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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 8:17:24 AM

Kirata

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Tal Orion,

By that logic, we are all slaves to some degree. So where does that get us? Answer the question directly: Why do you think a man's opinion should be valued according to how many slaves he owns?

IWYW,

Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Both have consent of transfer of some, or all powers, depending upon situation....

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 8:37:01 AM

kajirakia

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A slave's owner takes over a slave's right to self govern and thus all responsibility over the slave.
In other words, he becomes accountable over the slave.
Of course our society does not acknowledge that a person can become responsible and accountable for an other person and still sees the slave as a individual with all rights of a free person.
Thus a slave is still allowed to vote by our laws.

From the Gorean point of view my perception would be that if the Master takes accountability for the slave then he has also the right to take accountability for her vote.
He accepts the responsibility to look after a slave while our society does not look after that slave so by doing that he also inherits the vote our society grants her.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 9:04:54 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

From the Gorean point of view my perception would be that if the Master takes accountability for the slave then he has also the right to take accountability for her vote.

But, slaves can't vote on Gor. So where does that get us? Here they can.

Frankly, this bizarre notion that a man's opinion should be valued according to how many slaves he owns seems to me wholly without support on Gor or anywhere else.

K.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 9:19:29 AM

kajirakia

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I get what you mean but i still don't get it. :)
Maybe i just can not put myself into the Gorean way of thinking enough to understand it.
I would put it more along the lines off: 'a mans opinion should be valued by the amount of responsibility he takes on.'
So because of the way the system works a slave's owner gets more votes because he is accountable for the slave.
On Gor this is not the case in the same way since there a slave is livestock before the law.
On earth a slave is still free before the law so the owner has a completely different reign of extra responsibility to take care of because the law doesn't allow his slave to be livestock.

< Message edited by kajirakia -- 2/16/2008 9:23:00 AM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 9:56:12 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

I would put it more along the lines off: 'a mans opinion should be valued by the amount of responsibility he takes on.'

Let's say, then, that me and a couple of other guys sit down to vote on something. And let's say, purely hypothetically, that in my life I have taken on the responsibilities of a 4-bedroom house, two cars, a pick-up truck, and a boat, while they only own 1-bedroom homes and one car each. Why bother to vote? I'll just tell them how things are going to be.

That's how you would put it?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/16/2008 10:25:07 AM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 10:29:35 AM

kajirakia

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The diffrence i see between owning the slave and owning the house is that a house does not get allowed voting rights by law.

I completely agree that if we had a legal system like on Gor where a slave was full legal property by law that a man should get more votes because he owned more slaves.
On Gor, the slaves rights would be limited by law in such a way that they type of accountability the man took on by owning the slave didn't have the same in pact as it would here on earth.
In our legal system the slave's legal rights and duties do not change when she becomes a slave, therefor i feel that if a man is willing to take responsibility for the slave's legal duties and rights he should also get the benefits that come with those duties and rights.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 10:46:41 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

In our legal system the slave's legal rights and duties do not change when she becomes a slave, therefor i feel that if a man is willing to take responsibility for the slave's legal duties and rights he should also get the benefits that come with those duties and rights.

In our legal system, there is no circumstance in which any person has a "right" to compel someone else's voting decision.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/16/2008 10:50:57 AM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:02:07 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

From the Gorean point of view my perception would be that if the Master takes accountability for the slave then he has also the right to take accountability for her vote.

From a Gorean point of view whoever has the most tarns, ships, kalana bows, whatever wins. Elections have nothing to do with it.

Thus, we are left with an Earth question (and one that varies from government to government).

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:28:07 AM

kajirakia

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quote:

In our legal system, there is no circumstance in which any person has a "right" to compel someone else's voting decision.

K.

I had not thought about it in those terms but you are right.
If i start from the notion that a slave is not a right less being to begin with and that the Master simply takes responsibility of those rights then he himself has no right to tell her how to vote.

In America there is the option for the slave to not vote should it not be found appropriate for her to do so.
There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.
Do you feel that in such a case again the Master has no business whom his slave votes for?

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:32:12 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.

Name them.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:38:17 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.

Name them.

If memory serves, SFM and Soshi have commented that this is the case in Australia.

Regards-
Grace

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:49:36 AM

kajirakia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.

Name them.

The Netherlands, Thailand, Australia, Luxembourg, Greece and Belgium for instance.
There are a lot more but most countries do not actually punish when somebody doesn't vote.

From the ones i named here i know that at least Thailand and Belgium do prosecute if somebody doesn't vote.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:50:20 AM

Musicmystery

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Not exactly reliable sources.

So what--if they don't vote, they go to jail?

I'd need to see the proof.

Tim

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:52:29 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.

Name them.

The Netherlands, Thailand, Australia, Luxembourg, Greece and Belgium for instance.
There are a lot more but most countries do not actually punish when somebody doesn't vote.

From the ones i named here i know that at least Thailand and Belgium do prosecute if somebody doesn't vote.

Again, I just don't buy it.

I need hard evidence, not a discususion board post.

Tim

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:54:51 AM

kajirakia

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I will look up if i can find some reliable information on it somewhere online.
I do not have the time to do it now but i will get back to you it later today.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 11:58:03 AM

kajirakia

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And normally no jail time would be involved in prosecuting only a money fine unless there are repeated and serious (provocative) transgressions.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:04:08 PM

KMsAngel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.

Name them.

Australia. I'm an australian. If i don't vote, in local state or federal elections, i'm fined. i believe it's about $50.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:04:29 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I need hard evidence, not a discususion board post.

Tim

Mandatory voting countries

edited length

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 2/16/2008 12:06:08 PM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:09:23 PM

Musicmystery

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Interesting. Thanks bita!

It's a good link--this point is worth noting:

"In many countries it is required to vote only if you are a registered voter, but it is not compulsory to register. People might then have incentives not to register. In many cases, like Australia, an acceptable excuse for absence on Election Day will avoid sanctions."

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/16/2008 12:14:54 PM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:16:34 PM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KMsAngel
Australia. I'm an australian. If i don't vote, in local state or federal elections, i'm fined. i believe it's about $50.

angel,What if there is absolutely no one you want to vote for? There have been a couple of occasions where I did'nt vote locally because I felt none represented what I felt.Is there any way around that? This is a totally new concept for me & I am glad I saw it scroll by.

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