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RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 12:10:05 AM

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It seems to me that most people consider a slave to be more valuable than a submissive. Perhaps this is just the association with being "owned." Surely another human being is the most valuable possession possibly.

To me, a D/s relationship is more like ballroom dancing. By maintaining my freedom, I am free to take risks that I believe will lead to delight and surprise for my dominant. If I became a slave, I wouldn't take those risks, but merely perform the way my Master expected. I recognize that some crave this ultimate control, but I believe that I thrive with the freedom to choose my submission. I think the continual gift of submission is just as beautiful as the one-time ultimate gift of slavery.

(in reply to camigirl)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 6:57:59 AM

arrow

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Perhaps not so brave, Emerald, just ignorant and learning still!! lol

What an amazing wealth of responses from so many!! Thank you all - There did seem to be a common thread through many of the responses. Most so very thoughtful and elegant.

What i'm seeing, i think, is a underlining of the bond between Master and slave - the trust, responsibility and understanding which seem to be common and crucial factors. A permanancy that takes time, time, time....
Again, as many of you pointed out, each situation and need is different. Not less or more, not better than or worse....
Thank you again everyone - i will continue reading your thoughts.
Best to you all,
arrow

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 12:22:10 PM

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I have recently been wondering about my own 'label' and this topic of conversation has interested me greatly.

I started off assuming that I was Master's slave, however, 10 years of a vanilla realationship are hard to shrug off. It is difficult in our household as we have two young kids and both hold down responsible jobs, it is difficult for me to switch that off.

I have been considering that I am in fact more of a submissive than slave, I am not collared but have a wedding band that I consider to be a complete commitment to Him, the vanilla version of a collar (?). I have reached this conclusion by myself, but find the comments on this thread reinforcing my thoughts.

I will keep working on this and see where my thoughts (and His) take me.

(in reply to arrow)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 12:40:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iamMasters

I started off assuming that I was Master's slave, however, 10 years of a vanilla realationship are hard to shrug off. It is difficult in our household as we have two young kids and both hold down responsible jobs, it is difficult for me to switch that off.

I don't think having an outside job or responsibilities negates the definition of being a slave. Of course if you read how its used in my household, having more responsibilities, and having the ability to express your opinions because you know you need to in order to take care of the owner and the owner's stuff, goes along with being a slave. Most of the 24/7 slaves I've met in real life are very strong people with a lot of responsibilties in their lives.

You don't turn off being a slave, you just are one and that entails a lot of different traits and a wide range of activities and responsiblities.

Of course, submissives can and do take excellent care of their dominants. I have met some of them who if they were in my household would be called a slave really. But there's my view of the world that I get to impose on my household and then there is the individual's beliefs and definitions. Not in a relationship with those other people so not my decision or right to label them.

Ultimately it has to be up to you and your partner what words you use to define your roles and your personalities.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 9/17/2005 12:41:14 PM >

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to iamMasters)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 1:17:01 PM

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It has to be all about you want. In my mind, being a slave means that you don't have an expectation of free thought on the part of your "property" (for lack of a better word). I think that you would have to completely think and decide for that person at all times. All that you want them to do is act, when you tell them to. A submissive, however, I would view as acting within your set guidelines, but free to act as they wish, as long as those guidelines and rules are followed.

For example, if you told your slave to get the housework done by 5 PM, then as a Master, you would give your slave a carefully mapped out plan to complete your desired tasks, where they do not think, there merely respond to your instruction.

On the flip side, a "submissive", you would give the same task, and they would figure out how to complete the same task on their own. As a Dominant, that would be just fine.

In short, I think that being a Master involved a much higher level of micromanagement than just being a Dominant. There is room for all, but matching a Dominant with a slave, or a Master with a sub more than likely will lead to a lot of frustration on both parts.

< Message edited by anopheles -- 9/17/2005 1:18:12 PM >

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RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 8:54:12 PM

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Some interesting thoughts shared here.

I've tried explaining the difference I see between submissive and slave, but it never seems to come out quite right. All I know for sure is that I know a slave heart when I meet one.

I know submissives who call themselves slaves and they are no more slave than I am.

I know slaves who call themselves submissive and will argue till they are blue in the face that they are not slaves. And yet they are.

If there is one defining trait that I can put my finger on that seperates the submissive from the slave it is the depth of their surrender. The slave surrenders their power and will more completely to their owner than the submissive. The submissive holds something of themselves back from their partner, regardless of what they say. This is neither good, nor bad, not right or wrong, better or worse. It simply is.

For some submissives, with trust, confidence and love, that surrender will come and they will find themselves being slave. And for some slaves, that surrender will gradually be withdrawn, they'll find themselves holding back, and they will cease to be slaves.

As always, use what works for you, discard the rest.

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to anopheles)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 9:09:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anopheles

It has to be all about you want. In my mind, being a slave means that you don't have an expectation of free thought on the part of your "property" (for lack of a better word). I think that you would have to completely think and decide for that person at all times. All that you want them to do is act, when you tell them to. A submissive, however, I would view as acting within your set guidelines, but free to act as they wish, as long as those guidelines and rules are followed.

For example, if you told your slave to get the housework done by 5 PM, then as a Master, you would give your slave a carefully mapped out plan to complete your desired tasks, where they do not think, there merely respond to your instruction.

On the flip side, a "submissive", you would give the same task, and they would figure out how to complete the same task on their own. As a Dominant, that would be just fine.

In short, I think that being a Master involved a much higher level of micromanagement than just being a Dominant. There is room for all, but matching a Dominant with a slave, or a Master with a sub more than likely will lead to a lot of frustration on both parts.

Wow, this sounds a lot to me like the so called "master" is really the "slave" having to do all this micromanaging.

YUCK.

What's the point of owning someone if they don't make your life easier but create more work for you to do?

Definitely not what I'm looking for when I say I'm looking for a slave.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to anopheles)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 9:24:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anopheles

It has to be all about you want. In my mind, being a slave means that you don't have an expectation of free thought on the part of your "property" (for lack of a better word). I think that you would have to completely think and decide for that person at all times. All that you want them to do is act, when you tell them to. A submissive, however, I would view as acting within your set guidelines, but free to act as they wish, as long as those guidelines and rules are followed....

Hate differ with you anopheles, but a good slave had better be capable of independent thought and action. I sure as hell don't micromange mine and don't want to. I want "X" done, and I'm quite willing to help or explain or clarify if my slave has any problems doing "X". But she is quite intelligent, capable, strong, and pretty dadgum spiffy and can work it out on her own.

I do NOT want to be bothered with deciding this weeks menu, shopping to get all the stuff I want, wondering what detergent to buy, or what color underpants she needs to wear. (Well, okay, if we are going someplace where I'll play with her and she will be stripping I might pick out the undies). If I wanted to work that hard at telling her how to do what I told her to do, I'd do it my own self.

Why on Earth would I want to expend the time, energy and effort to micromanage her? Micromanaging her tells her I dont' have confidence in her. It tells her I don't trust her to get the job done on her own. It tells her I think she isn't very bright. And it is freaking work I don't want to do.

I've been a manager and supervisor, and believe me, the one's who get praised and promoted are the ones who require the LEAST effort on my part to get the job done. Why would I want my slave to require more effort to manage on my part than a good employee?

No, what seperates submissive from slave is how much of her self and her personal power and will that she is willing to surrender to my control. No more, no less. When I make a decision or do something that she finds distasteful, distressing, or disagreeable, the slave surrenders her will to my decision. The submissive may or may not.

*tossing another $.02 in the pot...*

(in reply to anopheles)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/17/2005 9:48:44 PM

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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
What's the point of owning someone if they don't make your life easier but create more work for you to do?

Definitely not what I'm looking for when I say I'm looking for a slave.

"God is dead.... she died of overwork."

[Hugs TammyJo]

How about a few paragraphs on actual historical slaves and how they managed their own lives and even fought wars without masters standing over them.

[wink] I know you wanna.

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 9/17/2005 9:49:29 PM >

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(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/18/2005 8:56:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
What's the point of owning someone if they don't make your life easier but create more work for you to do?

Definitely not what I'm looking for when I say I'm looking for a slave.

"God is dead.... she died of overwork."

[Hugs TammyJo]

How about a few paragraphs on actual historical slaves and how they managed their own lives and even fought wars without masters standing over them.

[wink] I know you wanna.

*HUG John*

I would but I've learned that most folks have this idea of what being a slave is that is so far from any historical reality that they get annoyed if I start teaching. The next time I do a workshop on how the different types of slaves in wealthy Roman household could be good models for modern lives, I'll let folks know.

Let's be honest, I trained Fox to work along these historical Roman models myself.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to JohnWarren)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 9/18/2005 9:26:09 AM

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No flame here...just very appropriately stated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper

I may and probably will get "flamed" for this :-)
A "Dom" demands control but often does not want the responsibility of it nor its actions.
A person just by their appearance and demenior can be a "Dom".
A "Dom" is a user and a taker.
They have walls and are often more concerned with how they present themselves to others.
A "Dom" can also be a "Master" wannabe.
They will often have no sence of what it is to be a "Master" in a 24/7 relationship.

A "Master" is one who has earned the gift of a persons submission as a slave.
You cannot be a "Master" without having a "slave".
There are many kinds of collars and to a Master none of them are or can be "velcro".
A "Master" has no safeword for their slave as their submission to them as Master is so complete there is no need for such a thing.

A Dom may have a submissive or a slave but will/could also cheat on them or lie to them or keep things from them. A Master will not and cannot do that as their slave has such a bond to them that there is no need at all to keep such petty things from them.
Total communication and commitment way WAY beyond a vanilla "marrage" is the relationship between a Master and their slave.

There are many many "wannabes" on both sides of the isle. There are many "Doms" and "submissives". There are few "Masters" and even fewer true "slaves".

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....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/2/2005 2:07:59 PM

wantinaSireorSir

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I think in some way a slave and a sub are the same and I have been told I was wrong.

Someone once told me a slave has no say where a submissive has a say. I like being a slave and a sub at timese. If i am wrong please tell me and please help me if i am wrong

wantinaSireorSir

(in reply to camigirl)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/2/2005 3:54:22 PM

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me?

i am a slave sometimes, a toy others, a pet sometimes, and a servant others. always a sub, though.

Shortly after i started here in CM, my best friend at the time was on the phone with me, and caught me referring to myself as His slave a couple of times, and asked me "since when are you a slave?"

i was kind of caught by suprise by the question, though my answer was pretty clear to me:

"Since He told me, 'I OWN you!'"

Anyway, i agree with most of the posts here... The roles are defined by the individuals. If you use one to categorize yourself in your profile, don't worry. you aren't obligated to sit only in that section of the cafeteria for the rest of your stay.

_____________________________

Sometimes, He calls me "subbie." Sometimes, i call me "subbie." And if someone wants to call me a BBW, its flattering. Just don't call me false.

"Please do not show me your ass and expect me to read your mind." -Opencollar

(in reply to arrow)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/2/2005 4:50:29 PM

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EvilGeoff, you couldn't have stated it any better.
Thank you!

Sincerely,

merry

(in reply to sanita)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/6/2005 8:37:32 AM

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Master is called Master Hawk, because he wons me, and because he earned that title from his peers.

I am a lsave to him, because i am owned, and have only those limit he has allowed me, not the limits i might have chosen for myself as a submissive. If i dont like how things are going, as a slave, i have the option to beg for release, as a submissive, i could simply say "no way" or "go F$%k yourself".

Its pretty cut and dry for me... M/s is is equal to Owner and property. slave is equivilent to whether one has her own limits, or those her MASTER/Mistress gives her.

-dove

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Master of dove's Haven

"True Power/Control is knowing that You have the ability to use it, but choose not to."

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(in reply to camigirl)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/6/2005 8:49:16 AM

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Basicaly there is not hard and fast rule on this but to me a submissive is somone who submot to somone but are still the other person in a relationship, they have rights a slave is owned, or at least as good as owned as one can get whitin the law, and have now right, they are property, a bottom is more of somone that like to resive, he or she need not be submissive at all, but we dont realy need those labels, if if i am to try here would be mine.

i am a submissive whit some slave tendensies and desirers, i am a bottom, a marchosist and also a sadist.

see one need more than one word.

or one can just go whit hi i am the cookie monster.

(in reply to hawk58)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/6/2005 10:42:41 AM

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This is a very subjective subject, but my ideas are very similar to EmeraldSlave2. To me that is what I think of when I think about a sub/slave or dom/master

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RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/6/2005 12:25:50 PM

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I didn’t really understand the concept of slave when I first decided to explore this lifestyle. To me it meant I would have to give up who I am as a person and just become his property. That was scary to me and something that I didn’t want and said so from day one.

I have now come to realize that slave doesn’t have to mean what I originally thought and that I don’t have to stop being the person I am to be fully owned and collared by my Dom.

He told me the other night that I will probably end up being more of a slave then many people we see that call themselves slaves. I hope so, because pleasing him is my goal in life.

(in reply to firefighteremt)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/6/2005 2:03:27 PM

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The difference is-what you want it to be.

I've seen guys that were hopelessly and happily hen pecked in ways you would simply not believe-and called thier women slaves.

And others who had girls that would do damned near anything thier man asked of them,without question. Who didn't even give them a title.

So who am I to say what the hell they are in reality?

It's THIER reality that matters-not my perception of it.

(in reply to camigirl)

RE: slave vs. submissive - 10/6/2005 4:00:22 PM

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From a different perspective..

To me a sub is a submissine who has limits and safe words and may or may not be in a 24/7 relationship and may or may not liove with his ir her Dominant.

For me.. a slave is property, no safe words, no limits and has only the rights I allow her to have. I do not do things to please my property unless it pleases me to. We do not scens but we may indulge in some aspects of BDSM play if it pleases me to. said slave is valuable property and as such i will maintain her value mby not wantonly mistreating her and will increase her value to me by training her and/or having her trained (dance etc)...

I repeat this my defination which works for me but probably for very few others.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 10/6/2005 4:01:11 PM >

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to JustaTop)

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