RE: Male Fantasies (Full Version)

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LotusSong -> RE: Male Fantasies (1/24/2008 8:25:52 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

College girls love to wear boxers now.  They'll wear shorts and pants, often in the style that men do.  I haven't had a sub yet who didn't like to wear my clothing sometimes when I was away.

  

But does she glue on facial hair put a sock in her boxers and insist on being called "Bruno"?? 
 
If men just wore the clothing without all the hooplah..no one would think it strange at all I think.
 
Now, Eddie Izzard is my kind of a transvestite.  He's comfortable in his masculinity and it is obvious to me that he doesn't feel it diminishes his gender. He just enjoys the clothing.  I don't see his clothes, I see HIM.  With him, I'd go shopping :)



LotusSong -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/24/2008 8:30:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

And thanks for your thoughts on the subject also, Shawn


You did not say you appreciated my thoughts.
booo hooo


To MzMia.."SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCHA!"



MzMia -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/24/2008 8:31:41 PM)

[:D]
I feel the love!



petdave -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/24/2008 8:48:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

And thanks for your thoughts on the subject also, Shawn


You did not say you appreciated my thoughts.
booo hooo


Me either [:(] Maybe we should start a secret club and not invite her to join!



Shawn1066 -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/24/2008 8:56:37 PM)

You're welcome.

I hope my post was at least able to follow.  It wasn't exactly me at my most articulate. :-p



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/24/2008 10:01:39 PM)

I would do Eddie Izzard in a heartbeat.  Funny, smart, and good taste in shoes---a nearly perfect guy!



LadyEllen -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 2:34:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

If men want the female experience.. why do they not immerse themselves into it..  undergo the pain of plastic surgery to become the ideal of what the opposite sex thinks a woman should be.   


Given this is human beings we're talking about, we first have to understand I think that there will be no universally applicable answers, indeed no easy answers, no precision and no absolutes.

But the short bit I quoted is interesting, for two reasons.

The first reason is that it identifies in a broad sense one motivation for crossdressing that I have found to be present - a need in the male for the ideal female. Since, believe it or not, women are people too, they are rarely able to live up to this ideal and more importantly rarely want to either - because it is a highly sexualised ideal, constructed from male sexual fantasy. When combined with a fetishistic approach, (another broad motivation) whereby one can have the person by way of their accoutrements, the male embarks upon liason with his ideal female by way of making himself as close to her as possible by way of adoption of her attire and her manner and her behaviour. It is in this broad category that I think we find the "sex slut" crossdresser - she is what he regards as the ideal female, and also those crossdressers who dress and then will have sexual liasons with another male, crossdressed or not; the concocted ideal female must of course behave like and experience all the things which this particular type of crossdresser might desire from her - and vicarious experience in this fetishistic scenario is what is available and therefore acted out.

The second reason its interesting is I'm afraid LS, with regard to your views on crossdressers! Because at root this particular motivation for crossdressing is deeply misogynistic, and in its expression is equally disrespectful towards real women, and in its commission is just as much infidelity as it would be if the male were having extra marital affairs with a real ideal woman, it is absolutely no wonder that you and many other women find it to be so distasteful. But we have to understand that this motivation is just one amongst many for crossdressing - it isnt every crossdresser.

E 



MissMorrigan -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 4:24:56 AM)

Crossdressing has been a factor in my life since I was fourteen years of age. At fourteen, I had an older male friend that worked the clubs around london as a drag artist. He would allow me to watch him getting ready for a show and I'd sit transfixed as he blossomed into the most beautiful person I had ever seen. With the exception of my first lover, and two others, all former partners/present partner have dressed at my instruction for them to do so. Over the many years I have spoken to hundreds (yes, really) of cross dressers and the vast majority of those I have spoken with first became aware of their interest in dressing at an early age, either pre-teens or in their teens and as a result of being exposed to their mother/sister dressing up. At some point, a sexual connection was made with the act of dressing up itself, not to the person dressing up.  Very few, with the exception of the drag artist (and who happened to be misogynistic with a few exceptions) and a few others, have been homosexual.

As for my personal interest in cross-dressing, I love sexy clothes, I want to take man and subject him to the sensual textiles/materials he wouldn't normarily be exposed to unless it was for a woman to be wearing them... I want him to feel the sensuousness of them directly against his skin, for him to know what it is like for him to actually wear them and more than anything, to empower him - where he can wear feminine clothes and still feel every inch a sexy man.

Why do you feel threatened by a man wanting to dress? It seems you confuse cross-dressing males with those that are transsexual/transgendered. I work in administration, have commuted into town where I have had to wear very smart business attire - Black trousers, black trouser shoes, white blouse tucked in, black jacket and occasionally, a cravat, which is pretty common among fellow female colleagues. I see far fewer men publicly dress in female attire, than the ohter way around. We adopt clothing to help us make power statements to others.



thetammyjo -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 5:13:55 AM)

"Cross-dressing" isn't new. It has been around for thousands of years and many different cultures. Different societies treated people who disliked their gender roles and actively pursued another role in different ways -- some positive, most negative.

What is newer I believe is that it has a sexual charge and has become more of a fetish.



Gwynvyd -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 8:34:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
 
If men want the female experience.. why do they not immerse themselves into it.. you know, like have their paychecks reduced 20% to do their same job or undergo the pain of plastic surgery to become the ideal of what the opposite sex thinks a woman should be.  

I have the answer to that one:

We'll gladly have our paychecks reduced 20%....screw that...30% even, when women start buying our dinners, give us 2 carat diamond rings, pay for every movie and bag of popcorn we want, cars, houses...etc....etc....etc.

(And give us half when we leave).

When that world exists...I'll even work for free.



We already do that.. but we are called lesbians.

I have a housewife, she gets jewelery for Christmas, I bought her a car, and I always pay for everything.

*chuckles*

Gwyn



popeye1250 -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 8:39:06 AM)

Lotus, I can't understand how a man can be "submissive."



Gwynvyd -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 8:47:15 AM)

I have had Sissys, and cross dressers.. and I have dressed as a male ( even "Packing" ) myself.

I think in Queer society sexual and gender identity are such fluid concepts. It simply takes different strokes for different folks.

I am very much the Lipstick les however most of my close friends chuckle about how "butch" I can be. *shrugs* I didnt know there was some box I was supposed to fit so neatly into. I am a Macy's Les, while my honey is more of a Home Depot dyke. LOL Who knew? Our straight sub is very male when with his friends.. but very sensitive and totaly intouch with his softer side when around us. *chuckles* Panties and all. I know he has the upmost respect for women.. and it is just part of who he is, and it gives him a thrill to be able to share that part of himself with someone who understands. Just as seeing me in trousers and a shirt "packing" thrills him to his core. LOL He doesnt want to have sex with a man.. he is hetrosexual.. but the idea of me dressing as one, and him dressing as a girl.. and role reversal does it. No harm, no fowl.
We both love things that makes the mind twist into kinks. Simple enough.

Now if he was one of these mamby pamby limp wristed sissys.. I would be totaly turned off. I like to have an actualy strong man under all those frills. But thats just me.

Gwyn



LadyEllen -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 8:49:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Lotus, I can't understand how a man can be "submissive."


Its no big mystery Popeye - its utimately just one form of reproductive strategy in a huge range of such strategies - whether conciously or not, and quite a successful one at that, to give yourself and all you have and do to the woman with whom you aspire to reproduce. By placing everything at her disposal and showing devoted submission to her wishes, the male seeks to demonstrate that he will make a good mate, always attendant to her (and thence her offspring's) needs.

But it is purely a reproductive thing - submissive males are usually not so submissive to other males and often not so submissive to just any female but those he has identified as attractive - ie worth reproducing with.

The puzzle with crossdressers (as per this thread) is that its not always clear whats going on with their submission - but I feel that for some it has at least something to do with offering up themselves even more completely, by a sort of ritual castration that says their manhood belongs to her too.

E



Stephann -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 9:01:15 AM)

LadyE, I think think it's a bit of a mistake to confuse submission with cross dressing here though certainly many male (well, het-male) cross-dressers are submissives.

I think because there's such a powerful humiliation/shame complex, that it requires the presence of a woman to urge him on initially, and later dole out the abuse (which is why I think there's often an abusive matriarchal figure associated with this particular fetish.)  But I would suggest that there's a strong distinction between a man who uses cross dressing as a means of confronting that matriarchal figure psychologically, and a genuine desire to submit.  The two could certainly be intertwined, but I don't think this is always the case.

Stephan



LadyEllen -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 9:28:29 AM)

Its a very complex area Stephann, but there is a fair deal of interest in and usage of chastity devices in certain aspects of submissive crossdressing, as well as many instances of the expressed desire for castration, which is what leads me to think its all related to this sacrifice of that which is most important to the male in submission to his desired.

edit - could you please expand on your thoughts about the abusive matriarchal relationship? It might just shed some light on a certain instance I've come across.

E



Reigna -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 7:48:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its no big mystery [how a man can be submissive] ...its utimately just one form of reproductive strategy in a huge range of such strategies -



And quite a delightful one, I might add. The whole "Have sex with me and you won't be sorry" thing is not only delicious, but deucedly clever, as well.

Now you've got me musing, most pleasantly, on how I'm going to put my submissive male to work ... [:)]



Reigna -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 8:06:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

LadyE, I think think it's a bit of a mistake to confuse submission with cross dressing here though certainly many male (well, het-male) cross-dressers are submissives.

One reason so many het male CDs are submissives or can become quite lovely ones, is that they're used to associating erotic excitement with shame and humiliation (from crossdressing).

I think because there's such a powerful humiliation/shame complex, that it requires the presence of a woman to urge him on initially,

Most CDs I know--and, I suspect, the vast majority of them overall--can't be kept out of women's clothing. They don't need any urging.

... and later dole out the abuse (which is why I think there's often an abusive matriarchal figure associated with this particular fetish.)

Ah, a fellow psychodynamicist! A matriarchal figure such as you describe probably figures into a great many submissive fantasies; but I can't tell from what you wrote, what you believe is the connection between such a figure, and cross dressing.  "Petticoat discipline" is a common theme in a certain kind of erotic story; and not all such stories are apocryphal. Is that what you see as the connection between an abusive matriarchal figure, and cross dressing? Other?

But I would suggest that there's a strong distinction between a man who uses cross dressing as a means of confronting that matriarchal figure psychologically, and a genuine desire to submit.

Oh dear ... that term again. "Genuine" submission! Isn't submission of any flavor largely about psychological confrontation?




petdave -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 8:28:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The puzzle with crossdressers (as per this thread) is that its not always clear whats going on with their submission - but I feel that for some it has at least something to do with offering up themselves even more completely, by a sort of ritual castration that says their manhood belongs to her too.




Put down the Freud, and step away slowly... and no one will get hurt [:D]



LotusSong -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/25/2008 9:36:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The second reason its interesting is I'm afraid LS, with regard to your views on crossdressers! Because at root this particular motivation for crossdressing is deeply misogynistic, and in its expression is equally disrespectful towards real women, and in its commission is just as much infidelity as it would be if the male were having extra marital affairs with a real ideal woman, it is absolutely no wonder that you and many other women find it to be so distasteful. But we have to understand that this motivation is just one amongst many for crossdressing - it isnt every crossdresser.

E 


I don't find it distasteful as much as I do find it just silly :)  Do I find it wrong or disgusting?  No I do not.  Am I just not interested in it?  That's pretty much it.  I'm more curious about the psychology of it.  And why men are so drawn to it.   It just does nothing for me. (well ..maybe it makes me giggle a bit)



LadyEllen -> RE: Male Fantacies (1/26/2008 3:08:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
..........  I'm more curious about the psychology of it.  And why men are so drawn to it.   It just does nothing for me. (well ..maybe it makes me giggle a bit)


Pretty much the same here. The only attractive element of it is if we can all have a good laugh together - and so many of them take it so damned seriously!

E



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