The predatory Femdom: What about consent?

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The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/29/2005 12:25:07 PM

AAkasha

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I've met many subs who love the idea of being pursued and seduced. I'll admit, that's one of my hot buttons as well. The process of identifying a "victim," finding out how to push his buttons, coercing him into compromising positions (ie, getting him to allow himself to be tied up), prodding him to do something that at first he said, "no...uh, I'd rather not do that..." (something playful, light -- not something hardcore) -- it's all very erotic to me.

When it's taken out of the context of a negotiated, clear-cut bdsm interaction, the question of consent can become blurred. When there is no "safeword," this is even more true. When part of the thrill between the people is the resistance, the hesitation, the uncertainty -- it's even more dangerous.

So much so that I would state -- granted, this may be sexist -- that men have FAR less leeway when it comes to playing the subtle bdsm consent and seduction game. Let me be clear here and state that I'm talking specifically of light bdsm, no pain. When a woman playfully ties up a man during their first or second date and they're both laughing and he's saying, "ok, come on, stop, I think you're scaring me now," and she's getting off on that in a way, she's reading between the lines and assuming he's not *seriously* telling her to stop. It's a given that if he really *did* want her to stop, he could stand up and she'd fall off of him and onto the floor. Women don't have this luxury if they are on the bottom in that situation.

I've been in many situations where I carefully walked that line between seduction and coercion, and if anything I was painfully overcautious. If a guy said "no, stop," I always would -- and often he'd say "I was just kidding, keep going! I figured it wouldn't be any fun for you if I just gave in..." (BINGO!).

But it's just more exciting when you don't blantanly lay out the rules. I don't say to a guy, "Ok, I know I barely know you, but later on tonight I'm going to start to tie you up without saying anything. Ok, when I do that, I want you to have a safeword. If you use this word, I will stop." etc.

I think the same non verbal grace and "reading" a partner is needed here that is needed in a vanilla situation on a first or second date -- a guy doesn't say at the start of the date, "Ok, I'm going to kiss you at the end of the evening, and rather than try to read your body language when we have that awkward silence, I'm going to ask you now to give me a special code to tell me if you are accepting of my advances."

How do you balance seduction and consent?

Akasha

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/29/2005 12:42:12 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

How do you balance seduction and consent?

Akasha

With a LOT of care [laugh]

Actually, I've been "Mr. Buzzkill" on more than one occasion for stopping fun things and launching into a lecture and consent request. Sometimes it's been met with a "thank you." Sometimes, with grudging frustration and acceptance and sometimes with almost hostility. But the results let me sleep at night.

Oh, I'll do the old "party troll" thing with a violet wand. Letting the sparks jump to my fingers, smiling and pretending to look at the sparks while covertly scanning for someone, horrified expression on her face slowly edging closer. You can almost see "my god, it looks so bad; why is it turning me on; feet, stop moving me closer; stop, I say" going on in her head. But before any serious play we'll have to do at least a 100 miniWiseman negotiation.

I'll admit to being caught up. One time a friend came over and I was incidentally showing her our play room and "may I see that" because "could I feel that" to full scene play. I can't even really remember how each step happened but finally we were in full resistence-roleplay mode. When I realized this, I asked her "Are you having fun?" and got no reply. Finally, I pinned her down and literally yelled "If you don't tell me your safeword, I am going to STOP". She paused, looked at me and yelled back. "My safeword is redlight, you magnificent rapist!"

We continued.

However, people learn from mistakes. Since then I've alwasy done at least a minimum of a negotation with anything more than "does that really sting?" sort of things.

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/29/2005 3:16:59 PM

lonewolf05

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AAkasha<<<
--------------------

sometimes i think i have missed something........

wish i knew what seduction WAS.......never had ANY female come-onto-me. i am no pretty boy.

hmm. my mind wanders....

ah well..

wolf

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/29/2005 7:53:12 PM

LadyHibiscus

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Not all mature women select for beauty, Wolf.

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/29/2005 8:13:13 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Not all mature women select for beauty, Wolf.

Thank god that applies to submissive as well as dominant women. I may be old, fat and losing my hair but I do have certain skills.

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/30/2005 7:32:56 AM

thetammyjo

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This sort of seduction resembles what I did in high school with boyfriends -- I didn't have the words for what I was doing and I didn't know how to negotiate (not a skill that taught very well in the vanilla world).

And yet, I did ask by saying "I'd like to tie you up. You cool with that." They could have said "no" but I think they said yes because they hoped it would result in intercourse. In other words, I don't think they really thought beyond their pants about what I was saying.

I'm not trying to say that this behavior is only for high schoolers -- I think what you are describing, AAkasha, is the norm in most pop sexuality and fits well into the standard vanilla model of "it just happens" or it needs to be "spontaneous".

I think because of my own personal history, I am just not comfortable with this approach and I sometimes wonder if I should apologize to that high school boys.

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/30/2005 11:45:27 AM

onceburned

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I sometimes wonder if I should apologize to that high school boys.

Nah, they probably figured it was a worthwhile gamble, for the reason you suggested.

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/30/2005 1:30:26 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

[…] this may be sexist -- that men have FAR less leeway when it comes to playing the subtle bdsm consent and seduction game.

I agree. The gender power dynamics as they are in our society make it that it is easier for Dominant women to push the envelope with submissive men then it is for Dominant men to push the envelope with submissive women. In the case of same sex relationships, I believe it more complex.

quote:

I've been in many situations where I carefully walked that line between seduction and coercion, and if anything I was painfully overcautious. If a guy said "no, stop," I always would -- and often he'd say "I was just kidding, keep going! I figured it wouldn't be any fun for you if I just gave in..." (BINGO!).

I love that game too. To be honest, if it gets too contrived or technical, I tend to get turned off. I will say that I try to find out someone’s limits early on, casually, etc. It’s not very hard to get men to talk subtlety about their turn-ons over a glass of wine. For example, I might ask “so do you like feeling vulnerable to a woman?” Their answer and reaction usually gives me a lot of feedback as to how far I can push the envelope and how to approach the situation. I’ve had everything from “no way, that makes me totally uncomfortable” (indicating that it’s probably not going to work) to “never tried it but it might be interesting” (indicating proceed slowly with much caution) to “oh boy! Do I ever” (indicating a green light, but also being cautious to gauge how far).

quote:

But it's just more exciting when you don't blantanly lay out the rules.

Agreed. Much too contrived for me. Also, in the negotiation process, so much can be lost. What might seem interesting to someone at first might not be as hot for them in mid-romp. An example I have is man that approached me as “submissive” on a kinky dating network. We went out, we clicked, we really had nice chemistry. He had filled out a BDSM checklist which I read and on it he indicated he liked CBT (he did specify that he never tried it but that the idea turned him on a lot). At one point when things were getting heated (well he was tied up wrists to ankles and lying on his dining room table ;-) I asked him what kind of things he fantasized about when it came to CBT (this was my subtle/sexy way of getting info about how far to go). As I was listening to his answer, I started squeezing his balls light to medium (I’ve squeezed enough balls in my life to know that he was extra-sensitive) and he screamed so loud he made me jump. He nervously asked me to untie him. I did and we just sat on his couch talking for the rest of the night. He admitted that he was surprised himself about his reaction and he was very apologetic. He felt like he mislead me/let me down. I didn’t make him feel any worse then he already did. But this just goes to show that just because he gave consent didn’t give me carte blanche. Judgement is a bigger factor.

quote:

I think the same non verbal grace and "reading" a partner is needed here that is needed in a vanilla situation on a first or second date [...]

This comes to support what I just said about judgement. We really need to learn to communicate and use our judgement. There are ways of gauging how someone is doing without always saying “are you ok sweetie?” and breaking the mood. This part takes a little bit of creativity in order to not come across contrived.

- LA

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 9/30/2005 2:10:28 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I sometimes wonder if I should apologize to that high school boys.

Nah, they probably figured it was a worthwhile gamble, for the reason you suggested.

We can joke about it in ways now, but it's really a delicate and dangerous line to walk, and one full of ethical questions. What does a femdom do when she knows that the guy she's flirting with is engaging in bondage games merely because he thinks it will lead to sex? I mean that's what it comes down to when you're in your early 20s and you tell a guy you're dating that you're kinky, or you start engaging in bondage. Of course, his mindset goes to "HOT DAMN! She's KINKY!" -- he thinks that means, "Hot damn, she's EASY! I'm gonna get laid!"

It's just not true -- at least in my case, and I think a lot of other femdoms also. I had to say very, very often, "Look, just because I'm pretty kinky and into a lot of sensual games doesn't mean I'm going to have sex with you. So don't say yes to this thinking it's going to lead to sex -- that's a decision to be made when it's appropriate."

Of course guys say "yeah yeah of course, sure..." but you know what they're thinking.

Akasha

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 10/24/2005 1:49:25 AM

CantResist

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As one who has been a "victim" of this in the past, I see nothing wrong with a Domme acting in this fashion. Seducing a man into submission is no different than any other kind of seduction. If he didn't like it or truly was offended he would say so or simply not return. So he went aong because he thought he'd eventually get sex from her. How is that different from many seductions that occur during dating? He was aroused when he made his decisions? Is that really different from a man buying a woman a couple of drinks to "loosen her inhibitions"?

He won't agree to anything he really objects to...and he won't return if he doesn't get sex and didn't like the play. Seduce him and give him a taste. If he comes back for more, he is fair game.

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 10/24/2005 10:42:47 AM

Nuke718

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An interesting topic. I agree strongly with 2 of the initial points. It is tremedously more erotic to seduce somebody into "kinky play" than it is to negotiate the same act. And secondly men have to be a lot more cautious of such activity.

Not having a primary interest or fetish, I tend when on the Dominant side just do whatever gets the reaction I want. For instance with a 'nilla or kink-neutral woman I usually will at least alude to my dark depraved past (as one woman put it). They know it is in me to do things other men might not. And then I lead them up to the point of something happening and back slowly away. Assuming she reacts positively I do this repeatedly, in a way very similar to protracted orgasm tease/denial play.

My eventual goal is for her to ask for it, "please spank me" or what have you.

Nuke }:-

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RE: The predatory Femdom: What about consent? - 10/24/2005 11:15:26 AM

Foibey

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I've been playing around this area more recently, and have ended up coming down to a "watch their eyes *real* closely for the switchover from scared and having fun to scared and gonna call the cops and don't take things too fast" approach. I wouldn't even consider it with someone I didn't know well enough to be able to tell from their eyes, facial expressions and body movement etc. But then I'm fairly scared of myself when it gets into that territory too.

There are enough people around (mostly in the vanilla world as far as I've met them) who've been coerced into stuff they didn't really want as a result of that arena's lack of negotiation, discussion and solid standards of consent for this to be a serious danger area that shouldn't just be left to "well 'nilla people never hash stuff out so much so why should we?"

< Message edited by Foibey -- 10/24/2005 11:19:33 AM >

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