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RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:31:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.
Do you feel that in such a case again the Master has no business whom his slave votes for?

Well look, as a Gorean Master anything his slave does requires his permission, and it would be in her interest for it to please him. But he is also a Citizen of a sovereign State (as is she as well). I am not a proponent of always obeying the law, but voting is a very serious matter. If the legal system of the sovereighty to which he has pledged his allegiance mandates a "one man one vote" principle in its elections, then I feel he is bound by his word of honor as a Citizen to refrain from denying or directing his slave's participation in the process.

In other words, yes.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/16/2008 12:36:51 PM >

(in reply to kajirakia)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:35:55 PM

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At least if he wants to claim a Home Stone.

Tim

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:36:41 PM

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Well i'm a Belgian citizen and i know for a fact that here voting is compulsive.
I even now of people who have been sentences jail time for not voting although they didn't actually have to serve it but where put on probation immediately.
In Belgium the is no voting registration ever, for anybody.

But then again, i can say anything i like here so that doesn't mean anything.
I'll try to find English proof of it tonight.
In French or Dutch i could find it quite easily but in English is proving to be more difficult to find a serious source.

(in reply to camille65)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:39:00 PM

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See, this is just bizarre.

Why wouldn't they vote?

(in reply to kajirakia)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 12:52:40 PM

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quote:

At least if he wants to claim a Home Stone.

Tim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.
Do you feel that in such a case again the Master has no business whom his slave votes for?

Well look, as a Gorean Master anything his slave does requires his permission, and it would be in her interest for it to please him. But he is also a Citizen of a sovereign State (as is she as well). I am not a proponent of always obeying the law, but voting is a very serious matter. If the legal system of the sovereighty to which he has pledged his allegiance mandates a "one man one vote" principle in its elections, then I feel he is bound by his word of honor as a Citizen to refrain from denying or directing his slave's participation in the process.

In other words, yes.

K.

That makes sence...

quote:

See, this is just bizarre.

Why wouldn't they vote?

Well in the cases i know of not voting by not going has most of the times been either active protests again the recruitment to vote or deathbeets who just don't do anything they are supposed to do.

Belgian has a system where if you are not able to go and vote you are able to legally give over your vote to an other person of choice.
This is only possible to do with a very good reason, but this enforces the fact that everybody MUST vote even when not physically able to.

In the days when voting happened by filling out paper forms it was easy to show up but not vote because you could just leave your voting bill empty.
In such cases the vote automatically gets transferred to the majority.

When computerisation happen it was the first elections not possible to do this.
People protested this so heavy that now you are able to fill in a vote that is called blank but then again your vote gets transferred to the majority.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 1:00:13 PM

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quote:

you are able to legally give over your vote to an other person of choice. This is only possible to do with a very good reason, but this enforces the fact that everybody MUST vote even when not physically able to.

No, this is a recipe for selling votes.

(in reply to kajirakia)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 1:21:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

you are able to legally give over your vote to an other person of choice. This is only possible to do with a very good reason, but this enforces the fact that everybody MUST vote even when not physically able to.

No, this is a recipe for selling votes.

I personally know of no case where somebody has ever been procicuted for selling votes.

First of all is it rather difficult to proof that you have a caused reason for not being able to vote yourself.
Secondly a person can only get the right to vote from one other person per ellection and has to proof relationship to that person (not necessarily family relationship though). In other words you must proof that you know them in some way seriously enough to trust them with your vote.
So even if you would organise to buy up votes you would have a hard time to gather much extra votes.

Further it is possible to claim that you know no person to whom you would trust your vote enough to transfer it too.
In that case you do not vote at all in any way without prosecution.

< Message edited by kajirakia -- 2/16/2008 1:22:23 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 1:45:56 PM

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The point of the thread is this, and here's where it all comes back to roost--------

telling (or forcing) people/slaves to vote is no guarantee of results.

Better to just steal the election----and lots of precedents there.

(in reply to kajirakia)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 4:43:20 PM

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~FR~

I see no reason for any ethical quandry here - those who can & will influence the votes of others already do so. The Gorean man wielding such influence as he can or will seems no different than those campaigning (consider the very meaning of that term!) for votes, be that for themself or for their chosen candidate.

After all, it's a matter of merit: those who can (& wish to) lead/influence/master/compell/inspire should do so, those who can't should do as told by their leader.

I fail to see how this clashes with Gorean ethics.

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Voting, question - 2/16/2008 4:53:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Not exactly reliable sources.

So what--if they don't vote, they go to jail?

I'd need to see the proof.

Tim

Well, i searched the net and i found no English site with evidence that people are prosecuted for not voting in Belgium.
I did find a couple dozen sites stating that Belgium and a couple of other countries actively prosecute people for not voting.
But no actual record of that happening in recent years in English.

The only recent records i did find where all in Dutch in a number of Flemish newspapers.
They stated the number of people who didn't vote in the most recent elections and how many of those would be/where being prosecuted as well as the sentencing statistics.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jul/04/voterapathy.uk

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/article.php?id=46

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.aspx?artikelId=GB5LE3SS&word=stemplicht+boete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The point of the thread is this, and here's where it all comes back to roost--------

telling (or forcing) people/slaves to vote is no guarantee of results.

Better to just steal the election----and lots of precedents there.

I agree with that last statement no matter how much i regret it being true.

And Belgium is again a fine example of it...

We have a multiple party system where, after the elections, a number of parties ban together (usually 2 or 3) to get a majority and form the gouvernement.
There is however 1 part who has theoretically won, i belief, the last 12 elections by getting the most votes (in the most recent election almost 25%) but who has never had any power in the government because all other parties refuse to work with them.
So in spite of them 'winning' the election they can not govern because they can never reach a majority of votes.

So much for stealing elections...

< Message edited by kajirakia -- 2/16/2008 5:03:08 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Voting, question - 2/17/2008 7:15:41 AM

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Tal Kirata,

Norman elluded to the invisible chains that bind, but that really is a whole topic unto itself.

Is not politicians valued by the more people they can persuade to believe in them? If we look at it from Nietzsche's view of master and slave morality,I see nothing unethical about it, especially since ethics are a personal thing. I believe it is an owner's personal choice as to whether they will use their assets or not.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Tal Orion,

By that logic, we are all slaves to some degree. So where does that get us? Answer the question directly: Why do you think a man's opinion should be valued according to how many slaves he owns?

IWYW,

Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Both have consent of transfer of some, or all powers, depending upon situation....

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Voting, question - 2/17/2008 7:34:46 AM

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Tal Kirata,

On State levels it is one man one vote but not on the national level. Only the votes of 538 individuals count:

" The United States Electoral College is a term used to describe the 538 Presidential Electors who meet every four years to cast the electoral votes for President and Vice President of the United States. The Presidential Electors of each state are elected by a vote of the people of that state on the day traditionally called Election Day. Presidential Electors meet in their respective state capitol buildings (or in the District of Columbia) on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December (per 3 U.S.C. § 7), never as a national body. At the 51 separate meetings, held on the same day, the electors cast the electoral votes. As such, the collective concept of the 51 groups is the technical definition of the college, despite never convening together. The electoral college system, like the national convention, is an indirect element in the process of electing the president. The Constitution does not require the electors to vote as pledged, but many states do require their electors to vote as pledged.[1] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College

Even in one man one vote, many people may pledge their support one way, if they are part of a voting block, but once the vote they may vote differently. I am sure you are aware of the information above, and I mainly provide it for those that are unaware of the Electoral College.

If you personally feel that you should not interfere with the one man one vote, I can understand that but to persuade in any fashion, those of your house to vote a certain way does not appear to be unethical, and is fact inherant in the system.

Live well,
Orion

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

There are however, many countries when voting is mandatory for all adult citizens.
Do you feel that in such a case again the Master has no business whom his slave votes for?

Well look, as a Gorean Master anything his slave does requires his permission, and it would be in her interest for it to please him. But he is also a Citizen of a sovereign State (as is she as well). I am not a proponent of always obeying the law, but voting is a very serious matter. If the legal system of the sovereighty to which he has pledged his allegiance mandates a "one man one vote" principle in its elections, then I feel he is bound by his word of honor as a Citizen to refrain from denying or directing his slave's participation in the process.

In other words, yes.

K.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Voting, question - 2/17/2008 7:36:55 AM

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Tal Kim,

You put it much better than I have.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

~FR~

I see no reason for any ethical quandry here - those who can & will influence the votes of others already do so. The Gorean man wielding such influence as he can or will seems no different than those campaigning (consider the very meaning of that term!) for votes, be that for themself or for their chosen candidate.

After all, it's a matter of merit: those who can (& wish to) lead/influence/master/compell/inspire should do so, those who can't should do as told by their leader.

I fail to see how this clashes with Gorean ethics.

~Kimveri

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Kimveri)

RE: Voting, question - 2/17/2008 8:05:05 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kajirakia

So much for stealing elections...

Which is what I mentioned in a thread elsewhere on the board...

The point of a representative government is to find compromises the population can live with.

Here's a theoretical model for a parliamentary system... Use 10 seats of core government that forward motions, elected by 100 seats of parliament that vote on the motions. During public elections, start off with a qualifying round where 1000 virtual seats are elected on a party basis, such that any party representing at least 1 in 1000 citizens will be in the running. Then have an elimination vote, again on a party basis, such that the 100 real seats of parliament are given to the least unpopular parties still in the running (or you can calculate based on both the popularity and the unpopularity, though I think it's actually more relevant for people to be allowed to say who they don't want running the country). As a consequence, controversy is limited and stability enhanced, and the wasted vote problem will be reduced.

I had some commentary on it that I can copy over if anyone cares to hear it.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to kajirakia)

RE: Voting, question - 2/17/2008 5:57:06 PM

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Joined: 1/9/2004
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Tal Zarius....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zarius

A question for the Goreans. If you are a BDSM’er please preface your response acknowledging you are a BDSM’er. This is applies to M/s relationships, not D/s.

Do we as Gorean free have the right to tell our slave(s) or Free Companions how to vote. As a Gorean free, would you, or have you told your slave how to vote. If so why? As a slave have you been told how to vote? Did you obey, and why.

Yes to all of the above.

However, if you go into a voting booth to make certain they do it, you are breaking the law. Absentee ballots will ensure your choice is followed. Otherwise you just have to trust the slave/FC.

I will note that you can tell anyone how to vote. Whether or not they do it is another matter.

Be well.....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is community.

(in reply to Zarius)

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