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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 8:43:18 AM   
kittinSol


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Are you an anarchist?

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 8:53:03 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

You just don't have any grasp of history or the meaning of socialism, for that matter. Your comparison and reference speaks for itself. Anyone who has studied history knows full well that the "outcomes" are far from predetermined --- hence there can never be any "ultimate outcome" of anything. No, what you have instead is "the way it happened," which in and of itself is always difficult if not impossible to determine.

When government diktat replaces individual liberty, suffering increases.  That is the lesson of history.

However, you are quite correct to point out the distinction between a Stalin or a Mao and Obama--the first two had both the brains and strength of character to do real damage.  The foolishness of Obama's ideas is mitigated by his flimsy, facile, nature.  His ultimate outcome is to be more of a joke President a la Jimmy Carter.


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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 8:58:54 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

That's what happens when indoctrination is substituted for education:  it's not necessary to understand socialism, just to denounce it as evil.

Inasmuch as it is evil, why not denounce it?  Why accommodate a bad idea?


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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:01:02 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

You just don't have any grasp of history or the meaning of socialism, for that matter. Your comparison and reference speaks for itself. Anyone who has studied history knows full well that the "outcomes" are far from predetermined --- hence there can never be any "ultimate outcome" of anything. No, what you have instead is "the way it happened," which in and of itself is always difficult if not impossible to determine.

When government diktat replaces individual liberty, suffering increases.  That is the lesson of history.



What you wrote is nonsense. Personal liberty killed something like 10 million native Americans.

Wasn't it Ulyses Grant that had a programme of starving the praire indians to get them off US real estate?

Universal sufferage has only been around for abouyt 100 years and free and democratic countries have managed to do their fair share of slaughtering.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/4/2008 9:02:25 AM >


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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:16:58 AM   
RealityLicks


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Merc, isn't one of the functions of a central bank to guard the economic wellbeing of your country?  You make it sound as though you can't wait for a recession to begin, doubtless because you can make a buck? 

Didn't you say that a debate on socialism versus capitalism would be endless and achieve nothing?  I moved on because my idea of society is quite different to yours, I view yours as being distinctly misguided, I view the success of the people around me as contributory to my own, regardless of whether I personally like them or even know them.  If I wanted to experience nature red in tooth and claw, I'd get a shack in Borneo and eat what I catch.  But overall I opt for the more challenging and disciplined pursuit of cooperating with others to bring about group aims. 

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:26:22 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

cloudboy
You just don't have any grasp of history or the meaning of socialism, for that matter. Your comparison and reference speaks for itself. Anyone who has studied history knows full well that the "outcomes" are far from predetermined --- hence there can never be any "ultimate outcome" of anything. No, what you have instead is "the way it happened," which in and of itself is always difficult if not impossible to determine.


quote:

celtic lord
When government diktat replaces individual liberty, suffering increases.  That is the lesson of history.



Except "government diktat" replacing personal liberty isn't a very accurate description of socialism, you could be talking about McCarthyite America.  To go on to describe it as the lesson of history as if by making the statement you had presented something substantive is embarassingly poor reasoning.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:31:12 AM   
Sanity


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The American Induian wars justifies the slaughter, in your mind, of tens of millions of Ukranians and Chinese by Soviet and Chinese communists?

Really, for your "comparison" to work, wouldn't the U.S. Giovernment have had to deliberately starve half of the United States in this current century?

And "personal iberty" killed people?

Really?

Weird.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
What you wrote is nonsense. Personal liberty killed something like 10 million native Americans.

Wasn't it Ulyses Grant that had a programme of starving the praire indians to get them off US real estate?

Universal sufferage has only been around for abouyt 100 years and free and democratic countries have managed to do their fair share of slaughtering.


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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:32:48 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Except "government diktat" replacing personal liberty isn't a very accurate description of socialism

Actually, it's a very accurate description of socialism.
quote:


system of social organization in which property and the distribution of income are subject to social control rather than individual determination or market forces.



< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 4/4/2008 9:38:58 AM >


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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:40:21 AM   
RealityLicks


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celticlord, that is your opinion - one you clearly cannot stand up - if you want to be taken seriously, you must learn to go beyond repeating your opinion ad nauseam.  I want you to back your opinion with something more than the fact that you hold it because you are quite clearly not an authority.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:45:10 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

celticlord, that is your opinion - one you clearly cannot stand up - if you want to be taken seriously, you must learn to go beyond repeating your opinion ad nauseam.  I want you to back your opinion with something more than the fact that you hold it because you are quite clearly not an authority.

*yawn*....try again.


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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:47:54 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

celticlord, that is your opinion - one you clearly cannot stand up - if you want to be taken seriously, you must learn to go beyond repeating your opinion ad nauseam.  I want you to back your opinion with something more than the fact that you hold it because you are quite clearly not an authority.


Well, that's what these message boards are all about, people's *opinions.*

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:48:50 AM   
RealityLicks


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It's for your own good, celtic, don't be shy.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:52:34 AM   
RealityLicks


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I could give you my opinion on coarse fishing but since I know nothing about it, it would be foolish to do so.  All he has to do is write why he holds his views - and isn't that what these boards are about, too?

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 9:58:41 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Are you an anarchist?

No - I am a pragmatist who believes in individualism and consequences for actions/decisions. A government should be similar to a sports umpire. Necessary, but if you notice it, it isn't doing its job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Merc, isn't one of the functions of a central bank to guard the economic wellbeing of your country?  You make it sound as though you can't wait for a recession to begin, doubtless because you can make a buck? 
What now - personal attack? Not that making a buck should be considered a bad thing; but I've made many more "bucks" investing in the religion of 'global warming' than I would have at risk if there were a recession.

If you want to get into pragmatic investing - ALWAYS invest assuming the ignorance of the masses. It was a "no brainer" concerning global warming. People's

Tell me how turning your future and everyone else's future over to the government contributes to global or individual success? You want a challenge? Run a business in this economic environment. My company's contributions are limited by my size however there is no benefit that I get that my employees don't also enjoy. My contributions to society aren't limited to the taxes I pay. But my contributions are focused on those who help themselves and don't expect perpetual entitlement. Talk obviously is very cheap.

But unlike you, I'll answer the direct questions. No the function of a central bank is to administer and manage funds. Any social responsibility is a symptom of the problem we are now facing. Social manipulation, like income re-distribution will never impact either end of the economic spectrum. It will however squeeze out the middle and place them at one of the polar ends. That is exactly what is occurring.

Supporting the corporate welfare going to the banking industry insures that polarization will continue.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/4/2008 10:05:48 AM >

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:06:22 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

The only way I'm voting for anybody other than ron paul is if it is McCain versus Obama. I'll reluctantly vote for Obama. I dislike Obama's world view to, but I'm 100% repelled by Hillary and McCain. I think I might jump in front of a train if I have to listen to either of those two for 4 years. And McCain so alienated me on ever voting for him during the republican debates which I watched religiously. I mean he admitted he doesn't understand economics, and he is about as war obsessed as Satan himself. No fucking way, and Hillary is as close to a communist as you can get, wanting to create a new government project every week.

Hell, at least Obama is anti-war, and will only start a new program every other month. He's still a destructive force as far as I'm concerned, but at this point, it is confirmed we are going to get a bad next president anyway(by my standards), so might as well get the lesser of the bad presidents in office.

I guess. Actually I went from being obsessed with this election to almost not reading anything anymore, once the only ones left were either Satan, or demons(LOL).

Yeah, maybe comparing them with demons and Satan is to much, they are much more destructive than demons could ever be.







But Obama is already talking about "genocides" meaning if he got in the WH he'd try to get the U.S. involved in Africa's problems.
People losing their homes and jobless but at least we helped stop "genocide" in Africa! I bet that will give people in the soup kitchens a warm fuzzy feeling.
Why do our politicians always want to help foreign countries but not U.S. Citizens?
All three of these idiots voted for amnesty for illegal aliens. How's that for "listening" to the American People?
And two of them would be in favor of "foreign aid".
Whoever gets in can be thwarted in the house and senate for 4 years until we can get a *real president* in the WH.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:16:15 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Yeah, being a woman she's just a bitch, if she was a man, she'd be a fighter.

But she ain't so she's a bitch.


As much as it pains me to say it ... I'm starting to think this is true.
 
General response ... 
 
There is no reason for Senator Clinton to bow out now. Why would she, because supporters of Senator Obama say she should?
 
For everyone that can see division, there are others that think it better that these issues come out now, before the Swift Boat boys get hold of it.
 
The Republicans, in the general election, represent the varsity. If our candidates on the left are so weak that a hard primary race will destroy the victor ... then we won't win in November anyway.

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the woman you stole.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:23:49 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Yeah, being a woman she's just a bitch, if she was a man, she'd be a fighter.

But she ain't so she's a bitch.


As much as it pains me to say it ... I'm starting to think this is true.
 
General response ... 
 
There is no reason for Senator Clinton to bow out now. Why would she, because supporters of Senator Obama say she should?
 
For everyone that can see division, there are others that think it better that these issues come out now, before the Swift Boat boys get hold of it.
 
The Republicans, in the general election, represent the varsity. If our candidates on the left are so weak that a hard primary race will destroy the victor ... then we won't win in November anyway.


Caitlyn, are you a betting lady?
I might have a proposal for you regarding the election in November.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:24:50 AM   
luckydog1


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"I hope not.  I'm quite partial to motorways, street lighting, policing, schools and other "comforts" of being a "socialist" and want to live among others who share their benefits."


Why would you think that roads, streetlights, police or schools have anything to do with Socialism?  What do you think Socialism means?  All of the things things you listed preceeded Socialism. 

Universal education was first formally created in Feudal Japan, but it really goes back to the Theocratic God/Kings (everyone had to be educated as to why the King was actually a God) .  The rest,  Roads, Police and Street lights, go back to the dawn of civilization and are found in every cohesive Human Society, all three were covered in the Code of Hamurabi. 

Your not one of those people who go "Socialism ---Society---- Duh" are you?

BTW Celtic lord cited a dictionary definition of Socialism, so to claim he is just saying because he says so is a false accusation on your part.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:29:22 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Yeah, being a woman she's just a bitch, if she was a man, she'd be a fighter.

But she ain't so she's a bitch.


As much as it pains me to say it ... I'm starting to think this is true.


caitlyn,
I really hope you don't believe this tripe. The defeatist position for your own gender is disingenuous. The failure of the Clinton campaign is fundamentally her politics, her platform, and her integrity. Rationalizing that her failure represents that the US isn't ready for a female President serves to perpetuate prejudicial stereotypes.

Is it also assumed that if Senator Obama loses in the general election it had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with his race? Should it be assumed that everyone supporting him is doing so because of his race or in spite of his race? That requires a racist mentality.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:43:48 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Merc, isn't one of the functions of a central bank to guard the economic wellbeing of your country?  You make it sound as though you can't wait for a recession to begin, doubtless because you can make a buck? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercnbethWhat now - personal attack? Not that making a buck should be considered a bad thing;



That's not a personal attack, wasn't meant as one, anyway.  I'm trying to figure out why you see a benefit in a recession.  Bear in mind, intervention or no intervention, no-one knows where the bottom is yet.  And in the last thread we met on, you talked about the "opportunities" you saw in all this and that is my point of reference.

quote:


Tell me how turning your future and everyone else's future over to the government contributes to global or individual success?


I didn't posit that because the fact is mixed economies of varying models are the environment we all exist in.  You'd have a hard time convincing people across Europe, America and the world that they had turned everything over to the government, especially in light of the democratic ideal being exported at present in Iraq.

quote:


You want a challenge? Run a business in this economic environment. My company's contributions are limited by my size however there is no benefit that I get that my employees don't also enjoy. My contributions to society aren't limited to the taxes I pay. But my contributions are focused on those who help themselves and don't expect perpetual entitlement. Talk obviously is very cheap.


Well, I'm self-employed, which isn't quite so grand but in principle is the same thing. And in lean times, like 18 months ago, I've had to do a consultancy and punch the clock for someone else because I had no alternative.  Talk isn't cheap.  I volunteer time and energy to two grassroots organisations, one of which we're turning into a registered charity, a not for profit organisation which can do some of the work local government can't or won't do.  I can't hand out money but I consider my time to be just as valuable.

quote:


But unlike you, I'll answer the direct questions.

Personal attack?

quote:


No the function of a central bank is to administer and manage funds. Any social responsibility is a symptom of the problem we are now facing. Social manipulation, like income re-distribution will never impact either end of the economic spectrum. It will however squeeze out the middle and place them at one of the polar ends. That is exactly what is occurring.

Supporting the corporate welfare going to the banking industry insures that polarization will continue.


That's your theory but time-honoured tradition has the central banks acting otherwise, so we'll wait for the proof to come in from a completely laissez-faire state. 

To my mind, social responsibility is a condition of membership in society.  It seems to me you want your rights to be preserved but not your responsibilities - only then what happens when unscrupulous people fail to shoulder their responsibilities?  Economic blight which could have been avoided.

I believe the fault is in allowing unsustainable practices to become widespread - in other wordds, greed has overtaken prudence and I'm simply not convinced  that innocent people should suffer as a result.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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