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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:40:14 PM

xoxi

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What I posted was my interpretation of the words in the Bible.

If anyone claims to follow the Bible as a spiritual and moral guide, I would presume they would follow what is written IN the Bible. Such as "no man will lie with another man" or however it is worded. The elaboration on that phrase is my own but the rule is still in the book.

Edited to add: as far as 'gaining ground' I'm not trying to convert anyone. I was giving my interpretation of one of the Mosaic Laws in the Bible that would explain why 'homosexuals' exist even if they aren't supposed to stick it in another guy's butt. Our free will gives us both sinful thoughts as well as Godly thoughts (innate charitable drive, etc.) and it is our responsibility to choose the path that aligns with our own moral code.

For Jews and Christians there is a big book of rules that says what we should and shouldn't do. For Buddhists, that book might make a good coaster to rest their beer on.

< Message edited by xoxi -- 3/10/2008 4:43:20 PM >

(in reply to TracyTaken)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:41:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Actually Celeste, my primary inspiration for this thread was Ephesians 5:22-24:

22 Wives, obey your own husbands. In doing this, you obey the Lord. 23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. It is His body (the church) that He saves. 24 As the church is to obey Christ, wives are to obey their own husbands in everything.

None of which negates nor challenges what I wrote. Submission of the wife to ones husband is not the natural order (which is what you wrote and what I am refuting) .. it's the punishment for disobedience to the supposed word of God for eating from the tree of knowledge. If submission by the wife is, in fact, the natural order, then why is it called punishment in your book and why did it come about only as a consequence after an action rather than just be in place from day one which, logically, if it were natural, would make more sense?

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:43:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaraLady

Atheism is a religion,

It most certainly is not. Atheism is a LACK of belief, not belief. There is no core tenet of atheism. There is no book of atheism. The only thing that unifies atheists with other atheists is a lack of belief in a god.

No. Atheism is an opposing belief to the existence of a God or Gods. Atheism says there is absolutely definitively NO God. This is a belief, unproven and unprovable. Since it claims an absolute, just as Christianity claims the alternate absolute, it is very much an issue of faith and belief.

Agnosticism says "Well, I don't know either way", hence it is not a belief since it claims no unprovable absolute.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to KaraLady)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:44:00 PM

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quote:

Just to clarify atheism isn't the LACK of belief in God, but rather the explicit belief that there is NO God.

So, if I lack a belief that Russell's teapot is orbiting the sun, how is that different from having no belief that Russell's teapot is orbiting the sun?

quote:

Agnosticism is both the lack of belief in God and the lack of belief that there is no God.

Is agnosticism the *true* lack of belief (which you don't ascribe to atheists)?

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:44:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

What I posted was my interpretation of the words in the Bible.

If anyone claims to follow the Bible as a spiritual and moral guide, I would presume they would follow what is written IN the Bible. Such as "no man will lie with another man" or however it is worded. The elaboration on that phrase is my own but the rule is still in the book.

People always pick and choose. I quite like the bit about stoning disobedient children to death. And the death penalty for not keeping the sabbath holy.

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:47:32 PM

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That's a semantic quibble. If someone actively believes a deity does not exist, they have a lack of belief in that deity, right?

Also, that still does not make Atheism a religion, which is what SixFootMaster was arguing.

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:47:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

No. Atheism is an opposing belief to the existence of a God or Gods. Atheism says there is absolutely definitively NO God. This is a belief, unproven and unprovable. Since it claims an absolute, just as Christianity claims the alternate absolute, it is very much an issue of faith and belief.

Agnosticism says "Well, I don't know either way", hence it is not a belief since it claims no unprovable absolute.

Six.

Most atheists will tell you in no uncertain terms what it would take to prove the existence of god to them. We're just pretty sure that noone will ever come up with the goods, hence the cockiness.

It's quite nice to have a belief that is backed up by fact. After all, when you make extraordinary claims, the burden of proof lies with you.

And if you don't believe that, I have a bridge over the Atlantic I'd like to sell you.

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to SixFootMaster)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:48:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

quote:

Just to clarify atheism isn't the LACK of belief in God, but rather the explicit belief that there is NO God.

So, if I lack a belief that Russell's teapot is orbiting the sun, how is that different from having no belief that Russell's teapot is orbiting the sun?

quote:

Agnosticism is both the lack of belief in God and the lack of belief that there is no God.

Is agnosticism the *true* lack of belief (which you don't ascribe to atheists)?

Atheism - There is absolutely no teapot orbiting the sun.

Agnosticism - There may be a teapot, but I don't know if there is or not.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to TracyTaken)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:50:56 PM

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The whole "Atheism is a religion" sthick is getting old.

If Atheism is a religion, surely Christians belong two multiple religions, because they are atheists regarding every other god than their own. So they're atheists towards Islam, and Buddishm, and Zorostarianism, etc etc ad infinitum et nauseum.
It's semantic bullshit, and it doesn't hold water. Atheism is a LACK of religion. It's pretty much the definition of the lack of religion.

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to TotalState)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:50:57 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Celeste, I assume you are referring to Genesis 3:16?

quote:

To the woman he said,
     "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
     with pain you will give birth to children.
     Your desire will be for your husband,
     and he will rule over you."

I already made a post apologising for the use of the words 'natural order' - it was quite presumptuous of me as I am not God and therefore am unable to fully understand the natural order. A more appropriate line would be "the Bible says that wives should submit to their husbands" and leave it at that.

But as far as that passage - basically the entire chapter is sort of saying "things are changing now" - whatever may have been applicable in the Garden of Eden is no longer valid. Man has eaten from the fruit and has applied his free will. He is now able to do bad, as well as do good. Therefore God has to implement rules that go beyond "don't eat from that tree" in order to guide Man's new nature. It is a punishment, but a punishment in the sense that they have disobeyed God so now their lives are a bit harder since they are no longer pure. Regardless, it's still a rule that God says to follow.

If you want to follow the God of that book, and continue the covenant with him, it's best to do as he says, y'know?

Also edited to add: the quote from Genesis is a Judaic quote. The quote from Ephesians was in a letter from Paul who was describing the 'new covenant' that Christ brought. Therefore each of those quotes can stand alone without relying on the other for backup. The Genesis quote gives the rule for Jews, the Ephesians quote gives the rule for Christians.

Christianity's relationship with the OT gets tricky at times. Christ disregarded several Mosaic laws during his ministry, and is said to have brought a new covenant. I would imagine a minister or priest could explain this far better than I could, considering there are plenty of parts I still don't understand myself

< Message edited by xoxi -- 3/10/2008 4:57:49 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:52:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

No. Atheism is an opposing belief to the existence of a God or Gods. Atheism says there is absolutely definitively NO God. This is a belief, unproven and unprovable. Since it claims an absolute, just as Christianity claims the alternate absolute, it is very much an issue of faith and belief.

Agnosticism says "Well, I don't know either way", hence it is not a belief since it claims no unprovable absolute.

Six.

Most atheists will tell you in no uncertain terms what it would take to prove the existence of god to them. We're just pretty sure that noone will ever come up with the goods, hence the cockiness.

It's quite nice to have a belief that is backed up by fact. After all, when you make extraordinary claims, the burden of proof lies with you.

And if you don't believe that, I have a bridge over the Atlantic I'd like to sell you.

It's not backed up by fact, merely pseudo-intellectualism disguised as fact. Science cannot prove a negative hypothesis (that there is no God) - all that can be proven is that by observable evidence, God does not exist. This is not a conclusive fact, since there is always the possibility that science simply lacks the ability to detect, observe, measure, and quantify an existent God.

You can say "everything I know, and everything I have observed and experienced tells me God doesn't exist", but this isn't an immuatable fact, it's simply your opinion. Just as I can say "everything I know, have observed, and experienced, tells me definitively that God does exist".

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to TotalState)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:52:47 PM

Posts: 615
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

What I posted was my interpretation of the words in the Bible.

If anyone claims to follow the Bible as a spiritual and moral guide, I would presume they would follow what is written IN the Bible. Such as "no man will lie with another man" or however it is worded. The elaboration on that phrase is my own but the rule is still in the book.

You really need to find it then.

quote:

Edited to add: as far as 'gaining ground' I'm not trying to convert anyone. I was giving my interpretation of one of the Mosaic Laws in the Bible that would explain why 'homosexuals' exist even if they aren't supposed to stick it in another guy's butt.

There are many different ways I could counter that argument, and I'm confident that in this forum, other people will.

What I really want to ask: Do you really believe that God, who controls everything and watches 40,000 children die a day from starvation, and watches mass slaughter around the world, and watches harm after harm that people do to do people - do you really think that same Deity gives a rat's ass where some guy chooses to stick his dick?

quote:

Our free will gives us both sinful thoughts as well as Godly thoughts (innate charitable drive, etc.) and it is our responsibility to choose the path that aligns with our own moral code.

What is God's moral code if he's so very concerned about where every man's dick is at any given moment?

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:53:42 PM

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Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaraLady

Atheism is a religion,

It most certainly is not. Atheism is a LACK of belief, not belief. There is no core tenet of atheism. There is no book of atheism. The only thing that unifies atheists with other atheists is a lack of belief in a god.

No. Atheism is an opposing belief to the existence of a God or Gods. Atheism says there is absolutely definitively NO God. This is a belief, unproven and unprovable. Since it claims an absolute, just as Christianity claims the alternate absolute, it is very much an issue of faith and belief.

Agnosticism says "Well, I don't know either way", hence it is not a belief since it claims no unprovable absolute.

Six.

Well, I don't believe that there is no Santa Claus; I simply have no belief.

"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby." Ellison

(in reply to SixFootMaster)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:55:41 PM

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Joined: 9/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

It's not backed up by fact, merely pseudo-intellectualism disguised as fact. Science cannot prove a negative hypothesis (that there is no God) - all that can be proven is that by observable evidence, God does not exist. This is not a conclusive fact, since there is always the possibility that science simply lacks the ability to detect, observe, measure, and quantify an existent God.

You can say "everything I know, and everything I have observed and experienced tells me God doesn't exist", but this isn't an immuatable fact, it's simply your opinion. Just as I can say "everything I know, have observed, and experienced, tells me definitively that God does exist".

Six.

It's the scientific method. Laypeople can call it pseudo-intellectualism as much as they like, and it won't change a thing.

Observable evidence is all that we have to prove anything with. Otherwise, you'll just get lost in pointless scepticism of your own senses.

Therefore, observable evidence is fact. And yes, facts change, just as science progresses.

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to SixFootMaster)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:57:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

The whole "Atheism is a religion" sthick is getting old.

If Atheism is a religion, surely Christians belong two multiple religions, because they are atheists regarding every other god than their own. So they're atheists towards Islam, and Buddishm, and Zorostarianism, etc etc ad infinitum et nauseum.
It's semantic bullshit, and it doesn't hold water. Atheism is a LACK of religion. It's pretty much the definition of the lack of religion.

Nope. Atheists do like to think of themselves of completely absent of prejudice and intolerant conviction, but it simply isn't true.

Christians cannot be Atheists, since they do definitively believe in a God. Mutually exclusive tenets.

Atheism is a religion based around the definitive absolute that there is no God, Goddess, GSM, or any other form of the sentient divine. That is what atheism is.

Now you can argue red is blue, green is orange all you like, but it doesn't change the literal facts - atheism by its very nature is a religion.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to TotalState)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:57:48 PM

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quote:

Most atheists will tell you in no uncertain terms what it would take to prove the existence of god to them. We're just pretty sure that noone will ever come up with the goods, hence the cockiness.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

(in reply to TotalState)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:59:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

It's not backed up by fact, merely pseudo-intellectualism disguised as fact. Science cannot prove a negative hypothesis (that there is no God) - all that can be proven is that by observable evidence, God does not exist. This is not a conclusive fact, since there is always the possibility that science simply lacks the ability to detect, observe, measure, and quantify an existent God.

You can say "everything I know, and everything I have observed and experienced tells me God doesn't exist", but this isn't an immuatable fact, it's simply your opinion. Just as I can say "everything I know, have observed, and experienced, tells me definitively that God does exist".

Six.

It's the scientific method. Laypeople can call it pseudo-intellectualism as much as they like, and it won't change a thing.

Observable evidence is all that we have to prove anything with. Otherwise, you'll just get lost in pointless scepticism of your own senses.

Therefore, observable evidence is fact. And yes, facts change, just as science progresses.

And so science cannot conclusively disprove the existence of a divine sentient, and by extension, disbelief in a divine sentient is a matter of faith, not fact, no matter how much window dressing you apply.

For the record, many great scientists are also Christians. Science and scientific endeavor are not mutually exclusive to belief in a Christian God, or any other divine sentient.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to TotalState)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:59:48 PM

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Joined: 2/1/2008
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quote:

he whole "Atheism is a religion" sthick is getting old.

If Atheism is a religion, surely Christians belong two multiple religions, because they are atheists regarding every other god than their own. So they're atheists towards Islam, and Buddishm, and Zorostarianism, etc etc ad infinitum et nauseum.
It's semantic bullshit, and it doesn't hold water. Atheism is a LACK of religion. It's pretty much the definition of the lack of religion.

Not so different from Allah vs. the Jewish God vs. the Christian God. Some of us just take it one God further (nod again to Dawkins).

(in reply to TotalState)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:00:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

For the record, many great scientists are also Christians.

Nobody's perfect.

I also hear that Newton sucked at relationships.

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to SixFootMaster)

RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:01:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

quote:

Most atheists will tell you in no uncertain terms what it would take to prove the existence of god to them. We're just pretty sure that noone will ever come up with the goods, hence the cockiness.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

Fascinating, and when you close the door at night, does the world beyond cease to exist because you can't see it? The pleasure of being one of the world's truly enlightened one and being privy to the true secrets of the universe must be absolutely amazing. Your religion disgusts me.

Reduced to absurdity.

Edited to add:

Actually, according to recent quantum revelations, it may very well be that any part of the universe not currently observed (not in the sense of sight) ceases to exist.

< Message edited by SixFootMaster -- 3/10/2008 5:03:14 PM >

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to TracyTaken)

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