RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (Full Version)

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astarri -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/5/2008 4:34:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Because if someone can accept the lowest part of your person, that's pretty big stuff for some people.  She shivers, it speaks to her on some level.  Because it's pretty cool to request of someone "please hurt me" and he gets it.



Charlotte, what a wonderful post. Thank-you. I do not understand the why's though I do believe that Katy has a nice foundation for me. My only thought was that I must like these things on some level and yet my mind says nooooo wayyyyy!! I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts and will keep one foot over here.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/5/2008 5:34:17 PM)

Wonderful thread, charlotte.

Every D/s interaction I have had...even the bad ones...has taught me things. One thing it taught me was what became another premise I use in my D/s relationships as they grow: There is strength to be found in submitting not only to what you like and enjoy but to the challenge of what you do not like or enjoy or find difficult to do. That challenge is not a test, it is an indication of your own willingness to find the strength to submit to these things because of what you feel for me and my dominance. It is the deep submissive strings resonating to the dominant's playing.
Hopefully, harmony is there because of...as kyra noted...the balance achieved in requiring submission to things enjoyed, things that are neutral, and things that are difficult/distasteful/hated (but not limits or harmful).



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/5/2008 8:17:32 PM)

I don't have to know nor understnad the purpose, I just obey.


Humm..You may have given me a lightbulb moment..thank you..Tempting



charlotte12 -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/5/2008 8:48:55 PM)

Thank you to everyone for your wonderful responses. [:)]

I have enjoyed reading all of them and really appreciate the time people put in to expressing their feelings on this subject.  I will be checking back tomorrow though I won't have quite as much time to mess around on collarme while at work as I apparently had today....hehe.

Ok, time for bed (and hopefully a nice...I mean brutal...rape [;)] )

charlotte



MaamJay -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 12:33:19 AM)

I get this from both sides. As a Domme, one of My most memorable moments was with a young male sub and a can of dog food (actually made for humans savoury mince that looked just like the real thing but was more tasty and rewrapped in a dog food tin label). Watching his face as he struggled with the concept of eating it ... as he watched Me serve it into the dog bowl and put it on the floor (We have dogs so there were several tins in the cupboard ... I appeared to take one at random but I knew which one to use, he had no question in his mind that it was authentic) ... I swear I could see every thought, every emotion as he wrestled with the dilemma ... of his palpable fear as he finally bent his head and gingerly ate some ... of his relief as it didn't taste too bad ... his look of absolute trust as he looked up into My eyes as I said "good doggie, eat some more now" ... his look of absolute triumph as he conquered the inner struggle and ate ... and the way he snuggled against Me and looked absolutely blissful when I said "enough, good boy, I am so proud of My doggie". he was definitely in space, a very happy place. Much later when W/we debriefed, I asked him why he ate it. he answered "i trust you Ma'am, i knew you wouldn't ask anything of me that was seriously harmful ... and i so desperately wanted to please You ... i was very scared for sure ... but i resolved to just try it ... and i knew i would regret it if i wimped out". When I told him it was actually human food he fell about laughing, but was nonetheless grateful for the chance to wrestle with the challenge of submission. For Me, it was such a buzz to see someone willing to "go the extra mile" for Me and Me alone. To render someone so transparent to Me. And the connection afterwards was awesome.

As a sub, i love the occasional challenge from Master. Needles was probably one of the bigger ones, not that i am usually afraid of them in the medical sense, but some of the play i had seen just looked painful! The weirdest thing that time was that i didn't actually feel them ... and broke out laughing from the sheer anticlimax of it all ... but also felt that wonderful feeling of having submitted for His pleasure not for mine. As others have said though, if the whole relationship was about that, it would be misery ... but it's not. Most of it is about loving and pleasurable submission ... it's the occasional challenge that really penetrates deeply though and makes me KNOW i am totally His.

Great thread!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]



calicowgirl -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 1:50:22 AM)

Thank you charlotte and everyone else. Reading this thread has given me several Ah ha! moments [sm=meh.gif]

cali



softness -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 12:09:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

he example being discussed on the other thread was being shared with others but I realize this can be a complicated topic so I'll try to use a much more simple example. He mentioned buying me dog food once. My first thought was eeeewwwwww and then I noticed a shiver running through my whole body. I don't imagine I would ever actually enjoy eating dog kibble but being made to do things that make me scared, or upset or bring me to tears makes me feel somehow deeply content. It reminds me of my place with him and it allows me to fight and struggle and go through all sorts of inner turmoil and experience strong emotions and when I finally relent, let go and revel in his power over me I feel more alive than ever before. I would be very unhappy in a relationship where someone was not willing to make me do things I didn't enjoy.

I personnally don't see why someone would think they have to be treated this way to be loved or have a devoted relationship....I just don't get it.



we dont think we have to be treated this way ... we know that we don't have to be treated this way and we choose still to do it

the way we choose to express our devotion is by suffering for anothers' pleasure ...we know there are other ways of doing it but we choose this one, we force ourselves to do it in order to be pleasing .. and in the being pleasing we find our own happiness regardless of our feelings to the action that got us there

I was once told by a very dear One to me that he wanted to cane me across the hand 10 times ... now as one who cannot take even a modest amount of pain i advised lots of ropes, strong knots and understanding neighbours... but he shook his head and said no ...I want you to offer your hand to me each time and hold it there despite your fear of pain.

he was utterly disinterested in caning me ... he couldn't careless if he had done 20 .. 10 .. or two strokes ... what he wanted was for me to CHOOSE each time to put my hand back and not be forced to it.

and because i had the personal strength to choose to replace my hand each time, and to choose each time to do something i hated because it pleased him ... that is one of the moments in service i cherish the most.




Aubre -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 1:11:47 PM)

At some level I think there is a type of sub who wants to serve someone they don't find physically attractive. They want to be made to do things they don't like to someone they physically find repulsive. Perhaps on some level they feel that they aren't worthy of an attractive partner.



Prinsexx -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 1:42:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

Confusing enough of a title for you? [;)]

I was going to post this in the Ask a Submissive section but realized it might be nice to hear from all sides on this.

Master wrote something in THIS thread that really resonated with me.  (I linked to his post, since the thread is quite long.) When responding to him and to something cherry wrote I had a lot of thoughts going and wanted to ask others about their experiences with doing things they don't enjoy.  I've said to Master many a time "Many of the things I enjoy I enjoy because I dont' enjoy them."  It makes perfect sense to me but I'm wondering if others enjoy this side of D/s. 

The example being discussed on the other thread was being shared with others but I realize this can be a complicated topic so I'll try to use a much more simple example.  He mentioned buying me dog food once.  My first thought was eeeewwwwww and then I noticed a shiver running through my whole body.  I don't imagine I would ever actually enjoy eating dog kibble but being made to do things that make me scared, or upset or bring me to tears makes me feel somehow deeply content.  It reminds me of my place with him and it allows me to fight and struggle and go through all sorts of inner turmoil and experience strong emotions and when I finally relent, let go and revel in his power over me I feel more alive than ever before.  I would be very unhappy in a relationship where someone was not willing to make me do things I didn't enjoy.

So my question is if there are any submissives out there that might share their thoughts or experiences on suffering for their Dom/Master.  Not light pain play that one actually finds enjoyable or being pushed to do something that one does in fact want to do but truly being brought to tears or made to do something you would fight tooth and nail to avoid if you weren't trying to submit to another. 

And are there any Doms/Masters out there that enjoy doing this with their submissive/slaves that would like to share how it makes you feel.  Not pushing them past a limit that you know they will ultimatly enjoy but making them do something you know they won't enjoy.

Just to note I am of course talking about consenting situations.  Master knows that even if I dont' enjoy a particular acitivity, by making me do this activity he is not doing anything to me that I didn't actively seek out.  He knows the things that would hurt me emotionally and steers clear of such damaging things.  I'm talking about the difference between both parties enjoying the actual acitivity that is occuring and both parties enjoying the power exchange that is occuring. 

Also, I have seen discussions where people debate whether you have do do things you don't enjoy to truly submit.  I don't want it to seem like I'm in that camp at all.  I realize that I might be on an extreme with this and am simply relating my own experience and am curious to hear what others think or their experience with this kind of interaction.  I certainly don't think that to submit fully or be enslaved there is some requirement that the Dom make the submissive do unpleasant things.  I am just saying it is a big part of who I am and would like to open up a discussion with others on this topic.  I usually like to just read the boards and I find myself gaining a lot of insight from the comments.  This topic has been on my mind so I thought I would actually start my own post and see what comes of it.

Happy Tuesday. [:D]

charlotte

*edited for linkage issues.


Emotional masochism.....ie belonging to an emotional sadist who said very recently; if you want it I won't give it to you, and if you don't want to do it then I will ensure you do, as that is what most pleases me'
My disclosure to Him tonight was this:
I have very good self-esteem and indeed often in the work I do need to esteen=m myself somehow 'higher' than others (I mean as mentor. teacher, therapist). I have very good self-worth: this sometimes wobbles but in the absence of love and in the presence of neglect as a child I had to be the one who 'got' the self-worth for myself. BUT i do not know that i am loved and i do not know that i am loveable. If therefore someone gives me what i want i feel them to be weak or a liar or wanting to buy my affection. i simply don;t know love of another for me and yet I know love in a universal sense meaning love of all others equally.

Therefore being made to do what i do not feel i want to do, being made to go beyond limits i did not feel i could, confirms that i am unloved. It simply does. And in a perverse way, in a very roundabout way, especially the carefully chosen things-that-i-could-not-would-not-be-willing-to-do-things this becomes a Zen like attention, an attention that is so opposite to love or kidness or caring that it becomes a type of love. Thus, as emotional sadism, it fits within me.

Sometimes of course He will do things i do love just to really upset the pattern that He has created about how He does it and what he does as unpredictability is of course one of those things that makes me feel most insecure and that is the worse/best sado-masochistic exchange W/we have.

And the very best insecurity? Telling me i can feel no jealousy as jealousy is a turn off for Him but setting me assignments to play with others, where there is am exchange of slaves. I am forced therefore to 'watch' Him with another, often at the behest of another sadistic Master being present.
Thanks for the question.............



Prinsexx -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 1:48:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness




we dont think we have to be treated this way ... we know that we don't have to be treated this way and we choose still to do it

the way we choose to express our devotion is by suffering for anothers' pleasure .


Exactly that........



goodgirl08 -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 2:07:16 PM)

I don't see how this could be appealing without an immense amount of love, devotion, and understanding.

I do see how it is appealing, and agree that it is. But there is something awful about the thought of this kind of stuff happening casually. But, BDSM practices are always toeing the line between freedom and darkness.

What if it goes too far? What if you are made to do things that are bad FOR you? What if he convinces you not to follow the dreams you have, convinces you that he is your only purpose in life? So fucked up. I'm not trying to make you doubt yourself, I'm just thinking about all the bad shit that could happen in the wrong situation. How do you know if you're in the wrong situation?



softness -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 4:29:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodgirl08

I don't see how this could be appealing without an immense amount of love, devotion, and understanding.   I cant speak for all the girls posting in support of what charlotte is saying, but for myself ... yes ... it was only ever possible because of an overflowing sense  of love and devotion .. this is not something that happens in casual play for me.

I do see how it is appealing, and agree that it is. But there is something awful about the thought of this kind of stuff happening casually. But, BDSM practices are always toeing the line between freedom and darkness.

What if it goes too far? What if you are made to do things that are bad FOR you? What if he convinces you not to follow the dreams you have, convinces you that he is your only purpose in life? So fucked up. I'm not trying to make you doubt yourself, I'm just thinking about all the bad shit that could happen in the wrong situation. How do you know if you're in the wrong situation?


because i am intelligent, confident, secure and ultimately I can think for myself ... personally, and I have been flamed for this in the past and have no worries about being flammed for it again, I think that if you are weak enough or insecure enough or stupid enough to let yourself be pushed to places it is unhealthy for you, you are as much to blame as the person that puts you there. You are a human, you have a brain and you are an adult. You hvae no excuses unless you are imprisoned, and those poor unfortunates tend not to be given access to the internet.

Submission and slavery are all about choice. a FREE choice. that is what makes them special and beautiful and meaningful, because we choose to do what it is that we do. If you do not have the equipment to make and sensibly maintain that choice .. then do not make it. If you are persuaded that you have no choice ... then more fool you.

Many on here *feel* as if they have no choice ... or value the other option in as meaningless ... but whichever way you cut it we all have a choice.




charlotte12 -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 4:43:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodgirl08

I don't see how this could be appealing without an immense amount of love, devotion, and understanding.   I cant speak for all the girls posting in support of what charlotte is saying, but for myself ... yes ... it was only ever possible because of an overflowing sense  of love and devotion .. this is not something that happens in casual play for me.

I do see how it is appealing, and agree that it is. But there is something awful about the thought of this kind of stuff happening casually. But, BDSM practices are always toeing the line between freedom and darkness.

What if it goes too far? What if you are made to do things that are bad FOR you? What if he convinces you not to follow the dreams you have, convinces you that he is your only purpose in life? So fucked up. I'm not trying to make you doubt yourself, I'm just thinking about all the bad shit that could happen in the wrong situation. How do you know if you're in the wrong situation?


because i am intelligent, confident, secure and ultimately I can think for myself ... personally, and I have been flamed for this in the past and have no worries about being flammed for it again, I think that if you are weak enough or insecure enough or stupid enough to let yourself be pushed to places it is unhealthy for you, you are as much to blame as the person that puts you there. You are a human, you have a brain and you are an adult. You hvae no excuses unless you are imprisoned, and those poor unfortunates tend not to be given access to the internet.

Submission and slavery are all about choice. a FREE choice. that is what makes them special and beautiful and meaningful, because we choose to do what it is that we do. If you do not have the equipment to make and sensibly maintain that choice .. then do not make it. If you are persuaded that you have no choice ... then more fool you.

Many on here *feel* as if they have no choice ... or value the other option in as meaningless ... but whichever way you cut it we all have a choice.




Completely agreed softness.  I actually responded to a different thread on emotional masochism earlier and I think I was actually thinking about this thread more than the one I responded to.  The other thread

charlotte



softness -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 4:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aubre

At some level I think there is a type of sub who wants to serve someone they don't find physically attractive. They want to be made to do things they don't like to someone they physically find repulsive. Perhaps on some level they feel that they aren't worthy of an attractive partner.


not for me ... if i dont find them attractive .. i ain't sacrificing so much as my last rolo for 'em let alone performing service that repulses me ... but then I have a strange sense of what is attractive .. at the moment i am considering offering myself up at the temple of Jeremy Clarkson

serving repulsive people is not at all what we are discussing here ... performing personally repulsive service is the topic under discussion. I dont get the idea at all from the other posts that we need to behave like this to earn the right to be with our partners ... its about demonstrating love and devotion ... not making up for some failing



toservez -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/6/2008 8:18:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodgirl08

I don't see how this could be appealing without an immense amount of love, devotion, and understanding.   I cant speak for all the girls posting in support of what charlotte is saying, but for myself ... yes ... it was only ever possible because of an overflowing sense  of love and devotion .. this is not something that happens in casual play for me.

I do see how it is appealing, and agree that it is. But there is something awful about the thought of this kind of stuff happening casually. But, BDSM practices are always toeing the line between freedom and darkness.

What if it goes too far? What if you are made to do things that are bad FOR you? What if he convinces you not to follow the dreams you have, convinces you that he is your only purpose in life? So fucked up. I'm not trying to make you doubt yourself, I'm just thinking about all the bad shit that could happen in the wrong situation. How do you know if you're in the wrong situation?


because i am intelligent, confident, secure and ultimately I can think for myself ... personally, and I have been flamed for this in the past and have no worries about being flammed for it again, I think that if you are weak enough or insecure enough or stupid enough to let yourself be pushed to places it is unhealthy for you, you are as much to blame as the person that puts you there. You are a human, you have a brain and you are an adult. You hvae no excuses unless you are imprisoned, and those poor unfortunates tend not to be given access to the internet.

Submission and slavery are all about choice. a FREE choice. that is what makes them special and beautiful and meaningful, because we choose to do what it is that we do. If you do not have the equipment to make and sensibly maintain that choice .. then do not make it. If you are persuaded that you have no choice ... then more fool you.

Many on here *feel* as if they have no choice ... or value the other option in as meaningless ... but whichever way you cut it we all have a choice.




I agree with this 100%.

I think if people have problems with this type of thought it is because the words sound cold but to think about the words is to see the truth in them.

There is no right or magic shield by calling oneself submissive that makes every one around you now having to be 100% responsible for your mental health issues and personal responsibilities. I see abuse victims in my job often and almost always at their lowest points. These are not people who go “Gee, I am an emotional masochist, and just went about it the wrong way”. These people all have base characteristics in their life history and similar paths and none of them start out with getting into a power exchange relationship. The problems were there long before for those who do.

For all those who do have problems with this play and/or caused by past events I am truly sorry but that does not make this type of play dangerous for everyone or the ones involved somehow think deep down they are not good enough.




Mavis -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/7/2008 12:10:17 AM)

Thanks for posting this thread, i am sooo right there with the excerpt:
quote:

...experience strong emotions and when I finally relent, let go and revel in his power over me I feel more alive than ever before.  I would be very unhappy in a relationship where someone was not willing to make me do things I didn't enjoy.


i wonder though, how many Leads find this harder to do than it sounds?  i mean, You spend time caring for and protecting, then doesn't it get harder to see Your charges in turmoil or distress, and understand we like that at times? 

i'm going to use some of these clips to help explain to my Leads in ways i haven't been able to express that it's not just ok, but it's healthy to allow me to revisit Their Dominance in difficult ways sometimes.  But i hope it doesn't come across as "Dom me this way please" cuz that's not what i mean to be saying, although i hope by showing how i like it, They'll find it exciting as well.  And then, there's the possibility They might not, would it then qualify as something i don't like, but will get off on denial?  lol.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/7/2008 7:46:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

Thanks for posting this thread, i am sooo right there with the excerpt:
quote:

...experience strong emotions and when I finally relent, let go and revel in his power over me I feel more alive than ever before.  I would be very unhappy in a relationship where someone was not willing to make me do things I didn't enjoy.


i wonder though, how many Leads find this harder to do than it sounds?  i mean, You spend time caring for and protecting, then doesn't it get harder to see Your charges in turmoil or distress, and understand we like that at times? 

i'm going to use some of these clips to help explain to my Leads in ways i haven't been able to express that it's not just ok, but it's healthy to allow me to revisit Their Dominance in difficult ways sometimes.  But i hope it doesn't come across as "Dom me this way please" cuz that's not what i mean to be saying, although i hope by showing how i like it, They'll find it exciting as well.  And then, there's the possibility They might not, would it then qualify as something i don't like, but will get off on denial?  lol.


Nice point, Mavis...and nice to see you back again.  [:)]

That area...the one of nurturing and guiding and caring and protecting...is one that really does come into conflict with pushing a submissive to do things she does not like/want to do.  Luckily for me, as I have noted before, my first submissive really helped me get through that as we were learning together.  With her, it was letting go of that "not wanting to damage" as we got into heavier BDSM play and letting go of that "I don't want to hurt you bad enough to make you cry" while playing.  Her explanation of needing that, wanting that, having to have that in order to feel my dominance/caring/loving in a deeper fashion and to bring out a deeper submission in her and a pride in having submitted to the harder stuff helped to bring on a lightbulb moment for me as a dominant.  With my next submissive, the learning extended when I began pushing her to do things outside of BDSM play that she wanted but was afraid of and pushing her to do things she didn't want for any reason in the world except to do them to please me.  But there is still that occasional "tug" at the nice guy inside...and it is a good thing to still feel that tug.  I would be afraid of myself if I did not feel it because I know the darker beast within myself.



charlotte12 -> RE: Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them (2/7/2008 8:30:42 AM)

Thank you for sharing your side of it too Creative Dominant.  I never used to imagine that I could find someone who could hurt me and care for me and I know the person who wants to do both must also go through times of doubt.  It's funny, sometimes after he will beat me or correct me he will ask, "You know that I don't beat you because I don't care right?"  I usually start laughing because I realize how distressed I must look and kiss him and say "Of course!"  We are learning eachother better and what our reactions mean but it is comforting to know that he doesn't want to break me and make me feel worthless.  He just wants to treat me like I'm worthless...sometimes.. [;)]

charlotte



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