Forgiveness (Full Version)

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KenDckey -> Forgiveness (1/23/2008 6:55:18 AM)

Last night at a meeting I attended, a good friend brought up an interesting point.

We were discussing universal healthcare (I am a con he is a pro).   I stated that one of the reasons that I am a con is that Hilary wanted to put people in jail and fine hell out of them for seeing a doc of their choice not the one that "she" picked.

He said that was a long time ago and she should have been forgiven because it was a mistake.

Regardless of whether I agree or disagree it brought up a whole bunch of interesting questions.  Should Bush be forgiven for his National Guard duty in Viet Name?  Should the riverboat people forgive?   Just how far back should a mistake be forgiven?  Should an elected official be forgiven because he changed parties after being elected?  and on and on.

Yes we all make mistakes.   Yes some mistakes can be forgiven (sorry I stepped on your toes when dancing) and some not.   Just where do we draw the line especially in politics?




lockmeupplease -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 7:07:54 AM)

Ken--I think it depends on the mistake, but overall I find it ridiculous when politicians sling mud over something that their opponent did or said 20-30 years ago.  It's like we expect candidates for office to have been perfect from the womb, never have drank, smoked, cursed, cut a class, received a traffic ticket, worked for a vaguely-shady employer or changed their mind about an important issue.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't vote for someone with a "perfect" record---to me it means that they are not a real human being.




kittinSol -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 7:16:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockmeupplease

Quite frankly, I wouldn't vote for someone with a "perfect" record---to me it means that they are not a real human being.



Who has a perfect record, frankly [:D] ?




KenDckey -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 7:16:35 AM)

Yeah I gotta agree with that to some degree.   A friend of mine spent time in the fed pen for a white collar crime then joined politics.   Someone brought it up once and he said yup he'd been to jail, made restitution, paid his dues, even plead guilty.   And has been clean for 40 years since.   So the problem now is?

I like that attitude. 




LadyEllen -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 7:18:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockmeupplease

Ken--I think it depends on the mistake, but overall I find it ridiculous when politicians sling mud over something that their opponent did or said 20-30 years ago.  It's like we expect candidates for office to have been perfect from the womb, never have drank, smoked, cursed, cut a class, received a traffic ticket, worked for a vaguely-shady employer or changed their mind about an important issue.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't vote for someone with a "perfect" record---to me it means that they are not a real human being.


What he said

and also (to add) I think it depends on whether the mistake was genuine misunderstanding of a situation (forgiveness free once mistake acknowledged and apologised for), or due to selfish motives (forgiveness only available upon repentance and rectification)

But in the end, forgiveness is more about the forgiver than the forgiven

E




Marc2b -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 8:41:57 AM)

quote:

I find it ridiculous when politicians sling mud over something that their opponent did or said 20-30 years ago.


Amen to that. It’s as if no one has ever heard the phrase, "youthful indiscretion." Remember the dweebs in high school who never cut class or smoked a joint? They grow up to be a Bill O’Reilly or a Condi Rice.

"Youthful indiscretion," is my default defense for much of my life.




subtee -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 8:50:47 AM)

Some things are so hard to forgive. This one will be very hard for me to forgive:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.
 
The study concluded that the statements "were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses."
 
The study was posted Tuesday on the Web site of the Center for Public Integrity, which worked with the Fund for Independence in Journalism.
 
White House spokesman Scott Stanzel did not comment on the merits of the study Tuesday night but reiterated the administration's position that the world community viewed Iraq's leader, Saddam Hussein, as a threat.
 
"The actions taken in 2003 were based on the collective judgment of intelligence agencies around the world," Stanzel said.
 
The study counted 935 false statements in the two-year period. It found that in speeches, briefings, interviews and other venues, Bush and administration officials stated unequivocally on at least 532 occasions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or was trying to produce or obtain them or had links to al-Qaida or both.
 
"It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida," according to Charles Lewis and Mark Reading-Smith of the Fund for Independence in Journalism staff members, writing an overview of the study. "In short, the Bush administration led the nation to war on the basis of erroneous information that it methodically propagated and that culminated in military action against Iraq on March 19, 2003."
 
Named in the study along with Bush were top officials of the administration during the period studied: Vice President Dick Cheney, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan.
 
Bush led with 259 false statements, 231 about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 28 about Iraq's links to al-Qaida, the study found. That was second only to Powell's 244 false statements about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 10 about Iraq and al-Qaida.
 
The center said the study was based on a database created with public statements over the two years beginning on Sept. 11, 2001, and information from more than 25 government reports, books, articles, speeches and interviews.
 
"The cumulative effect of these false statements - amplified by thousands of news stories and broadcasts - was massive, with the media coverage creating an almost impenetrable din for several critical months in the run-up to war," the study concluded.
 
"Some journalists - indeed, even some entire news organizations - have since acknowledged that their coverage during those prewar months was far too deferential and uncritical. These mea culpas notwithstanding, much of the wall-to-wall media coverage provided additional, 'independent' validation of the Bush administration's false statements about Iraq," it said.
By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL
Associated Press Writer
[edited to credit the writer]
 




kdsub -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 9:06:52 AM)

It is all in your point of view… those examples are not viewed as mistakes by many people.

There must be a practical path to follow to solve any problem. No solution will make everyone happy especially when tough decisions must be made to follow that path.

I have long given up the hope that I can be President…lol…or that I will find a representative that agrees with me on every issue. I will vote for the person that most represents my views and wishes and come to CM to bitch about what we don’t agree on.

Butch  




pahunkboy -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 9:08:39 AM)

No way.  I dont fault Hillary for the health care reform attempt.  It underlined just how many lobbiests are skewing -the laws!

She tried. good bad or in-different- she tried to adress a very difficult problem.

lawyers ruin lots of things.   freacking lobbietists.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 11:01:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Last night at a meeting I attended, a good friend brought up an interesting point.

We were discussing universal healthcare (I am a con he is a pro).   I stated that one of the reasons that I am a con is that Hilary wanted to put people in jail and fine hell out of them for seeing a doc of their choice not the one that "she" picked.

He said that was a long time ago and she should have been forgiven because it was a mistake.

Regardless of whether I agree or disagree it brought up a whole bunch of interesting questions.  Should Bush be forgiven for his National Guard duty in Viet Name?  Should the riverboat people forgive?   Just how far back should a mistake be forgiven?  Should an elected official be forgiven because he changed parties after being elected?  and on and on.

Yes we all make mistakes.   Yes some mistakes can be forgiven (sorry I stepped on your toes when dancing) and some not.   Just where do we draw the line especially in politics?


Interesting thread, Ken.

Too many people equate "forgiveness" with "forgetfulness".

Forgiveness: Forgiveness is the mental, emotional and/or spiritual process of ceasing to feel resentment or anger against another person for a perceived offence, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.

You can forgive someone, while still understanding that they are a liar, cheat, crook, addict, etc. It means you no longer harbor anger or resentment - but it doesn't mean you all of a sudden act if they are a completely trustworthy/honest/whatever person.

I have forgiven my crackhead ex-son-in-law for all the stuff he stole from me, the cars he burned up, the danger he put my grandchildren in - but I would still shoot him if I woke up and found him in my house late at night.  I would be sad if I killed him, because of all the wasted human potential.  But I'd likely have little remorse.

It's kind of like the story of the scorpion wanting to cross the river on the frog's back to escape a forest fire, and promising not to sting him, because then they would both drown.

The frog considers the logic, decides to accept it, and allows the scorpion to ride across the river. 

Half way across, the scorpion stings the frog. As they start to sink into the river, the frog asks "Why?! Now we'll both die!".

The scorpion replies "I couldn't help it. It's simply in my nature."

You can forgive scorpions ... it doesn't mean you have to trust them.

***

As applied to the "Hillary/Healthcare" question.

Has she apologized for her mistake?

Do you believe she is sincere?

Do you trust her words, or her nature?

Firm




KenDckey -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 11:59:02 AM)

I agree with you Firm.   My son is bipolar.   Major pain all his life.   Went undiagnosed (they didn't know that disease existed then).   Went in themilitary.  Had many good years as a soldier, then deserted.   Yes I turned him in once I found out.   The military diagnosed him, dropped the charges against him, and medically retired him because of some other medical issues related to service.

He has always been destructive around me.   I now know that was because of him being bipolar but I also know that bipolars don't always take their meds and go back to their old ways.   Do I forgive him for his past actions?   Yes   Do I forget cause he is all better now?  NO.   I researched it and still have major trusting issues.  Doesn't mean I don't love him   but he isn't allowed here for more than a few days at a time.




PanthersMom -> RE: Forgiveness (1/23/2008 12:14:20 PM)

nobody's perfect.  we have all made mistakes.  mistakes can be forgiven in time.  deliberately causing harm in some way to another, that is not as forgivable in my book.  some things are never forgivable, like murder.  i don't believe everything can be forgiven. some people are more forgiving than others.  i am not one of them.

PM




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