RE: depleted Uranium (Full Version)

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Archer -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:25:09 PM)

If I believed it was actually being used in a widesperead careless manner I'd be as upset as you seem to be about it Owner.
However I'm thinking of this based on my time in service armor piercing sabot rounds are a very poor round to use on anything other than armor. DU hazards be damned, it's the fact that a DU round is less likely to kill the enemy (and thus protect my life) than an HEAT round when used on "soft targets" that has me doubtfull that they are being used as widely as the reports we have been hearing. The results just don't match with what I know to be the thought pattern of the soldier.




Smith117 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:33:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

Yawn................Combat may be hazardous to your health, any questions?

On the subject of training videos, this looks like something out of the 1960's or 1970's era.   Do you care to get something that it at least 2 decades within our current training videos????


[sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

Well said.

Scary that you and I agree on something for a change.




Real0ne -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:33:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Point #1 There is nothing as effective as a DU round for taking out heavy armour.



Yeh thats right and if you really wanna do the job right just hit em with a 10 megaton nuke!  Why fuck around.

If you  had bothered to look at th elinks in my previous post you would see they have used it, plenty of it and how many tons do we need to spread before at a 2+ billion year half life before it to much in your opinion?

So whats the point if we are using it this second or not?  The point is we used it in the first place.




Smith117 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:35:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Operation Iraqi Freedom


America rescues the iraqi people from WMD's and promotes freedom in Iraq!

13 New born Iraqi babies.  Arent they cuties?

What about our guys?  Over 200,000 (some say its closer to 400,000 now), of our soldiers have gulf war syndrome.   aka: DU poisoning

They bring it home and poison their wives.

Is it ok to do this to the iraqis and afghans?  4.5 billion, (THATS BILLION!) year 1/2 life.

Is your kid in or going to Iraq?  Is it ok to do this to US Citizens?  Our kids?

Military Claims Uranium Radiation is Safe!!!

US Veterans Arrested for speaking out against the use of depleted uranium in Iraq!  (freedom)

DU poisoning


I believe most of those defects were likely caused by that "lovely" gas saddam just loved using on his own people.




Real0ne -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:39:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

Best analysis I've seen around here in a while, Archer!!!



Problem is all these guys need to do is run around the desert with counters sweep this crap up and fly over new yor, add one tiny litte stick of dynamite to the equation and presto, spread over a few miles and if it gets in the harbor?  Imagine the blowblack from this little fiasco.  Its just laying on the ground and we could wind up with it all in our own back yard.

If some imperialistic bastards tried to take over my turf thats what I wouold be doing :)

Imagine what that would cost in cancer and cleanup aye?







JohnWarren -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:41:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

War Crime???? please cite where that comes into play. Because the only war crime I can see at play would be the use of a large calibre weapon against personel as opposed to being used against equipment. (and that would apply regardless of the material the projectile is made from, the Army told me specificly that a 50 cal machinegun or anything larger was to be used against equipment not personel)


Yup, even the Barrett is supposed to be used to "destroy engine blocks and render electronics inoperative."  Just like the WP grenade.  It was only to be used for marking targets.  Guess the damned things just kept falling into those tunnels.




farglebargle -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:43:31 PM)

I ain't just those in Combat...

"For example, the National Lead Industries factory in Colonie, New York was forced to close in 1980 after uranium particles were found 26 miles downwind of the facility and DU was found in soil at levels 500 times higher than surrounding communities. At the time of closure, the plant was discharging DU at more than ten times the state limit."...

The HILARIOUS thing was when the DU contamination tripped the Rad Sensors over at Knolls Atomic Power Lab... That must have required some changes of undergarments...





Real0ne -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Operation Iraqi Freedom


America rescues the iraqi people from WMD's and promotes freedom in Iraq!

13 New born Iraqi babies.  Arent they cuties?

What about our guys?  Over 200,000 (some say its closer to 400,000 now), of our soldiers have gulf war syndrome.   aka: DU poisoning

They bring it home and poison their wives.

Is it ok to do this to the iraqis and afghans?  4.5 billion, (THATS BILLION!) year 1/2 life.

Is your kid in or going to Iraq?  Is it ok to do this to US Citizens?  Our kids?

Military Claims Uranium Radiation is Safe!!!

US Veterans Arrested for speaking out against the use of depleted uranium in Iraq!  (freedom)

DU poisoning


I believe most of those defects were likely caused by that "lovely" gas saddam just loved using on his own people.



yes and some people believe in aliens dont they?   Do you think sadam created his own arsenal?  He bought the greater majority of it from none other than the good ole US of A Russia etc..

Thankfully the us has never killed any of its own.   waco massacre

I wont mention the DU spread all over a secion of indiana and colorado, and I wont mention the biological shit they spread in new york.  Seems to me that our governemtn rates as a better terrorist than the piddly muslims.


So the question is who is going ot kick our naughtly little asses and spread democracy in our country?







Owner59 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I ain't just those in Combat...

"For example, the National Lead Industries factory in Colonie, New York was forced to close in 1980 after uranium particles were found 26 miles downwind of the facility and DU was found in soil at levels 500 times higher than surrounding communities. At the time of closure, the plant was discharging DU at more than ten times the state limit."...

The HILARIOUS thing was when the DU contamination tripped the Rad Sensors over at Knolls Atomic Power Lab... That must have required some changes of undergarments...




Good points Farg.

Though I see Archer`s POV regarding the crew;who can argue that they don`t deserve every possible edge in battle.But,there are more considerations than just the tank ,Howitzer or APC crews.

There`s the land and blown up junk all over the place that`s contaminated,the people who`ll live there afterward and the GIs who might be down wind of a burning piece of armor w/ DU in it.

And there`s the price we pay at home,to make and handle nuclear materials.





Smith117 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:59:50 PM)

I think a few hundred miles of burning oil fields did more damage than DU rounds could ever do.




Owner59 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 3:01:37 PM)

so let`s have both,lol.

Then we can argue which is worse....

Sheessshh.....

"Some people." [8|]




Slavehandsome -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 3:04:20 PM)

I think the crash into the Pentagon was worse than the crash in Pennsylvania could ever have been. 




Slavehandsome -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 3:06:13 PM)

I think that deploying Blackwater on the streets of the U.S.A is worse than the politicians intentionally tanking the U.S. dollar could ever do. 




Smith117 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 3:11:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

so let`s have both,lol.


We already do. Therefore arguing is pointless.

Point 1: We have people trained in how to handle DU.

Point 2: We don't use them unless they are necessary because there are better rounds for other purposes.

Point 3: The actual danger of exposure is less than an X-ray.

Point 4: Considering the "fall out" from war-based offenses and tactics, DU rounds are so far down the list it's ridiculous. I can name at least 2 "left overs" that are far worse -- burned oil fields and land mines. How many countries are they STILL finding mines from a war fought 20 and 30 years ago?

A little non-dangerous contamination vs. a blown off limb or death.

I believe I'll take the DU please.




farglebargle -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 4:40:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

so let`s have both,lol.


We already do. Therefore arguing is pointless.

Point 1: We have people trained in how to handle DU.


How do you handle the uranium dust spewed over Albany NY by National Lead up to the 80's?

quote:


Point 2: We don't use them unless they are necessary because there are better rounds for other purposes.


The damage to localities IN THE UNITED STATES happens at the time of manufacture.

quote:


Point 3: The actual danger of exposure is less than an X-ray.


Bullshit. There's a cluster right around the National Lead plant.

quote:


Point 4: Considering the "fall out" from war-based offenses and tactics, DU rounds are so far down the list it's ridiculous. I can name at least 2 "left overs" that are far worse -- burned oil fields and land mines. How many countries are they STILL finding mines from a war fought 20 and 30 years ago?


Yeah. I sort of remember a Landmine Ban a few years ago. I wonder why the US wussed out?


quote:


A little non-dangerous contamination vs. a blown off limb or death.

I believe I'll take the DU please.


Of course, YOU aren't really going to ever find yourself exposed to any appreciable amount, are you? I find it horrific that you'd make light of people's cancer.





Smith117 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 5:08:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

How do you handle the uranium dust spewed over Albany NY by National Lead up to the 80's?


I don't. That's not my job. There are people trained for that. Get them to do their job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The damage to localities IN THE UNITED STATES happens at the time of manufacture.


Again, sounds like something to discuss with the manufacturer. The military doesn't control everything there is about DU rounds. Sometimes other companies must take responsibilities for their mistakes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Yeah. I sort of remember a Landmine Ban a few years ago. I wonder why the US wussed out?


Not sure what you mean here, from what I understand, the only mines we use are claymores and are mounted above ground, thus easily removed unless you're being shot at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Of course, YOU aren't really going to ever find yourself exposed to any appreciable amount, are you? I find it horrific that you'd make light of people's cancer.


You don't know for sure that I won't be exposed. And I don't believe I've said word one about anyone's cancer. I said the DU is a minimal risk of health problems. Burned oil wells and mines that KILL, on the other hand are far more serious and pressing.

Nice try to turn this around on me, but you've failed.




shallowdeep -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 10:36:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
If this isn`t an issue or problem, then fine. But we should at least consider it.
Just don't be incurious or willfully ignorant.

A perfectly reasonable position.

quote:

I`ve been hearing stories from the beginning of the war(on NPR,BBC Radio,etc),that UM shells are in constant use and are causing problems.

The US Army and Air Force have acknowledged using 115 metric tons of DU munitions in Iraq from March 2003 to March 2004. In January of 2005, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff claimed that no further DU munitions were being used in Iraq or Afghanistan. Usage from March 2004 - January 2005 and Marine Corps use from March 2003 to March 2004 are less clear, but the totals are probably less than the 286 metric tons used in the Gulf War. The British expended an additional 870kg of DU munitions in Iraq in 2003 and have not used it there since. [source]

While non-trivial, a couple hundred metric tons really isn't enough to cause widespread problems, especially as most of that mass is buried, or sealed in wrecks. It also appears that, after an initial period where DU arguably had some utility, it has been withdrawn from the theatre.

Should it have been used at all? Maybe not. DU is inarguably a great penetrator, but we weren't exactly facing a large amount of quality enemy armor, even in the early part of the war. Did DU munitions help prevent any allied casualties? Maybe, but probably no more than a handful.

In all probability the DU used will only have negative effects on a few people, with only a handful of those, if any, dying significantly prematurely. But while no studies have clearly shown a substantial risk from DU munitions, there are some questions that could use better answers and, especially in cases where water supplies might be affected, relatively costly monitoring and cleanup is recommended by the WHO. When factoring in the bad publicity, even if unjustified, it seems like the smart thing to do would have been to avoid it in the first place. I wouldn't rate it as one of the bigger ones, but its use was arguably a mistake. Keeping DU in the arsenal as an option makes sense, but I agree it's an option that we probably don't need to exercise in lower intensity conflicts.

As to armor alternatives, the M1 already uses composite/Chobham armor. Such armor still needs a metal backing to be effective against kinetic penetrators – and DU provides superior protection to the alternatives, like tungsten. I really think its use in this context is easily justifiable - especially in a combat environment with explosively formed penetrators.

quote:

Same with DU dust. If you eat, breath or get it in an open wound, you could get heavy metal poisoning.

It's absolutely true that uranium is toxic, but you may be overestimating the risks relative to other heavy metals used as munitions, like lead. For instance, the EPA suggests a Maximum Contaminant Level Goal in drinking water of zero for both lead and uranium. However, the Maximum Contaminant Level (the level actually enforced) is set at 30 ug/L for uranium, but a more stringent 15 ug/L for lead [source]. It's best to minimize exposure, but you have to realize uranium is omnipresent naturally and, in small amounts, doesn't appear to pose a huge toxicological threat.




Real0ne -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 11:10:11 PM)



there is no tolerable level!

I suppose there is if you want to talk about immediate death.

Radiation causes cancer and there really is nothing that can be reasonably said to the contrary.

How much nano sized DU are these supporters willing to eat?  I mean since its a tolerable level and all?

I cannot come up with any reason to use du what so ever except as guinea pigs, a testing grounds, and a means to cause birth defects in the population or clear out certain areas from inhabitation for 2 billion years.







MrThorns -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/8/2008 12:04:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

ummm,fyi,....this is an army training film.

Are they conspiracy nuts? lol

Some people....[sm=tongue.gif]


Funny, the film itself says it's not a major hazzard.

Not to mention the fact that I was given a shell casing from one of those rounds that sat on my shelf for years with no ill effects.



I'm guessing you were probably given a casing for a 105mm M1 Abrams round.  These casings are steel and.. most likely, the casing was residue from a training round, which has no DU in it.  The film is also significantly out of date as there is more and more concern given to Soldiers these days who report having been exposed to DU.  I don't see any conspiracy theories here.. DU is nasty shit.  Just as tritium, used in weapon sights... CARC paint, used to paint military vehicles.. it's all pretty unhealthy.  

~Thorns   




MrThorns -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/8/2008 12:15:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shallowdeep

Should it have been used at all? Maybe not. DU is inarguably a great penetrator, but we weren't exactly facing a large amount of quality enemy armor, even in the early part of the war. Did DU munitions help prevent any allied casualties? Maybe, but probably no more than a handful.


To add to this, M1 crewmen during the Gulf War stopped using Sabot rounds in exchange for HEAT (High Explosive, Anti Tank) rounds simply for the fact that the sabot, made from DU, cut through the armor of Iraqi T-72 and T-80 tanks so effectively that there was minimal signature to indicate that the vehicle had been destroyed.  The HEAT rounds were very effective in destroying enemy armor while providing a very..VERY clear indication that the round had destroyed it's target.  Even so, I believe that you take everything you can into combat.  DU rounds are effective at destroying most anything they are directed at and I support most anything that is going to kill the enemy before he kills me.  I don't care what's in the tube at the time.

~Thorns




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