RE: Definition please? (Full Version)

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OsideGirl -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 12:27:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShereKhan

Interesting... Seems like an oxymoron. It would almost seem as if the sub is attempting to top from the bottom.

Shere Khan


Ummmmm NO

I am a masochistic submissive to my Master. I enjoy being a sadistic Top to other women. My sadistic side comes no where near my Master, unless it is because he has given me permission to play and is watching a scene in which I am topping. How does this equal topping from the bottom?




OsideGirl -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 12:30:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

It's all in the *intent*. If a "submissive" intends to anger an authorative figure in order to get punishment, her "submissiveness" is a ruse. In effect, she is trying to manipulate the situation to being about her. Which places the dynamic in her hands, giving her power, thus eliminating her "submissiveness".


This is actually the difinition of a Brat or a SAM (Smart Assed Masochist) not a sadistic submissive. Damn, now we need a kinky dictionary.




kimmypuss -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 12:32:33 PM)

Maybe a Super Dumb Question...

can one be a submissive without being a masochist?





IronBear -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 1:10:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kimmypuss

Maybe a Super Dumb Question...

can one be a submissive without being a masochist?




I’m not sure as far as submissives go, but a slave generally has a need to submit to a Master or Mistress and to serve their owner and be pleasing. They will know that punishment will occur if they are disobedient, but their main drive is to serve.

A desire to serve does not equate necessarily with masochism or we would have service industries filled with masochists …. Hmmmmm maybe we do seeing the amount of times I see shop staff ignore customers until they are dragged over the coals by their supervisor…




ModeratorEleven -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 1:21:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kimmypuss

can one be a submissive without being a masochist?

Of course.

XI




JohnWarren -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 1:54:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kimmypuss

Maybe a Super Dumb Question...

can one be a submissive without being a masochist?


Not dumb at all. The two are separate domains. One can be quite masochistic without being the least bit submissive, like Janet Hardy, the author, and one can be submissive but not at all masochistic like Smiler, one of my dear friends. A submissive wants to serve. A masochist enjoys what others call pain under certain circumstances.

The two domains interpenetrate in many people so there are a large number of masochistic submissives. But then there are also large numbers of submissives who are exhibitionists... and who enjoy pets or cooking.

Complicating the equation are submissives who tolerate pain if their dominant wants to inflict it. If they enjoy the symbol rather than the pain, I'd be reluctant to call them masochistic but if they want the title so be it.




IronBear -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 1:55:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

It's all in the *intent*. If a "submissive" intends to anger an authorative figure in order to get punishment, her "submissiveness" is a ruse. In effect, she is trying to manipulate the situation to being about her. Which places the dynamic in her hands, giving her power, thus eliminating her "submissiveness".


This is actually the difinition of a Brat or a SAM (Smart Assed Masochist) not a sadistic submissive. Damn, now we need a kinky dictionary.



~ VWEG foloowed by a Huge bearish Grin ~ Ok Bobby, when are you going to puiblish it???? ~ Innocent look ~

[image]local://upfiles/131423/44870EECD6584EAD8B88831ECBC846AD.jpg[/image]




RavenofPK -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 2:47:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

Define away.

~stef


Very well.

Any dominant man is authoritive over any woman, submissive or not. Period. Now, before all you raging feminists start tossing your estrogen around in offense, I will explain.

All that is required is the acknowledgement of their authority. Actual action on a man's part is NOT necessary. Broken down to it's most natural, carnal, and barbaric definition.......a man is less likely to brain a female to death due to her defiance IF he simply is aware that she acknowledges his authority.

You may not like it, but men are violent creatures. Women need to diffuse that violence instead of feed it.

Raven.

Author edit: You asked. I answered. Honestly.




EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 2:55:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kimmypuss

Maybe a Super Dumb Question...

can one be a submissive without being a masochist?



Yes, as I said before, Ds is on a completely different axis from S&M. Many subs are not masochists, many doms are not sadists.




mistoferin -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 2:58:42 PM)

quote:

You may not like it, but men are violent creatures. Women need to diffuse that violence instead of feed it.


I'm so sorry but I just have to....and I am not even a raging feminist. If I were a man I would be livid at your blanket generalization. Men are not violent creatures by nature. There are some men though who do not have enough emotional maturity or control to keep themselves in check. They have not developed the coping skills to deal with life in any manner other than that of throwing 12 year old temper tantrums. At least not until the cops arrive on the scene....then they somehow miraculously have full composure...even if they are standing over the woman they just brained. When they get to court they usually don't try to even convince the lady judge that they are authoritative over them. As a matter of fact, at that point they are usually pathetic creatures begging the poor woman for her leniency.

Instead of making women responsible for men's violence.....why don't we try to make people accountable for their own actions. Women's defiance is not the cause of men's violence unless men are not in control of their own reactions....and if they are not in control that hardly makes them seem to be very authoritative or Dominant. A little personal responsibility goes a long way.




sweetpettjenny -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 3:11:13 PM)

yes of course, there are many forms of submission..
quote:

ORIGINAL: kimmypuss

Maybe a Super Dumb Question...

can one be a submissive without being a masochist?







OsideGirl -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 3:15:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

It's all in the *intent*. If a "submissive" intends to anger an authorative figure in order to get punishment, her "submissiveness" is a ruse. In effect, she is trying to manipulate the situation to being about her. Which places the dynamic in her hands, giving her power, thus eliminating her "submissiveness".


This is actually the difinition of a Brat or a SAM (Smart Assed Masochist) not a sadistic submissive. Damn, now we need a kinky dictionary.



~ VWEG foloowed by a Huge bearish Grin ~ Ok Bobby, when are you going to puiblish it???? ~ Innocent look ~

[image]local://upfiles/131423/44870EECD6584EAD8B88831ECBC846AD.jpg[/image]


[:D] A is for alpha, anal, damn I ran out of A's already.




kimmypuss -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 4:37:27 PM)

thanks for all the answers.

... from a non-masochist
[:D]




theRose4U -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 4:50:07 PM)

quote:

Any dominant man is authoritive over any woman


Got news for ya sweetheart I AM DOMME as far as any man having authority over me just because he was born with a penis...he needs to think again. the FIFTY MEN that answer to me for their very jobs would agree.

If this makes me a feminist in your narrow minded world then so be it...

<insults deleted>

[Mod note: Personal insults are not acceptable here. You're welcome to disagree with something a poster writes, but there is no call for comments like the ones I just deleted.]




krys -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 5:07:43 PM)

Can we just skip the attack the poster and not the post thing for once in this thread? Just for a change of pace? Does disagreeing with someone's point of view really necessitate name calling?




KittenWithaTwist -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 6:12:55 PM)

An observation: Men seem very focused on gender domination. Submissive men are attached to the female supremacy fetish. They come to me often and question my disgust with this particular belief/fascination. Curiously, they never respond when I calmly outline why one gender is no better/faster/stronger/smarter/cooler than the other. Dominant men are equally attached to the female inferiority fetish. They boast often about how women all over the world are constantly in a submissive role because they were "bred" or "born" or "designed" to be that way because (insert deity) makes it so. Curiously, they never respond when I calmly outline why one gender is no better/faster/stronger/smarter/cooler than the other.

Women are no better than men. Men are no better than women. As two genders within the same species, we have certain characteristics that make us complimentary. For instance, women commonly produce more estrogen than men. However, women, like men, also produce testosterone. Some women produce more testosterone than estrogen. Women, naturally, are built with ovaries, which, when joined with the male's sperm, create an embryo. These things make a female mammal.

Men produce more testosterone than women, but they also produce estrogen. Some menproduce more estrogen than testosterone. Men, naturally, are built with penises, which carry the sperm, created in the testicles, which is spit from the member during ejaculation. The sperm combines with the ovary, or egg, to produce an embryo. These things make a male mammal.

This is where our differences end, naturally, biologically. You can say that some men are more inclined to muscle mass. This is true in *some* men but not all men. Some women are more inclined to muscle mass as well. This is true of some women, but not all women. Some men, in your example, are authoritative. This is true of *some* men, not all men. Some women are authoritative.

Must I continue, or are you getting my point?

Humans are unique from most other species of mammals, and even from our closest relatives, the apes. Most mammal species, though hardly all, are active in small groups, controlled socially by a male, but ecologically and biologically by a female, or several females. Look at the Lion. The male lion is socially dominant. Yet, he does not kill his food when in a pride. He does not feed his young, and is oft times seen as a danger to them. He is, essentially, a figurehead. A female lioness is perfectly capable of protecting her young. She hunts for and kills her own food. She can hold her own in a fight. She is probably only protected by the male because *he* needs HER to keep his family tree intact. He's lost without her.

My point, in all this?

Human being are unique in that we need each other to live. In this society, in the Western World, we do not have "natural" enemies. There is no need to protect the woman from lions and tigers and bears (oh my!) or even from natural disaster or disease. At least, no more so than there is a need to protect the men. Naturally, biologically, we are all of the same value.

Socially, women can carry as much authority as men. Look at Martha Stewart. Check out Elizabeth the First, Queen Victoria, and Hillary Clinton. Admire such incredible women as Rosie O Donnell, Madonna, and my own mother, who is the most dominant woman I have ever met, who cared for and protected her own young, provided their food, and fought off danger.

I fully respect your desire to be Gorean. I understand that it is something you believe in and desire. But when you attempt to impose your beliefs on others, you will meet a whole host of intelligent women, both submissive and dominant in their own relationships, who can quite calmly show you that in the real world, outside of D/s, outside of Gor, outside of S&M, we're all the same.

Simply put, no one is better.




stef -> RE: Definition please? (10/8/2005 6:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

Author edit: You asked. I answered. Honestly.

Your rather interesting definition doesn't change my question.

What if that sadism isn't directed towards an "authoritative figure in order to get punishment"? What if it's not directed at any authoritative figure at all?

~stef




gratefulangel -> RE: Definition please? (10/10/2005 10:03:24 PM)

Im not sure how to explain "what" exactly a "sadistic submissive" is but i do know someone "who" is a sadistic submissive. Me.[;)]




night101owl -> RE: Definition please? (10/11/2005 7:17:49 AM)

Raven,
I get that you're just being honest, and it's good for people to get in touch with their beliefs. I'm glad that I don't have to interact with a lot of people who share your beliefs, though-- if a man needs me to acknowledge his authority over me in order to feel good about himself (or to be able to control his violent impulses), then he's bound to be disappointed (and if incapable to controlling his violence through other means, incarcerated). I guess that's just called incompatibility.


But to get back to the thread-- there are several references here to obnoxious submissives being sadists. I think that gets away from one core aspect of sadomasochism within the BDSM context, which is consent. If someone is nonconsensually causing another person pain (physical or emotional), well that's sadism in the strict dictionary sense, but not the fun or ethical sense.

If you get right down to it, a clever sadist plays consensually, because willing and eager masochists will come back for more.

So sure, sadomasochism can incorporate emotional manipulation and such, but I wouldn't automatically think of that kind of manipulation as a common tool of sadistic submissives-- the submissive sadists I know are far more skilled at using knives, canes, needles, and whips. They just may require their dominants' permission in order to use them.




Phoenixandnika -> RE: Definition please? (10/11/2005 3:00:02 PM)

Greetings,

My Master agrees I am not only His slave but I am both a sadist and masochist. Does that make me any less of a slave. I don't think so. That is like saying I can not walk and chew gum.

Nika, Phoenix's Gothic Slave




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