Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (Full Version)

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LadyAngelika -> Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 1:03:44 AM)

First off, let me say this isn’t a jab at iwill. I appreciate iwill’s posts, even though we seem to disagree a lot on things. But the mere fact that we disagree on something is not reason enough to dislike him. We are here to express, explain and debate, right? Now that I got that out of the way, let me present my question...

I posted the following to iwill on another thread: “And by the way, thanks for showing your true dominant side ;)” to which Sundew02 replied “Having a mind and an opinion does not a Dominant make.”

Agreed. 100%. And that is not what I was implying. It was a half crack (notice the wink) at his questioning the existence of dominant males.

But I believe iwill does have a dominant side. At least one that comes out in these forums. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, I believe that it is healthy and perhaps some kind of a built in safety feature for many. And let’s face it, doormats are boring and little feistiness is always a treat.

I will admit to having a submissive side. I may not submit to people in the BDSM way (though I have in the past and I’ll never say never, but how about not likely) but there are other areas of my life where a little submission keeps me out of trouble. I can't be on and on top all the time: my nerves would just be shot. Not to mention that I’m a cat owner so you know who’s the boss in that dynamic!

I’ve recently been seeking a submissive play partner. I’m all for adapting my style somewhat to other’s needs and limits but let’s face it, there needs to be a compatible start and they have to be willing to ultimately follow my lead otherwise what is the point in engaging. In the past, I was not trying to meet people within the community but rather found partners who were more often then not kinky. I’m finding that I have to adapt to a whole culture and lifestyle. So I have certain questions…

My question (and yes here is it finally)

How do you Dommes and Doms and switches and opinionated subs (insert sarcasm here please!) differentiate bratting from baiting from brazen? How can you tell when one is simply expressing needs or when one is topping from the bottom?

Obviously I am not clueless and have my own opinions on this but I’m really interested in hearing other’s opinions on the matter.



MrThorns -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 6:48:44 AM)

I believe that it has to do with intent.

"Bratting" (Nicely coined, btw) to me is just being a playful slave. Sticking her tongue out, running with scissors, being a smartass, and being a generally mischievious little wench. Nothing that will get a girl into serious trouble, but maybe a playful swat from her Dom. I dont see a problem with this from time to time.

Baiting...to me the word really sounds manipulative..and in my experience, baiting has been a miserable behavior that typically warrants a truly evil punishment....if not release. I see this as very different from being a playful brat. I see baiting as trying to manipulate ones dominant in order to get what you want. The way I see it, good communication within the relationship is a far better method. If someone claims to be submissive, or slave, why would they want to have control over their dominant's actions? Is that what was negotiated? Is that consentual? For me...no, its not. If a girl wants something...she asks for it. If she doesn't get it, she accepts my decision and moves on. That's the nature of our negotiated relationship.

Brazen...hmm...this can go many different directions. I like slaves that can communicate well. I like slaves who are willing to stand up for themselves...I don't like doormat, parrot slaves who simply echo "yes, Sir" to every comment. (Again, there's a time and a place for everything.) If a slave feels strongly about something, I would expect her to display that in her tone. If a slave is going to rant and rave,throwing a tantrum and tossing respect and common courtesy to the wind...well then...we have a problem.

There's a lot more that I can post about this...but I need more coffee.

Nice topic though.

~Thorns



Sundew02 -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 7:38:48 AM)

Interestingly enough, I just had this discussion with my D/s friends here. I do not care for any of the three, possibly my terms make it more acceptable to me, I do like playful, intelligent and a sense of humor.
The signs I see as being a brat, baiting, and brazen in type, is correcting my word usage, not for clarification but to show me their "intelligent side", ignoring questions asked, repeatedly telling me they are not a doormat, and last but not least listing what they expect from a Domme, all of the time being very stingy with information you have requested.
In person it is much easier, their body language gives them away, along with a reluctance to obey commands, and the need to attempt to change my opinion "for my own good". If their body language screams "I am going to be a pain in the butt, and a power struggle is going to occur", I listen to my instincts, and say goodbye.
To keep from sounding like I am the witch of the west, I do enjoy heated debates. Everyone has opinions, I do not restrict a slave/sub from voicing his opinion during friendly fire time when all are engaged in the discussion. Since I expect everyone in my home to respect each other I see no need to say "if they are respectful about it". A male can make a quip as he walks by, and get a passing swat on the butt, all in good humor. Of course this is my opinion. Have a safe hunt. Tess



MrThorns -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 8:27:50 AM)

chuckles...the correction thing...gads that sounds familiar!

I totally agree with your point, Sundew, that speaking to someone face to face makes it easier to determine how much of a pain in the butt he/she can turn out to be. I don't want to have to drag submission out of a person while they kick and scream about it. (Although....that has its time and place as well..)

Anything positive, in my mind, regarding brattiness, brazenness, and baiting... is associated with play. If its playful and fun...woohoo! If it's hurting the relationship, or the dynamics of the relationship..I think it has no place being there.

~Thorns



Sinergy -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 8:37:08 AM)

Hello,

There is a certain sound a mother cat makes which tells her kittens to shut the hell up. This is done as a survival thing when a threat would approach the place she has her kittens and she is not in a position to move them.

I enjoy feistiness in my submissive. There is a time and a place for it. I usually arrange a code word to use where she knows she should cease and desist. Hey, she gets a code word for me to stop what I am doing, only fair that I get one too.

I dislike being baited, but my general approach to dealing with it are threefold.

1) Ignore any behavior I dont want to see repeated.

2) Reward any behavior I want to see again.

3) Punishment should be something considered unpleasant. My usual ones are to withhold orgasms, play, etc., for a certain length of time, as well as getting my house
repainted.

I love having intellectual discussions with people on almost any topic of conversation. Im not sure I would use the word "brazen" to describe a submissive who has a mind of her own, but if it does, then I say more power to her. A submissive who is intelligent and has a lot of self-worth who is submissive to me really works for me.

Sinergy



Ladybug19 -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 9:18:55 AM)

i love the topic not sure if you want a slave's appinion though
*sits in the corner and continues to listen*
Slave Dee



Estring -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 9:30:09 AM)

Good post Angelika. I always teach my slave to ask permission for everything. That way it is always a request that I am ultimately making a decision on. It is harder to manipulate when you are asking for permission.
Otherwise I enjoy all facets of my slaves' personality. If she crosses the line, I punish her. And of course the line is always drawn by me, not her.



naughtybutnice -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 12:30:28 PM)

This is a great topic! I myself can be quite the brat and even brazen at times, but I don't think that it makes me a bad slave. I know that part of it is a defense mechanism..How is this person going to react to me in different situations? Is this person as strict as I need them to be? Will this person back down and cower in the corner or put me in my place? I don't do it out of disrespect, but I don't want to have spent all this time with a person, thinking that they could possibly be the "One" for me, and have them shrink away at the worse possible moment or tell me, "I just don't think Dominance is for me"[:-] WHAT?!?! (Yes this has happened before, I was devistated.) Should I have seen this coming? Maybe? But that's not the topic. (But what a great topic it would be)

So this "topping from the bottom" I can't say that I do that, but testing the One that I'm with, maybe that is "topping from the bottom". Again, if they put me in my place, I know where I stand, and I stop doing it. If they continue to let me do it, well I'll leave before they can realize what is happening.

I have always been a smartass and playful. It's me testing the waters, and fully knowing the consequences if I go to far. The One will want me for who I am and what I can give to Him. Isn't that what training is all about? I mean no disrespect when I say that I'm just not going to submit to You because You say You are a Dom/Alpha/Top.

Speaking my mind, that has always been a challenge for me. Not that I can't do it, it's that sometimes my tactfullness is lacking. So there are times, that I'll just shutup rather than say something that's offensive. Again, hopefully this is where training comes in. I would hope that the Dom's/Domme's out there would want someone that would speak their mind (respectfully of course). I would think just one doing all the talking all the time, would be a dull relationship. (But maybe not)

Thanks for listening!



iwillserveu -> RE: MistressZanthia gave her unbiased view so heres mine. Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 12:45:37 PM)

If I'm right I'm not wrong. Bratting is wrong. (Is "bratting" a word?)

It is like the Punisher in Marvel comics. (Hey, stop rolling your eyes.[:)] Shakespeare wrote what would be sitcoms in this era.) If the punisher ever kills an innocent person he will turn himself in. (Innocent of murder, that is, not "Die, j-walker, die!"[:)])

No, Dom/mes, are not always right unless that is an agreed upon kink.[:)]



iwillserveu -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 12:47:49 PM)

Angelika,

You are not the first to accuse me of topping from the bottom, and you won't be the last.

I could be mistaken but this is not a play party.[:)]



iwillserveu -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 12:53:23 PM)

Angelika,

To save time I copied the first post on the board she links to where she claims I questioned male dominance.

quote:

The way I see a D/s relationship is with the woman superior. That makes sense to me. I'd like to see some justification for male superior. (Hey, I know it exists. Few here are idiots. [:)])

To be fair I'll give my reason for female dominance AS I SEE IT.

Sex. I want the vagina. She has the vagina. I could rape her, but a woman crying and saying, "no, please, God, no" would tend to kill my erection.

In that situation I either become gay or just accept that women have power over what I want. (Well, I could also go crazy and go on a murdering binge, but I am busy. )


I emboldened part for emphasis. BTW, I thought using block capitals was sufficient.

Angelika, sorry this is a heterosexist viewpoint.[:)]



iwillserveu -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 1:04:16 PM)

quote:

i love the topic not sure if you want a slave's appinion though
*sits in the corner and continues to listen*


She does Dee.

quote:

How do you Dommes and Doms and switches and opinionated subs (insert sarcasm here please!) differentiate bratting from baiting from brazen?


Oh I forgot to add that apparently some think baiting is OK for a Domme.[:)]



ThornBlood -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 1:56:31 PM)

Having dealt with far more brats than anything else, I enjoy the challenge of a brat. It is far more interesting to me to have someone a little rebellious (in a playful way) than a doormat.

Now for the term..baiting

v. bait·ed, bait·ing, baits
v. tr.
1 To place a lure in (a trap) or on (a fishing hook).
2 To entice, especially by trickery or strategy.
3 To set dogs upon (a chained animal, for example) for sport.
4 To attack or torment, especially with persistent insults, criticism, or ridicule.
5 To tease.
6 To feed (an animal), especially on a journey.

Well.. 3,4, and 6 are out.. I have no patience for that and life is far too short for antagonistic encounters. But I might enjoy the challenge of the rest.. just to see if I can wriggle out of it.

Hmm.. as for brazen.. If it's the brassy loud kind forget it.. but to look right in her eyes.. see no fear.... Heh.. I'm there.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 2:36:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ladybug19
i love the topic not sure if you want a slave's appinion though
*sits in the corner and continues to listen*
Slave Dee


Most definitely!

- LA



LadyAngelika -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 2:40:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtybutnice
I would hope that the Dom's/Domme's out there would want someone that would speak their mind (respectfully of course). I would think just one doing all the talking all the time, would be a dull relationship. (But maybe not)



Thanks so much for your input naughtybutnice.

Oh how boring a sub/slave with no opinion would be! Yeah, speaking your mind give you value as a person. I always thought if you didn't let your sub/slave have some power, then what would they have to give up to you?

- LA



LadyAngelika -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 2:43:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
Angelika,
You are not the first to accuse me of topping from the bottom, and you won't be the last.


I don't recall accusing you of topping from the bottom...

Stop making this all about you. I said in my opening remarks, this isn't about you.

This topic was inspired by a lot of dynamics I saw on this board, the one between you and I only a little fraction.

- LA



SherriA -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 3:43:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

How do you Dommes and Doms and switches and opinionated subs (insert sarcasm here please!) differentiate bratting from baiting from brazen? How can you tell when one is simply expressing needs or when one is topping from the bottom?


Bratting, to me, is manipulative. Acting inappropriately in hopes of getting the type of attention you crave isn't something I care to have anythign to do with. I know several people who enjoy the dynamic, but I'm not one of them.

I'm not sure that I see baiting any differently than bratting. It's done in order to get a reaction, and I'd much rather people were simply upfront in their communication with me.

Brazen I have no problem with. Brazen equates with "ballsy" to me, and that's something I find attractive. Someone with the cojones to come right out and say what they want has my admiration.

They're all ways of expressing needs, I suppose, but the first two aren't something I'm going to tolerate in my interactions. If people are bratting or baiting me then I'm simply going to disconnect. They don't get what they want from me by manipulation if I can help it. I simply find it unattractive, and I clearly tell people so.

Topping from the bottom has gotten a bad rap, imnsho. It's something that works quite well for me, though I prefer to call it co-topping from the bottom. I'm just as invested in the scene I'm doing regardless of whether i'm on the top or the bottom and I want input from either side. Hell, I think getting to wherever you're trying to go is just as much the bottom's responsibility as the top's. If it's done in an upfront and open way, I have no problem with it at all. Topping from the bottom isn't manipulative if everyone agrees that it's acceptable for the bottom to have input.



EStrict -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 4:06:02 PM)

I agree with who ever said it's a lot about the Internet. People read to much into what others say. I have watched more than one dominant accuse a sub or slave of being bratty or condescending in a reply because they *read* it in the tone they usual speak to a sub and a slave rather than the tone the person meant.

By the same token, I have seen subs and slaves go nuts or overboard because they *think* the person is treating them like a doormat when they person said nothing of the kind.

This site has more good debates with less childish fighting than any other I belong to (from poker, to BDSM, to writer forums, etc.). But even it has had it's share of cases where one person takes something wrong, snipes at the poster, and before you know it they throwing little zingers at each other no matter what the topic is.

Anyone who finds me *bratting* *brazen* or *topping from the bottom* online just doesn't know me well enough :) Reality is I am smart, cute, fun, obstinate, efficient, and totally owned. And as long as my RL behavior is what is expected of me, then I don't let the ones who don't know the three dimensional me to bug me.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 4:16:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA
Topping from the bottom has gotten a bad rap, imnsho. It's something that works quite well for me, though I prefer to call it co-topping from the bottom. I'm just as invested in the scene I'm doing regardless of whether i'm on the top or the bottom and I want input from either side. Hell, I think getting to wherever you're trying to go is just as much the bottom's responsibility as the top's. If it's done in an upfront and open way, I have no problem with it at all. Topping from the bottom isn't manipulative if everyone agrees that it's acceptable for the bottom to have input.


It’s interesting the way you put this. I’ll be quite honest in saying that I definitely want to know what my sub wants and doesn’t want. Doesn’t mean he or she will get everything they want and nothing that they don’t want. It just helps me make more informed choices.

I agree with the upfront part too. I’ve heard of people jump into scenes with people they’ve just met without any negotiations. I find that frightfully scary. The more time I spend with a sub, the less time the pre-scene discussion will last. In fact, there comes a time when that becomes unnecessary and issues will arise in other conversations.

Thanks for your spin on this. Much appreciated.

- LA



Sinergy -> RE: Bratting? Baiting? Brazen? Or just plain topping from the bottom (7/12/2004 6:16:32 PM)

Hello,

The people I have seen most stridently objecting to topping from the bottom are generally those who have not taken the time to learn how to and actually work with their slave/submissive on their D/s relationship. I have usually seen it used as a perjorative to beat the other person down when other means (like establishing who is Dominant in the relationship) have failed for the Dominant.

Topping from the bottom has a time and a place; I could guess the effect my actions are having on the person I am doing them to, but it makes more sense to have her let me know. What I choose to do with the information I get is up to me, and I dont feel threatened by hearing it. From my opinion the Top should have a high enough self-image to not consider suggestions from the bottom as a threat to their Dominance.

Just my opinion, could be wrong.

Sinergy



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