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"Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 12:35:29 AM

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I was talking to someone about how She has a rather dark fantasy of indebting a submissive to Her...She wants to pay for things (possibly living expenses, a vehical, etc) So that it is no longer really a choice to submit, the sub is then forced to serve and to please, without any real force. Its about spinning a web of dependency. I know a lot of people will have the same knee jerk reaction I did, but its a fantasy, and those can be dark...So for the Dom/mes here, is it a fantasy for You? If yes why? And yes there are risks, what are those risks in Your minds?

RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 1:45:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaraseeks

I was talking to someone about how She has a rather dark fantasy of indebting a submissive to Her...She wants to pay for things (possibly living expenses, a vehical, etc) So that it is no longer really a choice to submit, the sub is then forced to serve and to please, without any real force. Its about spinning a web of dependency. I know a lot of people will have the same knee jerk reaction I did, but its a fantasy, and those can be dark...So for the Dom/mes here, is it a fantasy for You? If yes why? And yes there are risks, what are those risks in Your minds?

It is not a fantasy to me. If I have a submissive who is dependent upon me for his every need, and he feels indebted to me for it and only that, I don't want him. If he is dependent upon me for his happiness and his well being. For my choices in his life, my decisions regarding his future, for my love of him, for making him a better person than he was when I met him, then yes, I will have him.
I don't want anyone who feels like they have to be with me, out of some debt.

I want a submissive who gets up in the morning and can't wait to serve me, because I am the most important part of his life.

MoGa

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 2:01:20 AM

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Same here. No, it really doesn't do a thing for Me. I want My sub to serve Me because he wants to, not because other influences make him feel that he is forced to.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 8:09:43 AM

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This fantasy is lived out on a daily basis by countless men with annual incomes over 100k a year and wives and mistresses half their age. I just don't think everyone in those arrangements is ready to openly admit that the relationship is grounded in an exchange of money for sex and service.

*shrug* My fantasies don't run along these lines, but I will admit that I like the idea of buying and paying for a man a hell of a lot better than I like the idea of being bought and paid for myself!

Money is definitely a locus of power. Given a choice, I will always choose to have more power than my partner in a relationship. That's the definition of dominance.

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 2/9/2008 8:10:27 AM >

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 8:18:53 AM

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I've spoken to a few women who at least said they were looking to be a 24/7 totally dependent slave. I've seen shitty vanilla relationships where the woman felt she couldn't leave because of economic problems. I told these women that they needed savings or an outside job, so they could economically leave whenever they chose, and were staying in service because they wanted to. Either they were not satisfied with my response ("too nice") or I was not satisfied with theirs (too chatroomy). I've never bothered to meet one in person.

Bottom line: I don't consider that consensual BDSM. Maybe at the moment you choose, sure... but what about down the road when things get rocky? Both parties have to be able to continue consenting -- and they should be able to choose without some huge sword hanging over their heads.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 10:41:47 AM

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To that extreme, it's not healthy. And what pleasure is there in knowing that someone is co-dependent and will not survive without you? At the same time, I have an admitted erotic fascination with the idea of buying men - whether it be paying for their services (ie escort) or having a one sided relationship where they never pay for anything and I pay for everything. But in those relationships, they are more physical than emotional, and it's not about preventing him from EARNING money or a living, it's not ALLOWING him to pay for anything.

For me, it's more about "not being a kept woman" than having a kept man. I never wanted to rely on any man for my security or happiness. The fact that my husband does not have a job is more related to comfort and functionality (and what we both desire) than me wanting to keep him from being upwardly mobile. His skillset is one that would support him just fine if anything ever happened to me, not to mention he'd get all my assets, so he isn't "kept" in that way.

I also enjoy making money and I enjoy my career. We found that our lives were considerably more stressed and we had a lot less leisure time when he worked full time and we had two incomes. We tried that for a short period of time and it wasn't worth the additional cash - not even close. I also have earning power directly related to my ability to work long hours and do so without the stress of worrying about anything else, and he is remarkably able to handle 'everything else' in my world so my downtime is truely downtime. That is more interdependence than me being the breadwinner and him "relying" on me.

Akasha

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 11:26:39 AM

aidan

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Shakti and Akasha's responses are pretty in line with my thinking.

I'm a writer and a philosopher. The journalism thing is more out of a sense of morality and the need to keep myself alive after college. I have no interest in making a lot of money beyond keeping myself afloat, and given the current economic climate and it's projected direction, that doesn't seem like I'm selling myself short there.

If my partner wants to make more money, be the breadwinner in the relationship, my answer is an emphatic "yes". As long as I still get to persue my loves, I'm fine.

Like Akasha said, there's a big difference between codependance and her (referring to a hypothetical romantic partner) being head of household. I still hope to sell my books and file stories. But if I don't have to be the primary earner, I'd really like to not have to be.

I'm perfectly happy with the idea of being a "kept man."

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 1:40:03 PM

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The situation described in the OP is not at all something that we are interested in. We require our boy to have a job and our second boy will be required to have one as well - at least part time. We don't want someone who stays because he has to, we want him to stay because he wants to.

Now, if the boy can work from home, that would be a huge plus - and if he happens to be independantly wealthy, then that would work too lol. But yeah, we aren't going to support someone 100% no matter how many guys seem to think that's what we should want ("you can keep me in a cage when you aren't using me, Mistress .... I'll never leave the house without your permission, Mistress" yeah ... I don't think so)

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/9/2008 7:15:05 PM

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It can be a good fantasy to be a live in slave but in reality I would miss not working and having my own life. I never thought about being dependent seriously until I briefly chatted with a woman who saw my personal. At one point she said that it didn't matter what I made because if she wanted me she would fly me out to see her and she just took it for granted that she would be earning the money in a relationship.

Now what was extremely hot to me was that a woman could desire me like that.

On the other side, there is a thing such as learned dependency. If you want to turn a person into that I think you owe them some responsibility to take care of them. Otherwise you are just going to screw them up when the relationship ends and most people who would be into that are too unreliable to trust and anything can happen over time, people come and go and relationships end so its very risky for the sub, ie ex homemaker wife who has kids to take care of and few marketable skills and the ex husband leaves her for the prettier younger trophy wife.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/10/2008 6:48:46 AM

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Not my kink. I'd be too concerned for the focus to come off of ME and to turn to money and other things that dilute my control or the sub's attention.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/20/2008 4:28:47 PM

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...this slave supports himself quite well...but has to admit that being a "bought and paid for" piece of property is a very very hot concept!

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/20/2008 6:01:23 PM

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Ah! The dirty little secret of a capitalist society: Money = power. Power to do things, power to manipulate people. ShaktiSama has a point. This sort of thing has been going on for a couple of centuries now, possibly since the signing of the emancipation proclimation.

It's a great fantasy, but somehow I think the reality and the responsibility incurred would probably end up erroding the relationship.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/20/2008 6:14:38 PM

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i can be bought with limo service for life, and $100,000 to live on.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/20/2008 6:23:36 PM

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It wouldnt work for me

Lucy

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/20/2008 10:18:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Ah! The dirty little secret of a capitalist society: Money = power. Power to do things, power to manipulate people. ShaktiSama has a point. This sort of thing has been going on for a couple of centuries now, possibly since the signing of the emancipation proclimation.

It's a great fantasy, but somehow I think the reality and the responsibility incurred would probably end up erroding the relationship.

I think this is what bothers me mostly about most relationships, and that even includes the ones outside of bdsm. I know that in too many places, especially US based areas, money is so much of an emphasis on everything, and it bothers the crap out of me. There's this overfascination with capitalistic intentions that it really just irks me that I can't even walk down the street without feeling guilty for not spending money.

I was a live-in a few times, but during one two year relationship, I was required to bring no money into the relationship. And between the two of us, we had no problem with it as she was EXTREMELY successful and preferred things to work that way. BUT the amount of "concern" we received from everyone around us was overwhelming. People didn't like it. People didn't think it was "right". People who had NOTHING to do with us felt the need to keep talking about how it just wasn't right. People who had advocated exactly the lifestyle we were living took every opportunity to criticize how we weren't living a lifestyle that's part of the "normal" economic lifestyle that exists around us. Let's just say that I discovered that even in a community where people argue that we must stick together because outside forces want to do us harm aren't really all that friendly when something within the community doesn't fall into individual norms and expectations.

I've figured for the future that if I ever find a woman who doesn't care one iota about the concept of money, I'll probably have found someone who might be my soulmate. Granted, I'm never going to be in a situation where I won't be able to take care of myself or myself and a family, but to have to focus on money 24/7 just drives me bonkers.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/21/2008 4:40:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaraseeks

I was talking to someone about how She has a rather dark fantasy of indebting a submissive to Her...She wants to pay for things (possibly living expenses, a vehical, etc) So that it is no longer really a choice to submit, the sub is then forced to serve and to please, without any real force. Its about spinning a web of dependency. I know a lot of people will have the same knee jerk reaction I did, but its a fantasy, and those can be dark...So for the Dom/mes here, is it a fantasy for You? If yes why? And yes there are risks, what are those risks in Your minds?

For me personally, that fantasy is a complete turn off. The very beauty of a D/s focused relationship is my subs choose to serve me, and are devoted to me, because they continually choose to, out of their own free will. Because of their love and devotion, which they express through their submission.

I theoretically believe that financial dependency, and a more emotionally driven (love/affection?) motive can co-exist, but I would be continually concerned as to the subs true motives. I would hate to be wanted, just because of the financial lifestyle I provide.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/21/2008 4:53:27 AM

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In vanilla life I have had women pay for everything. If I had a live in submissive she would have to have a job.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/21/2008 5:49:29 AM

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See, I'm a total freak.

When I see "bought and paid for" I think of historical and institutional slavery.

When I think of that I think of chattel slavery.

As far as I know chattel slaves while in theory dependent on the owner also provide the bulk of the owner's income through their labor.

The result in my mind is a slave who does indeed work and bring in the income, indeed the vast majority of the income, but the owner has the authority to decide how it is used.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/21/2008 9:18:39 AM

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When I was a kid we had an in-ground swimming pool and it had a dome so we could also swim in the middle of Ohio's winter. I had a lot of friends. The problem came when we moved to a new house without a pool, I realized I didn't have as many friends as I thought.

This type of relationship would always have me wondering if the slave was really my friend or only in it for what I could provide.

I do believe money equals power, therefore, in my relationship my submissive (who I am married to) has no control over the finances in our household. At the moment, he is the only one working....so he is providing for us. Once a year we speak about our financial goals, needs and wants, but after that I make all the decisions. For example, he wishes to procure a new bike for himself this year...so I will make financial provisions to do so.

He gets a weekly allowance for gas, lunches and personal spending of $100.00 and if he wishes to purchase anything over and above that, he needs my permission. While he has his own retirement savings and such he has no access to much of our financial life. However, legally we have put in place financial protections for both of ourselves.

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RE: "Bought and Paid for" Whats the appeal? - 2/21/2008 8:52:52 PM

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This post is an interesting twist on the previous "Male wives" post.

I can understand the appeal of this sort of slavery, but I think any slave who consented to it would be in it for far more than the money, so it seems somewhat impossible in practice. The only way to make sure it was ONLY about the money is to agree to the slavery without ever meeting the dominant partner or even really talking much.

That said, I do have a fantasy that one day I will be able to support a boy of my own (or girl, though girls seem much less inclined to that sort of dependence in my experience). It's not because I find that kind of dependence in any way hot, but because I have always wanted someone to take care of me and my home. I don't want that person to have to worry about anything but our life together. I am a very capable person, but domestic things make me feel like a total idiot.

I have a lot of friends who are musicians, artists, writers, performers, and other things that do not make much money but are nevertheless very beautiful and valued. D/s issues aside, I have always fantasized about being a gajillionare, buying a big house, and inviting all my artistic friends to move in and pursue their art without worrying about the expenses of daily living. Even if I were to become wildly successful in my career I'd never have those kind of resources, but one day I can still be a patron to at least one special person. How cool would it be to have a poet on "retainer?" Or a classical pianist? Or a dancer? I think that would be the very definition of awesome.

"I'm in the mood for some Beethoven; make it happen!" or "I'm sleepy, tell me an original bedtime story." or "Dance for my lady friends and I." or "Rhyme something with orange or I'll beat the ever loving shit out of you!"

Okay, maybe not that last one. Then again, might be fun to torture a poet that way. "You have ten minutes to write ten lines of rhymed iambic pentameter. Ready, set, GO!"

Anyway, I'll stop boring you all with my personal fantasies and get to the point. I would not be pleased having anyone indebted to me for money only, but nothing would please me more than the be the patron of someone incredibly talented and see them achieve their dreams while also making their talents available for my pleasure.

(in reply to Zaraseeks)

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