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RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/2/2008 1:29:01 PM

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quote:

Translate this figure into per capita, and the individual American is tight by comparison with other industrialised nations.

Ergo the statistical irrelevance. Foreign aid is not gift from man to man but from nation to nation.

If you wish to debate the generosity at the individual level (i.e., charitable giving), we must examine the proper data.

Consider this table from 2003 ranking charitable giving per capita per nation:

COUNTRY................GIVING Spain..........................122
Belgium.......................120
U.K.............................117
Netherlands.................110
Ireland........................100
France..........................74
Finland..........................70
Austria..........................50
Germany.......................39
Hungary........................32
Slovakia........................25
Czech Republic...............25
Romania.........................5
U.S..............................278
By these per capita standards, America remains the world leader in generosity.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/2/2008 1:29:02 PM

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Perhaps this will interest/help....I'm not saying these things apply to 'all' americans, just an amount enough for me to notice them as 'american traits'

Things I like about america/americans:-

Nice/varied/large amount of landscape.

Friendliness (as long as you don't discuss certain topics)

I have spoken with/know a lot of very nice americans.

Things I dislike about america/americans:-

When americans say "We:
-invented the Web (which is what everyone means when they say the internet)
-invented the computer
-invented damn near everything
-saved your ass in WW2
-Dare To Dream
-are the Leaders Of The Free World!
-know you only criticise america because you're jealous
-etc etc"

American movies made about, for example, americans capturing the Enigma Machine

Americas (less than satisfactory) performance in WW2...although perhaps this wouldn't stick in the throat so much if amercans would stop acting like we should be grateful to them about WW2

Ignorance about the rest of the world....particularly irritating because some americans think they know about it, and it's the most racist, stupid generalizations....argh.

Extreme reactions to even the mildest critisicm.

That no-one seemed to mind when G W Bush labeled several countries as 'evil'.

The things I've heard about the behaviour of the police I find disturbing, even more so that it's simply accepted.

Over zealous defence of the american political system despite the fact that it's so incredibly corrupt.....and the fact that you all know it's corrupt but don't really seem to care that much.

That a lot of americans seem to think that the american education, health, police etc etc systems are far superior to anyone elses.

That a significant proportion of americans think that people who don't have a job should be left to starve.

Misuse/misunderstanding of the word 'liberal'

General 'america is the best' mentality

Refusal to accept anyone elses point of view, if you don't agree with them, they don't like you....

< Message edited by DCWoody -- 2/2/2008 1:32:56 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/2/2008 1:31:53 PM

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The way you suddenly change your tune when unable to effectively refute facts speaks volumes about the quality of your position.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 2/2/2008 1:34:00 PM >

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RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/2/2008 6:02:00 PM

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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

It remains clear to me that you are filled with hatred for the country in which you live. Feel free to leave anytime.

It isn't even clear that Joanus lives here, since he contradicts himself on simple facts so often.
If you have time to waste, read some of the earlier stuff about his mercenary expertise as a teenager that got him laughed off the boards.

Indeed.

_____________________________

When you really trust someone, you have to be okay with not understanding some things.
~Real Live Preacher, Real Live Preacher weblog, 07-08-04; Anonymous author of RealLivePreacher.com

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/2/2008 7:51:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Things I dislike about america/americans:-

American movies made about, for example, americans capturing the Enigma Machine

Americas (less than satisfactory) performance in WW2...

Extreme reactions to even the mildest critisicm.

Misuse/misunderstanding of the word 'liberal'

General 'america is the best' mentality

Refusal to accept anyone elses point of view, if you don't agree with them, they don't like you....

Thanks for adding the Enigma machine/Ultra to my list; yes, one never hears about Canada or Sir Wm Stephenson in any US reference.

(in reply to DCWoody)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 4:35:08 AM

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
If you wish to debate the generosity at the individual level (i.e., charitable giving), we must examine the proper data.

Consider this table from 2003 ranking charitable giving per capita per nation:

COUNTRY................GIVING Spain..........................122
Belgium.......................120
U.K.............................117
Netherlands.................110
Ireland........................100
France..........................74
Finland..........................70
Austria..........................50
Germany.......................39
Hungary........................32
Slovakia........................25
Czech Republic...............25
Romania.........................5
U.S..............................278
By these per capita standards, America remains the world leader in generosity.

Given up on using foreign aid as an exemplar of American generosity, then?

The charity figures quoted by you above will include donations to churches. And of course in America, churches are really businesses.

Televangelism, as American as donut burgers, where if you call this number NOW you can redeem your soul AND learn to speak in tongues.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 8:10:56 AM

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Whereas your churches are....?

(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 9:14:05 AM

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Is there any purpose to your question?

Anyway, as far as I can work out, churches in Britain tend to be governed by a denominational structure, unlike your televangelists. We don't have storefront churches very often and while evangelism is growing among the Christians, they do tend to be marshalled within organisations which attempt to form what they consider "true" doctrine. By which I mean, they talk about Jesus, not the televangelist whose show it is.

While dubious international ministries do occasionally get exposed here as fronts for profiteering, we have yet to see anything on the scale of the huge US industry of marketing junk to people in return for salvation. US televangelism places a massive priority on sending in money to them, on the basis that this will put believers in good stead with a creator god. I am not aware of any Christian church which does not classify this practise as heretical.

Enlightening as your contributions are, I don't see what this one has to do with why America is so unpopular across the world. That is the subject of this thread. If you want to read views on another country, why not start a new thread? Or perhaps one where you can instruct us all on why America should really be popular. You do so well winning hearts and minds.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 10:56:17 AM

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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WHy the whining?

If an American has to whine - it smacks of trying to sell a used car. It screams-"I have not found the dream here"

dont bother blowing wind- DO something to mark your claim.

really now.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 11:08:20 AM

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Maybe you have tinnitus.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 8:25:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

I'll give you guys credit though.....in 1913 you convinced us to adopt/use—as a wealth transference vehicle-- this shity, privatized, debt-enhanced, central banking system that's been a prime factor for present /future economic distress.

As we say in America - You go girl.....

We gave you a banking system; you gave us McDonalds. Who am I to judge on whom is subverting whom? Let's call it a draw.

As we say in England, UR - there's no use in crying over spilt milk.

P.S. There's been some coverage of your election in our press lately - 'looks like it's a case of 'as you were'.

Too funny. I know Mickey D's is prolly a huge eye sore for the indigenous folk, but this borrowed monetary policy is a whole different ballgame.

Anyways....I'm not too fond of your government or the oligarchs who surround it....But the British people, themselves, are alright.

....After I unload this last piece of property I have in the next few months, I'm gonna fly with some buddies to Italy and go visit our relatives. I think I'm gonna look ya up.
We'll grab Meatcleaver.....I'll buy you guys a few rounds drinks/beers and then the six of us can go out, have some fun and thump some yobs.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 8:29:29 PM

AxilX

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Joined: 1/4/2008
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Well hello everyone, i'm new to the forums and have never been much for introductory posts, so i decided to start with one of the more interesting topics on here. A couple things caught my attention.

Firstly, the fact that the average human being is largely ignorant is a poor argument for equating the internet with a single technology. Especailly one that was such a small step on the road, yes hyperlinking is great, but it is not the interenet, and as was already mentioned, people used the term "internet" before the WWW even exsisted.

Somthing else i find especially strange is that a major critism of americans in this thread is thier alleged lack of education, when most of the most prestiegious universities are located in the United States. I've searched and searched and cannot find a listing of the top 10 worldwide universities where eight of them are not located in the US (Oxford and Cambridge generally make it in somewhere) The best doctors are trained in the United States, most of the worlds pharmacutical advancement is reasearched and funded here. We have the most techologically advanced military, we fund and develeop most significant advancement in computer science both on a corporate and individual level. An uneducated United States is a myth.

Lastly Celticlord hit the nail on the head in regards to the "generousity" argument. Foreign aid is given by a nation as a whole, and can only be meaningfully measured when evaluated that way. Individual aid is given by the individual, and if you cannot include churches in that, i call into question a large percentage of the aid that went to africa only to be stolen by militia and cause more bloodshed. Charity is charity, whether hte money is intellegently spent is another matter entirely. And incidently i also belong to the camp that believes that the vast majority of foreign aid, especially that that is a response to an economic or social crisis (natural disasters are somewhat different) does as much if not more harm than good.

(disclaimer, i didn't spell check this or triplecheck it for gramatical mistakes, i don't capitialise the word "i" because i find it to be a waste of time and a strain on my pinky finger, if you can read it well enough to correct it, you got the point. )

(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/3/2008 8:30:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Is there any purpose to your question?

Anyway, as far as I can work out, churches in Britain tend to be governed by a denominational structure, unlike your televangelists. We don't have storefront churches very often and while evangelism is growing among the Christians, they do tend to be marshalled within organisations which attempt to form what they consider "true" doctrine. By which I mean, they talk about Jesus, not the televangelist whose show it is.

While dubious international ministries do occasionally get exposed here as fronts for profiteering, we have yet to see anything on the scale of the huge US industry of marketing junk to people in return for salvation. US televangelism places a massive priority on sending in money to them, on the basis that this will put believers in good stead with a creator god. I am not aware of any Christian church which does not classify this practise as heretical.

Enlightening as your contributions are, I don't see what this one has to do with why America is so unpopular across the world. That is the subject of this thread. If you want to read views on another country, why not start a new thread? Or perhaps one where you can instruct us all on why America should really be popular. You do so well winning hearts and minds.

Thanks for making it so easy... if the only basis for your assertions about America is easily disproven distortions and claims that bad things like greedy churches are overwhelmingly a US convention (Crusades anyone?), then the question becomes, who cares what a dishonest xenophobe thinks?

(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/4/2008 1:31:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Generosity, whether effective or no, is still generosity. Despite the exercises in statistical irrelevance that some attempt with regards to foreign aid, the empirical fact is that the United States spreads more dollars around the globe than any other nation--and thus cannot be said to be an ungenerous nation. The statement stands on its own as a refutation of the demonizing of the United States in which so many here fatuously indulge.

The United States is far from perfect, and there is much about its foreign policy to which one may legitimately take exception--and to which arguably one should take exception. However, none of these very real flaws merit the blanket condemnations I have read here. The United States is a far more benign superpower than the former Soviet Union ever was, or than China and Russia ever will be.

Pointing out that the US leads the world in aid to impoverished nations is but one categorical demonstration of that.

You're waffling. US aid is not necessarily financial help to people less fortunate (it very rarely is), it is to promote US policy. As the top ten recipients of US aid shows, US aid does not go to anyone in dire need but is most definitely used as foreign policy. Therefore you can argue all you like about the US being the most generous nation in aid dollars, it most clearly ain't, as it is very much based on self interest. If you force a recipient nation to buy American even when they don't need those American products, you are not being generous, you are subsidizing Americans (remember the American frre market?). Just because there are corrupt local governments that will accept anything because they can make a buck, without caring about their own people or their economy, it doesn't get the US off the hook.

http://www.cnionline.org/learn/aid/aid-gdp-of-recips.htm

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/4/2008 1:39:48 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/4/2008 3:27:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
who cares what a dishonest xenophobe thinks?

One desperately sad individual, clearly.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/4/2008 3:46:17 AM

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I never made the assertion that the United States is under educated but the argumentative bastard in me can't help but to respond.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxilX
Somthing else i find especially strange is that a major critism of americans in this thread is thier alleged lack of education, when most of the most prestiegious universities are located in the United States. I've searched and searched and cannot find a listing of the top 10 worldwide universities where eight of them are not located in the US (Oxford and Cambridge generally make it in somewhere)

I'd really like to see those lists, not that I’m refuting their legitimacy mind I'd just like to see their criteria for being a 'top' university. I'd also be very surprised if Oxford and Cambridge didn't always come in at a one two finish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxilX
The best doctors are trained in the United States, most of the worlds pharmacutical advancement is reasearched and funded here.

See now I hear that a lot of people here seem to think that the US has the best doctors, why? Surely everyone gets taught the same thing when they take medicine (aside form differences in specialisation). Now I'm sure more doctors in America have access to better equipment on the whole ad that may indeed improve their performance on the whole but that doesn't make that doesn't make any one doctor from a compatible country inherently inferior or superior to an American.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxilX
We have the most techologically advanced military, we fund and develeop most significant advancement in computer science both on a corporate and individual level.

Now not that I'm claiming you do or infact any Americans here do at all. But I a lot of the Americans I've spoken to almost inevitably fall back onto the 'our military's the best therefore we win' argument. Yes America does in many ways lead the world in the IT industry and they should be rightfully proud of that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxilX
An uneducated United States is a myth.

Indeed an uneducated United states is a myth, in that any country that has an education system isn't uneducated. The problem is the perceived under education of the US in the eyes of the world. A good analogy is the class average you may have one class that had a good number of people getting As and just as many getting Ds (or failing) this is going to drag the averaged down the a C and tarnish the name of all the smart people, as is the perceived case in America. Whereas you might have another class that has only a few people getting As but the majority get Bs, thus having a higher average. Now I've no data to back this up (hence I covered my lazy ass with liberal application of perceived) so it nothing more then postulation on my part.

(in reply to AxilX)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/4/2008 6:36:38 AM

AxilX

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Of the university rankings i found this site seemed to do the best at documenting thier ranking criteria. You can also go back and look at the rankings every year.
http://www.arwu.org/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm
Cambridge consistantly came in 2-5, Oxford seemed to come in 5-10, Harvard held the number 1 slot every year since the study started. This stufy was conducted in China by the way, so again, i like it because it can hardly be accused of american bias.

Here are a couple others:

Newsweek: http://www.eduers.com/University/rankings/top10intheworld2006-newsweek.html (supposedly newsweek did the top hundred, but all the other references were since gone, so i only have the top 10 here.) This was done in 2006

Webmetric: http://www.webometrics.info/top4000.asp.

As for my comment on our military, i was demonstrating that most technological development takes place in the United States, military technology represents a large percentage of the goverment funded technological research, and thus is relevant to that point.

As to my assertion of having the best doctors, it goes hand in hand with having the best schools. Doctors here recieve better training, and yes, have access to better equipment as well, which again assists with training. The fact that most wealthy people across the globe flock to the United States when they have a medical crisis ought to be proof enough.

(in reply to Foititis)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/4/2008 6:56:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
If you wish to debate the generosity at the individual level (i.e., charitable giving), we must examine the proper data.

Consider this table from 2003 ranking charitable giving per capita per nation:

COUNTRY................GIVING Spain..........................122
Belgium.......................120
U.K.............................117
Netherlands.................110
Ireland........................100
France..........................74
Finland..........................70
Austria..........................50
Germany.......................39
Hungary........................32
Slovakia........................25
Czech Republic...............25
Romania.........................5
U.S..............................278
By these per capita standards, America remains the world leader in generosity.

Given up on using foreign aid as an exemplar of American generosity, then?

The charity figures quoted by you above will include donations to churches. And of course in America, churches are really businesses.

Televangelism, as American as donut burgers, where if you call this number NOW you can redeem your soul AND learn to speak in tongues.

You still lose.

Per capita or as a nation, the empirical data demonstrates the US gives more than others. You have yet to offer up a shred of evidence to refute any of the data I have posted here. Howl, scream, moan, and groan all you wish, you cannot make data be anything other than what it is.

Your self-righteous anger continues to invalidate your rhetoric. Lose the emotion and use logic instead. Then you will have a chance at constructing effective arguments about the sins of the United States.

_____________________________

(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/4/2008 7:46:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Howl, scream, moan, and groan all you wish,

Damn you, Celtic! No power on Earth can overcome your obvious genius or your sartorial elegance! You know that, o leprechaun of logic!

I'm off to gnash my teeth and wail and stuff. Later.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: ouch- USA people hated - 2/4/2008 8:01:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
If you wish to debate the generosity at the individual level (i.e., charitable giving), we must examine the proper data.

Consider this table from 2003 ranking charitable giving per capita per nation:

COUNTRY................GIVING Spain..........................122
Belgium.......................120
U.K.............................117
Netherlands.................110
Ireland........................100
France..........................74
Finland..........................70
Austria..........................50
Germany.......................39
Hungary........................32
Slovakia........................25
Czech Republic...............25
Romania.........................5
U.S..............................278
By these per capita standards, America remains the world leader in generosity.

Given up on using foreign aid as an exemplar of American generosity, then?

The charity figures quoted by you above will include donations to churches. And of course in America, churches are really businesses.

Televangelism, as American as donut burgers, where if you call this number NOW you can redeem your soul AND learn to speak in tongues.

You still lose.

Per capita or as a nation, the empirical data demonstrates the US gives more than others. You have yet to offer up a shred of evidence to refute any of the data I have posted here. Howl, scream, moan, and groan all you wish, you cannot make data be anything other than what it is.

Your self-righteous anger continues to invalidate your rhetoric. Lose the emotion and use logic instead. Then you will have a chance at constructing effective arguments about the sins of the United States.

Of course, you really do know you are talking nonsense, since most USA aid is about American pushing foreign policy, it has nothing to do with being generous and everything to do with being self serving. Being generous in my book is giving without expecting anything in return, that is not at all how ypou can describe Ameriucan aid.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

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