Should he die for this?

Should he die for this? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

He's over reacting. On balance, this is not such a terrible crime

20% (5)

nobody will believe he's nothing but pure scum for doing it

8% (2)

He deserves what he gets, no matter how it effects him and his family

25% (6)

He should be publicly shamed as well as prosecuted for his crimes

20% (5)

He should get it over with and kill himself if thats how he feels

4% (1)

He should be helped with his problems, not humilliated by his mistakes

20% (5)

Total Votes : 24

(last vote on : 12/1/2005 9:45:15 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

TheUKMaster -> Should he die for this? (7/13/2004 12:45:35 PM)
I have a friend who is being prosecuted for taking pics up womens skirts. He didn't touch any of them nor did he want to. He is struggling to understand the motivation for taking them within himself but believes it was one of risk rather than sexual issues, and feels terrible about what he did. I've tried to tell him it's not so bad, that photos like that actually sell more newspapers and it's not like he even wanted to rape or assult any of them, and he's blown it all out of perspective. As far as he's concerned his life is over. He can't face the prospect of the story going public and is talking about killing himself. I know him well enough to take the threat seriously but I can't say anything to talk him out of it. He feels if the story is published, it's the same as putting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger. So that's what he's planning to do if it happens. This subject has already been misunderstood so I just want to reiterate - This is an issue of Publicity, or privacy if you prefer. The invasion of the press and the effect it has on ordinary people. Not one of guilt or punishment. That's another discussion. If you, like me believe that this is not such a big crime and he's over reacting, please let me know. If you'd like to leave a message of encouragement or advice I'll be sure to pass them on. He's a nice guy and one who I believe has suffered too much already. As have his friends and family. Thanks for reading. Have a Nice day! ;o)

Sinergy -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/13/2004 4:18:55 PM)
Not sure why you reposted this, but... ---------------- Hello, The issue is not what he did, and attempting to paint what he did to be acceptable in the lifestyle misses the point, somewhat, of the lifestyle. Many here use the terms SAFE, SANE, AND CONSENSUAL to describe what we do. While what he did was safe, sane is questionable, and it definitely was not consensual. Did any of those people whose skirts he took pictures up give him specific consent to do so? The answer is no. Additionally, your friend violated the laws of the place he lives in, and as such he should be held accountable. Is it on the same level of nonconsensual as murder, rape, robbery, or battery? No. Is it doing things to people without their consent? Yes. Is it illegal? Yes. I get a sense that you are not involved in this lifestyle, and you are simply trolling a BDSM web site hoping to find people who support what your friend did. While you may find some, I suspect it wont be many. I dont think your friend should kill himself, but from my perspective, Im not going to engage in behaviors I dont want other people to know about. Nor am I going to violate any laws. Wish your friend my best at his arraignment. As an afterthought, if he has a mental illness which causes him to engage in these behaviors, he should be getting help with it before he ends up in jail. Wait, he already was arrested for it. Luckily, they have plenty of good outpatient and inpatient programs and treatment options for sex offenders, and if he is unable to get himself in, perhaps a court ordered treatment program will work to help him. Sinergy ----------------------- I suspect the crime is not actually a capital crime, so your thread title "Should he die for this" is a bit over-dramatic, in my opinion. If he is suicidal, he should get help. Sinergy

LadyBeckett -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/13/2004 5:22:23 PM)
First of all, to answer the question, of course he should NOT die for this. Sitting on this side of possible humiliation, of course it seems huge and unbearable, recovery seems unimaginable! He did what he did. No, it wasn't correct behavior, lifestyle or otherwise. He violated the privacy of these women without their consent. I am assuming it was without their consent. Or, it was with their consent, and when his "fetish" becomes public, his "vanilla" existence will be destroyed. From a very young age we are cautioned to "think before acting/speaking". We are reminded of that at times just like this. I believe there is probably more to this story. There usually is, but given what is known at this point, I believe your friend is lucky to have concerned/supportive friends, and I believe he needs professional help at this point. Suicidal threats should always be treated seriously. Good luck.

feline -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/13/2004 6:17:34 PM)
Oh please! Are you for real??? Your friend would have continued on his merry way had he not been caught. He did the crime he should do the time. Instead of trying to cop out. Tell him to stop being so over dramatic. I bet he's not stopping to think how the women he violated feel. I completely agree with Sinergy. [image]local://upfiles/17000/623ED53E49B243CCB2DE4128D050614E.gif[/image]

TheUKMaster -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/13/2004 7:17:22 PM)
Ok. First off, thank you LadyBeckett for taking the time to read my message properly and for your useful comments and concern. You are obviously intelligent and understanding of people. It's nice to know a few people like you still exist in this uncaring, unfeeling and unbelieving world. It's always nice to meet someone who think for themselves, among a very large flock of sheep. If I ever decide to go to the bottom, I'd be privileged to worship at your feet! Can I be bothered to reply to anyone who misses the point?... Nah!... Except to say, thank you for attempting to read it... I know it had big words and big sentances, Well done!!! And thanks for your opinions... Couldn't help myself! LOL!! And the same applies to anyone else who doesn't bother to read it properly. Any futher Relevent comments are welcome... maybe I'm being to hard on them, after all they did take the time to reply... Maybe I ought to give a sh*t? Nah!!!!!!! Have a Nice day[;)]

SherriA -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/13/2004 8:45:00 PM)
What your friend did was illegal and (imnsho) morally repugnant. And he got caught. If it was your gf/wife/little sister that he was taking non-con pics of how would you feel? He violated people's privacy in a really underhanded way and apparently he knew what he was doing was wrong. Do I think he deserves to die for it? Nope. But I have no issue at all with it being made public. Being held accountable for your actions isn't deadly. If you really believe that your friend is suicidal then you should be talking to intervention professionals. I don't know if it's a serious threat or a pity play, but if you believe it to be true then the "right" thing to do is to call the experts. The justice system can't be altered every time someone who is emotionally/mentally unstable comes into contact with it. If that was the case no one would ever be held accountable for their actions, and we'd have a chaotic system of justice. The rules are the rules; we know them up front and choose what risks we're prepared to take. It's called personal responsibility. I'm sure that's not what you wanted to hear, but that's how I see it.

feline -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 1:58:38 PM)
Gee you know, this board is filled with differing and diverse opinions. That's what makes it what it is. And if you feel the need to belittle and berate those who don't agree or give you the answer your looking for, that doesn't say very much about you dose it? SherriA brings up a very valid point. If your so worried about your friend, why haven't you contacted intervention professionals? Hhmm Have a nice day! [:)] [image]local://upfiles/17000/53B35FABDDF24A679AEBE5E5C99AE175.gif[/image]

feline -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 2:09:25 PM)
EXCELLANT! My sentiments exactly. Btw good to have you back Sherri [image]local://upfiles/17000/F6AA18085B2F468DB5A8E8F3AB1791BA.gif[/image]

sub4hire -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 2:53:15 PM)
He should be prosecuted for it. Whatever the law is in the UK, it should be carried out. How would you feel if you were violated? For some women it is the same as rape. You are'nt in their heads just like you are'nt in your friends head. Generally people who talk suicide want attention and usually never do anything more than talk. He wants your sympathy. I'd find him a good shrink if you're that worried about him. Do unto others as you'd like to have done unto yourself. Don't look up skirts and break the law if you don't want it out in the open. Those women didn't exactly want their panties shared with the world either.

proudsub -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 3:13:50 PM)
quote: Gee you know, this board is filled with differing and diverse opinions. That's what makes it what it is. And if you feel the need to belittle and berate those who don't agree or give you the answer your looking for, that doesn't say very much about you dose it? I'm with you Feline. I answered him on his "introduction" thread a few days ago but will paste it here. Welcome to the forums. Where i live we just passed a law against this. If you have a law forbidding it then i think he should be prosecuted and held accountable. It was becoming a real problem here. Let me ask how you would feel if he photographed your wife or girlfriend. I was berated for not sticking to his point of his friend receiving public humiliation: UKMaster: "In reply to your question about if it was my wife or girlfriend? I wouldn't even know if he did, just as all the girls he photographed didn't know! ..... Well the first reply was a bit of a surprise! This was the last place I'd expected to see a 'hang em high by the ball's' type blanket condemnation! Especially from people who's lifestyle could be percieved as 'deviant' by so-called 'normal' society. " quote: Can I be bothered to reply to anyone who misses the point?... Nah!... Except to say, thank you for attempting to read it... I know it had big words and big sentances, Well done!!! And thanks for your opinions... Couldn't help myself! LOL!! And the same applies to anyone else who doesn't bother to read it properly. Any futher Relevent comments are welcome... maybe I'm being to hard on them, after all they did take the time to reply... Maybe I ought to give a sh*t? Nah!!!!!!! If you don't want our opinions then please don't ask for them. I don't remember any "big words" that were beyond my feeble ability to understand, and i don't enjoy being laughed at when i simply state my opinion. As for your implying that it's not a problem because the girls didn't know he was doing it--BS is all i can say, it was nonconsensual and a major violation of their privacy and of the law. Of course he shouldn't die for the crime and if his suicide threat is serious i agree with the posters who said his close friends should intervene and do what they can to help him.

Sinergy -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 3:29:09 PM)
Hello, The more I read the tone of voice used in his various replies, the melodramatic attempt to garner sympathy for what seems to be life or death situation, as well as the manner in which he responds, part of me wonders whether this person is actually a minor and the family in question are the parents of the one arrested. I can remember similar things happening to some friends of mine (breaking windows at a local school) when I was 11, and in his mind it was the End Of The World that he had a police record. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 3:35:43 PM)
Silly thing posted twice. Apologies. Sinergy

EStrict -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 3:42:26 PM)
Actually Sir, I read it more as the proverbail friend everyone talks about when they are seeking help because they are too ashamed (rightly or wrongly) that they are the friend. In answer to the questions, the person did something illegal. If it is a minor, get help quickly! If it is not, still get help, but realize that the humiliation is still less for the person who did this than the person they were doing it to when they got caught. Don't expect sympathy for an action that was done of their own free will (though from the way it was discussed, it could be like kleptomania where you do it compulsively). And if it wasn't done that way (they couldn't help themselves), this will be a hard lesson, but perhaps they can make the most of it in the future by talking about how important it is to seek professional help for something that you know is wrong before it gets too out of control? As far as the replies to Proud and Feline, don't take it personally. People who are ashamed of their actions often try to blame the people who point it out,,, and if this isn't actually about UK, it's about someone very close to him.

Sinergy -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 3:50:58 PM)
quote: Actually Sir, I read it more as the proverbail friend everyone talks about when they are seeking help because they are too ashamed (rightly or wrongly) that they are the friend. In answer to the questions, the person did something illegal. If it is a minor, get help quickly! If it is not, still get help, but realize that the humiliation is still less for the person who did this than the person they were doing it to when they got caught. Don't expect sympathy for an action that was done of their own free will (though from the way it was discussed, it could be like kleptomania where you do it compulsively). And if it wasn't done that way (they couldn't help themselves), this will be a hard lesson, but perhaps they can make the most of it in the future by talking about how important it is to seek professional help for something that you know is wrong before it gets too out of control? As far as the replies to Proud and Feline, don't take it personally. People who are ashamed of their actions often try to blame the people who point it out,,, and if this isn't actually about UK, it's about someone very close to him. You may be right, Estrict. I personally think it is tragic all around, but the initial request and the responses didnt add up for me. I disliked the assumption (on the poster's first message) wherein those who engage in BDSM activities would also be more lenient and sympathetic towards somebody who broke the law. If it is genuinely what the poster says it is, then I really do hope the person gets treatment. Sinergy

TheUKMaster -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 5:55:43 PM)
One last time. After the first misunderstandings and subsequent replies to my post, my initial reaction was dissapointment and then suprise. Dissapointment because although I'd tried to explain the real problem with this case was the Publicity, not whether or not my friend should be prosecuted for what he did. That was not the issue here. Obviously my communication skills need improving. I object to the way the British press destroy ordinary peoples lives by demonising them in the press. Often before the've even been convicted! That's what I have a problem with, that's what my friend is worried about. Even He believes he has should be prosecuted in law despite all the problems and losses this has caused him! I'm still not going to reply to comments I consider to be off topic (turned out to be a good place to post it), Iife's too short. After the telling off I've just had over this I'll probably be banned for this one! I have been both amused and surprised at reading some assumptions posted here. Some people certainly have a lot to say. Some people have a greater understanding of the problem and I want to note that I aknowledged that. The latest news is that I went with him today to see his psychiatrist (as I have done before) and his new doctor has diagnosed him suffering 'borderline personality disorder' and that he wasn't fully in control of his compulsion at the time. I'm sure this will dissapoint some. As for him, his first response was to ask the doc if he could help, to which the doc replied "yes". At that point my mate started crying with relief and thanking the doctor. He told me later it felt like a weight off his shoulders to finally have a name for his illness. He wasn't even concerned about the case at that point, he was just so pleased he'd found someone who can help him. We've searched for a long time. I'm not bothering to write all this for sympathy, only to explain that although he has problems (don't we all), he's still a nice guy. I choose my friends carefully and only people who have a good heart. I have very few good friends. "Not surprised" I hear some of you say. To answer a few comments I haven't already answered; Sandy, thanks for your well observed comments. No it's not me, but Yes he is a very good friend and I owe him a great deal. You turned out to be spot on with the compulsion theory. Research has proven that suicides that ask for help often Do kill themselves so if anyone knows anyone talking about suicide my advice would be to take it seriously. Unless you want to loose a friend. Did I expect people of our kind to "be more lenient and sympathetic"? No I did hope that people here would be a bit more understanding towards anyone who is paraded in public as being a deviant. If none of you have been accused of that for your lifestyle choice, you're lucky. Don't forget this wasn't even something he had much control over, not like people making a choice to be different from mainstream society. By now you will realise I can't answer anything simply and my time here is limited, probably non existant after this. Am I a minor? Interesting one that! I do honestly thank you all for your comments. Even the irrelevent ones (in my opinion), all very interesting. Well I'm finished here (probably in more ways than one) Do I care? Hell no! I'm entitled to my opinion as well. I do think you all have to agree on one thing... I have a talent for starting a debate! I hope it continues in my absence. I'm otta here!

Sinergy -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 6:30:22 PM)
Hello, Thank you for that well considered response, UKMaster. I appreciate the public scandal which is latched on in the British press, and would like to point out it is not that much different in the United States. More than this, I am really happy that your friend has actually taken steps to deal with the mental illness which caused him to do what it was that he did. Please wish him success in his future. The wave of consequences for his actions will crash into him for a certain amount of time, but if he is strong when the tide rolls back he will be left standing tall. Regards, Sinergy

iwillserveu -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 7:08:49 PM)
The question is not if he should get whatever the court decides. That is obvious. If he decided to wear a trench coat and flash women on the subway would be comprable. The question is should he be tried in the press. I opted for #1. He's over reacting. If it was his wife/sister/daugther/mother/aunt, etc. is irrelevant. Will they get over it or did he steal their soul? C'mon. He's scum but he should't forever carry the name of "Upskirt Tommy". We dropped scarlet letters long ago. "Six months of community service and put the gun down, Tommy. Next." If it happens is the newspaper that reports it as guility as Jenny Jones when she did the "My gay neighbor has a crush on me" show that lead to a murder?

ModeratorThree -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/14/2004 7:57:07 PM)
As an ex LEO all I can think of is this, he made victims. And there is the possibility some of them were children, or was he asking for identification while commiting this crime? He knew he had a problem, before being caught, he should have consoled you then, and if he did and you gave him the same advice of "it's not so bad", then you contributed and are guilty in some ways as well. He did it, there were and are victims, he should pay for what he did. Hopefully he can be rehabilitated and go on to live a normal life someplace. The suffering of his own family is of no fault but HIS. He should have thought about them before this, and should have asked for help. I have worked in law enforcement for several years, from walking the walls, road dawgin', booking and warrants. I have dealt with most every type of offender(petty larceny to serial killer and a couple of preacher/pedophiles), and have found that offences like this are in fact a sickness and often do progress to more violent or risky crimes. A mental illness of sorts I guess, this is an impulse/power thing as well. You can castrate a child rapist and he will return to society and abuse again, it is not a sexual thing, but a power thing. I have seen it far too many times to care to count. NOT that I am saying your "friend" is a child rapist or abuser, I am just useing this as example. It is NOT sexual, it is impulse and control. As far as the press goes, I have been on both sides of this issue. In law enforcement it can be a great tool, and it can also cause more problems. As a parent, and a woman.. I want to know about the people that live near me. If he was worried about what the neighbors think he should have sought help.. plain as can be possibly said. And since I brought it up, the being a woman part and all... ladies learn to defend yourself! Do not just tell yourself you can take care of business. Be prepared for every situation, and I do mean every. In the society we currently live in crimes against women are staggering. And I DO NOT mean go get yourself a gun, I do not advocate guns to the majority of people. Most times they will be used against YOU. If you can seriously search your own soul and come to absolute, without a doubt knowledge that you can in fact take the life of another .. without hesitation.. then go to an instructor and learn how to carry and use them properly. If you have the slightest doubt and a gun feels kinda funny in your hand... take some self defence classes. I am also going to say that I feel the same way about men carrying guns, IMO, a gun is for two things only, to defend a life, and take a life, nothing more or less. *now steps off that damned soap box Mod3

Sinergy -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/15/2004 12:18:44 AM)
quote: A mental illness of sorts I guess, this is an impulse/power thing as well. You can castrate a child rapist and he will return to society and abuse again, it is not a sexual thing, but a power thing. I have seen it far too many times to care to count. NOT that I am saying your "friend" is a child rapist or abuser, I am just useing this as example. It is NOT sexual, it is impulse and control. I teach women's full contact self defense, Mod3, and I agree 100%. Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control. I will say that the important thing is now that the person has been caught, has taken steps to seek help (as stated by the poster) perhaps their sickness will be taken care of and they can live a life where they dont victimize other people. Sinergy

Estring -> RE: Should he die for this? (7/15/2004 12:42:45 AM)
Actually, after all this, maybe he should die. [:D]

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