The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 1:10:54 PM)


When I flirt with someone, I can be demanding or aggressive, and it's the way I convey or hint at what I'm into, and also get a sense of whether or not a man is the type to enjoy being told what to do.  It may be as simple as giving him my phone number and ordering him to call me, or telling him where to sit when having a conversation, or instead of saying, "Do you want a drink" (or waiting for him to ask me), ordering a drink and handing it to him and saying, "Drink this."  Those are fairly random examples, and it's always dependent upon vibe, situation, and intuition.

This is basically non-negotiated bdsm on some small level -- giving orders and wanting obedience.  No one has established who is the dominant and who is the submissive.  Yet many submissive, or submissive-curious men, respond very well to this - they enjoy it, they get engaged by it, they find it exciting, if there's chemistry.  I am not very fond of cut and dried negotiation out of the gate or rules being put in place before I can comfortably be who I am; if a man is resistant or difficult in response to my advances, as subtle as they may be, I lose interest anyway.  It's a self selecting process.

Online, though, it's a different ballgame.  We (femdoms, not speaking for all, disclaimers apply) discourage submissive men from presuming they are "submissive to us" when they contact us;. at the same time, dominant men are routinely criticized for coming on to strong with a woman via email or online, assuming she's submissive to him, or giving commands out of the gate.  But is there any room for flirtatious, aggressive, seduction processes online then - at all? I find that power exchange is fairly organic and I like it that way; I integrate commands (I use that word lightly) or control  as flirtation evolves, there is no cut and dried, "Ok, so now I am the dominant and I give the commands, so now you listen to me, and you do as I say," moment -- it's a gentle prodding in that direction that I try to intuitively follow. Still, there are times when I sense that a submissive may wish for more direction, more demanding tones from me - and other times I feel that being too demanding, or appearing bossy, may push a potential partner in the wrong direction.  Of course, just communicating about it would be effective - though, does that take some of the organic passion out of it?

If the process of power exchange is somewhat like making love, for example, is there something to be said for letting it evolve naturally, vs. spelling it all out to the point that it removes the passion?

Akasha





chezzy52 -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 1:28:52 PM)

Great topic and for what it is worth..depends on the submissive in question and your intuition as you stated.For me,i rather start slow..i need a get to know period before i can become comfortable with anyone giving me commands  and if you are playful about it at first..well i like that even more.Why??..Because to me it shows definite interest and that as the Domina..you don't mind sharing a laugh or two..it is a positive step in the absolute direction you wish to take it...that's all from me.



Sylverdawn -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 1:30:59 PM)

As, I have had no luck really with online interpersonal relationships of the FemDom submissive quality  I cant really comment. I assume its because they either arent into my type as narrated in my discriptive or they don't get my humor. I type much like I speak sometimes in rambling sentences, other times in short quips. I dont really understand the dynamics of online flirting. Iam who I am not particularly adept at subtle understandings or symbolic gestures perhaps that is my problem. Oddly enough I ment my husband online he got me from the word go but then we met with no expectation of each other. So I would say let evolve natuarally thats what worked for me the the only time I succeeded at it.

SD



MistressVnus -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 1:41:05 PM)

quote:

Online, though, it's a different ballgame.  We (femdoms, not speaking for all, disclaimers apply) discourage submissive men from presuming they are "submissive to us" when they contact us;. at the same time, dominant men are routinely criticized for coming on to strong with a woman via email or online, assuming she's submissive to him, or giving commands out of the gate.  But is there any room for flirtatious, aggressive, seduction processes online then - at all?


BINGO!!  It's almost a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't when it comes to how much Dominant energy to put out there when trying to engage someone on line.  It's is very difficult, at times, to determine what people expect online.  I've given up trying to determine it at all.  I just try to be as much my "regular" self as possible and if that is too much, or too little, Dominant energy for them...well, then so be it.  Anyone who makes determinations about someones actual "energy" without meeting them a couple times is loosing out.  Dominants as well as submissives.  I have learned that "online" can be quite deceptive, either for good, or bad.  And, for me, it is only in meeting someone that I really get a better feel for them.  Hence, I am one who will only do online chat for so long.  Once I determine areas of compatability and some ability to have an engaging conversation, let's meet.  That also weeds out the scardy cats, wankers, and only curious.
If they don't want to meet.  Oh well!!  I don't like chatting for months only to find out there were full of it all along.
So, flirting online can be a double edged sword.  It can feed the wanker, those to afraid to really engage, and the curious.  It can also entice someone into a meeting.  Like I said...dayumed if you do and dayumed if you don't.

quote:

If the process of power exchange is somewhat like making love, for example, is there something to be said for letting it evolve naturally, vs. spelling it all out to the point that it removes the passion?


Now THIS is how I like it in action.  Real time.  Slowly testing somone's "willingness," shall we say, to let me cross those boundaries of indicativeness.  It's the sudiction of it all.   Negotiations should be for later on.  When emotions, bonding, and mutual desires for more become apparent.

I used to have a banner that read "She'll seduce your submission, and romance your surrender."  It's all about the dance.
Sometimes it has all gotten so clinical, cut/dry, and full of apprehension that all the fun of the seduction has been lost.

Great topic.



aidan -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 2:35:55 PM)

I just wanna say that most of those examples would probably get my engine revving, but if somebody I didn't know (and, now that I think about it, a lot of people I do know >_>) handed me something and said "drink this," I'd be very wary. ;-p

That said...Text is not a terribly nuanced or subtle medium, compared even to vocal communication, and especially to face-to-face interaction. It's not as easy to project simple, small, subtle signs of Dominance or submission in conversation, because the range of senses being used is drastically less. I don't think you really can do any kind of Dominance/submission flirting until some familiarity is built, otherwise it comes out too blunt.

The best subtle trick I can think of is pronoun caps (You, i, that kind of thing), but that'll grate a lot of people who are sticklers for grammar.



Pyrrsefanie -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 4:54:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
...If the process of power exchange is somewhat like making love, for example, is there something to be said for letting it evolve naturally, vs. spelling it all out to the point that it removes the passion?


I've heard many people argue that online domination and "pro"-domination is completely passionless to begin with.  Which really doesn't surprise me, since to the casual observer, it's just words on a screen; or in the case of the pros, a quote-unquote "business venture."

(In the following bit of musing, I am using "you," "your," etc. in the general and all-encompassing sense, not in the specific pronoun form.)

My personal belief is that we ladies who truly enjoy what we do maintain that passion within us, no matter the circumstances -- for some the flame may be dimmed slightly by the lack of a slow, drawn-out period of seduction.  But I don't believe that turning to issuing demands straight off the bat can completely extinguish it.

Some people are simply more to-the-point, in which case being so straightforward, sans all the sweet and sexy frills, would probably throw fuel onto that fire inside of them.  I fall onto the other side of the fence, myself; I love seduction because it involves getting so far into a person's psyche and emotional responses that you could almost say seduction is the greatest mindfuck of them all... I'm fascinated with the way that people's minds work and what makes them tick.  It's a challenge to get them going, to draw them in and have them so hopelessly entranced with the web you weave that they wouldn't dare dream of wriggling away from it.



Politesub53 -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 5:06:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aidan

The best subtle trick I can think of is pronoun caps (You, i, that kind of thing), but that'll grate a lot of people who are sticklers for grammar.



aidan if you do get into the habit of using caps online, its wise not to write " i hope You have a wonderful day" in your sister-in-laws birthday card. It can take some explaining ( allegedly )



Politesub53 -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 5:09:48 PM)

Ladies, flirtation with a dominant edge added is extremly seductive. Try telling a guy " Theres the door" with a big grin on your face. My bet is he stays no matter how apprehensive he is.



vampchick88 -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 5:28:01 PM)

  It all depends on my mood. If I'm playful I'll be flirtatious and demanding with pet, but the two can be seperated as well. I agree I think nearly all men enjoy when a woman is demanding. The few times so far that I've gotten demanding with pet it made him melt into a little pile of goo....I could do anything I wanted with him he would have done my every whim. While we both can be flirty and have a great time its always fun to have my time to let him know his place and toy around with him for a while.



AAkasha -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 8:28:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aidan

I just wanna say that most of those examples would probably get my engine revving, but if somebody I didn't know (and, now that I think about it, a lot of people I do know >_>) handed me something and said "drink this," I'd be very wary. ;-p



Hhaha..well..to clarify, the "Drink THIS"-type command comes in a public place where the victim -- oops, man -- can see the drink being poured and knows it's not drugged or anything.  I've had the opportunity to flirt lately, and realized just how much of my flirtation is so blatantly femdomish that it's impossible, if a man was submissive, to miss it. 

When I was new to dating, barely old enough to drive a car, I remember sitting in dark movie theaters on a first date.  I was always the one to initiate first contact, holding hands, etc.  I would not just hold hands, but move to hold him by the wrist.  That would usually get a guy to kind of look over, in the dark, in a sort of, "What's that about" kind of way.  But I wouldn't let him squirm away, I'd hold his wrist, then lean over, and take the other wrist.  I'd press them together and hold them that way when I kissed him.  If at that point a guy didn't know that maybe I was into some kind of control, I don't know what else he'd be thinking....

Akasha



AFlyInYourWeb -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 8:38:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

If the process of power exchange is somewhat like making love, for example, is there something to be said for letting it evolve naturally, vs. spelling it all out to the point that it removes the passion?

Akasha



On-line, I believe the mere presence of myself and the Lady on a site like Collarme spells it all out to my satisfction as regards D/s and BDSM.

Although the Lady's profile usually does not answer every question I may have about her, its mere presence tells me that eventually the conversation will get around to subjects near and dear to our hearts.  Since she is the Domina, I'm content to let the timing to be at her leisure.

In the initial exchange of e-mails, I'll usually blather on about my everyday life and non-kinky interests, pastimes, and hobbies, of which I have many.

I'm pretty flirty myself, and if the Lady is so inclined, I leave her plenty of openings to flirt back.  That sort of flirting can sometimes can lead to what I have referred to as an "electronic strip-tease", where answering her specific prompts ["tell me more about this" or "answer this question for me"] reveal parts of me bit by bit, at the  pace she wants to know them.

Sure, I have the same thousand-and-one questions that every other male submissive has.  Over time, I've learned to put them on the back burner and enjoy the flirty "getting to know you" phase.

I'll get the answers I need in her good time.   



undergroundsea -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/18/2008 10:05:00 PM)

My response is similar to what I wrote in Elan's thread. How I would feel about what is done towards D/s flirtation depends on what is done, and the level of familiarity. I would respond positively to examples given. Factors that would bring a negative response is if there is not chemistry (which falls under the familiarity umbrella), and if there is a sense of disrespect. I have sometimes felt frustrated and resentful when the flirting or whatever was done suggested that I did not have a choice about whether I was interested in the person and my interest level was not there, or not as strong as the act assumed. Perhaps a less aggressive approach would have worked better, perhaps it would not have mattered. Space is also important if the flirting suggests unmatched interest levels. A conflict with a boundary is another example of what would bring a negative response.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
If the process of power exchange is somewhat like making love, for example, is there something to be said for letting it evolve naturally, vs. spelling it all out to the point that it removes the passion?


I prefer the organic route and like to preserve the passion and spontaneity. The approach to which I am gravitating is a mix of spontaneity and negotiation. I think the flirting is best done spontaneously but in ways that are less likely to be threatening or to bring a negative response. I think what occurs beyond the flirting is done best with a mix of spontaneity and negotiation. I lean towards using negotiation (when that time has been reached) to identify boundaries and general preferences, and trying to leave the specifics to spontaneity.

To me, the only difference with online exchanges is that the familiarity or chemistry is a bigger uncertainty, which can have me be more cautious at each end of the flirting. Aside from this difference, I see the significance of flirting to be similar across online and in person mediums.

Cheers,

Sea



Wheldrake -> RE: The dynamics of flirtation and being demanding (3/19/2008 1:05:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

If the process of power exchange is somewhat like making love, for example, is there something to be said for letting it evolve naturally, vs. spelling it all out to the point that it removes the passion?


I can see the merits of both approaches – the slow, “organic” loss of control and the period of clear, straightforward negotiation followed by a sudden plunge into submission. On the one hand, the delicious sense of being gradually seduced, as the willing victim is led slowly into deep waters that will finally close over his head.  On the other, a slowly rising anticipation as he nervously discusses the arrangements for his own coming surrender, followed by that one sublime moment of transition from freedom to servitude. From my point of view as a submissive, I really can’t decide which is better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Online, though, it's a different ballgame.


I’ve never been seduced into submission online, but I’m sure it’s possible, given a bit of imagination. The prowling dominant could begin calmly and innocently, then show a hint of her true colours. The first indication might be a question that’s just a bit too intrusive and personal, a teasing threat to gag the boy if he doesn’t stop making horrible puns, perhaps a firm request to make himself available again at the same time the next day. Gradually, the threats would become more explicit, nastier in the best possible sense of the word, and the requests would become increasingly peremptory and demanding. Eventually, the requests would become commands, and the threats would become reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Still, there are times when I sense that a submissive may wish for more direction, more demanding tones from me - and other times I feel that being too demanding, or appearing bossy, may push a potential partner in the wrong direction.  Of course, just communicating about it would be effective - though, does that take some of the organic passion out of it?


Isn’t it just a matter of interpreting your “victim’s” responses? If he seems uncomfortable, or tries to change the subject a lot, perhaps you’re pushing a bit too hard. And if he’s constantly dropping flirtatious hints himself, perhaps he’s hoping you’ll push harder. I suppose (without being able to read your mind, of course) that it might spoil your predatory fun if a man you’re trying to slowly ensnare becomes too eager to rush into your clutches. Perhaps one way to deal with that would be to say something inventive, unexpected, and a bit outlandish, so that he has reason to wonder what he’s getting himself into. It all sounds like rather hard work –I’m sure it has its rewards, but I’m much happier as prey.



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