan club, so keep on with your egotistical nonsense. And I will keep responding to that nonsense if I choose to. There is no stereotype here; just someone who sees through your bullshit which stinks so badly you can smell from here. So you wouldn't laugh if I called you a JAP? Or that you've never laughed at such a joke before?

AquaticSub -> RE: Non-Constructive Responses (1/12/2008 1:55:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: I am Jewish and have no idea what you mean by this. Are you saying that Jewish people get down on themselves and do not take constructive criticism? Or that they have low self-esteem. None of which is true in my case or anyone else that I personally know. Unless you are basing assumptions on just YOUR partner or Woody Allen characters. Care to comment? I comment that you are too sensitive. But generally, it's a joke based on a stereotype that Jewish kids are raised with tons of guilt and never being good enough and never doing the right thing and always having to please their moms. If you can't laugh and appreciate a stereotype for the pleasure it can bring, what can you laugh at? As well, I think it's way too soon after trying to pretend that Hannaukah is a "major holiday" to the Jewish faith to start taking any umbrage under that label and be taken seriously. I'm sorry Red, but I have to agree with her. It's a joking stereotype like the whole Catholic guilt thing. Part of Val's family is Jewish, a good number of our friends either are or have Jewish family and we make a lot of jokes about the whole "Jewish guilt" thing. Just like we make jokes about the fluffy bunny Pagans and the Jesus Crispies (think the kids who walk around wearing shirts with Jesus logos).

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